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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Why does Disney seem to hate Luke?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Weavile, Jun 29, 2022.

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  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Nothing would have been wrong with making Kylo sympathetic if the film had bothered to actually make Kylo sympathetic. Instead it told us that we are supposed to sympathize with him because it is so hard to be a Skywalker and of course he could not help killing people. And then it threw Luke under the bus in order to give Kylo a “but he made me!” defense.

    I’m not buying that a 30 year old man can just become a mass murderer because his feelings were hurt and therefore he bears no responsibility for his own behavior—he is apparently entitled to act on every emotion he has, and if he behaves badly it is the fault of anyone who made him feel bad emotions.

    What you just described regarding how the film wants us to view Luke is exactly why I do not like the narrative around Luke. I refuse to hold him responsible for his adult nephew’s choices. Luke did not fail Kylo. Kylo failed Luke, his parents, his classmates and the rest of the galaxy, and that is solely on him.

    Kylo allegedly feeling bad about killing people does not make him sympathetic, especially since if he actually felt bad about it, he could stop. “Conflicted” means nothing to me. I did not have one iota of sympathy for Vader until the end of ROTJ when he started making better choices. I did sympathize with Anakin due to his background in the PT because unlike Kylo, he actually had a pretty rough childhood and had terrible things happen to him.
     
  2. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    It would have been an awesome arc. And one that would make a lot of sense. Since when is an arc for a character who is a role model and does the right thing boring? There was nothing heroic about Luke at the end of TLJ for me. It felt underwhelming, cheap, out of character and as if I was watching a different character, not Luke. How is the arc we got more nuanced? Nuance of a character arc doesn't depend on whether the character fails or not. It's the journey that matters. A good writer can write a Heroic Luke arc that is far more nuanced than what we got.

    No, what polarized the fanbase was a movie that was very much made with the intention to polarize the fanbase. It was a conscious decision. That's a strawman fallacy btw. Who said they wanted Luke to march in front of Snoke and save the day? Though in comparison, it would have had a lot more value and gravity than the Crait sequence.

    Strongly doubt that. The kiddos that watched these movies and were impressed by the visuals, the themes and the action, will have Rey and Finn as their role models, as evident by the costumes they wear on Halloween and in any other occasion. Some kiddos will even have Kylo Ren as someone to relate to, exactly like RJ wanted. Luke Skywalker will be seen as that old weird grumpy dude who gave Rey a hard time for no reason at all.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2022
  3. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    I agree that it was great to see Leia's character fleshed out a little more as a kiddo. I really appreciate that Kenobi and the books that Claudia Gray wrote about Leia for the New Canon have given insights into what her childhood on Alderaan could have been like and celebrated the relationship she had with her loving adoptive parents.

    I'm with you in that I wasn't a fan of what the ST did to Leia. Especially in TFA and TLJ. In TROS, I did like the glimpses of her being a Jedi Master/mentor to Rey. But moments like Leia slapping Poe across the face in TLJ were awful (a true lowpoint in the Star Wars saga for me) and TFA to me really regressed Leia back to being basically her ANH self. Her marriage to Han had failed, her New Republic had just gotten blown up, her only child turned to the Dark Side, and she was a Rebel (sorry, Resistance) leader again. Only now she was General instead of Princess. Even though General is arguably a lower rank/authority than Princess so I guess we could say she got demoted:p

    I think little Leia will resonate with young audiences (and really audiences of all ages). She had so many great moments and quotes in Kenobi. I will always love how she shot her pretentious cousin down with that line about not needing manners when talking to him when he tried to make fun of her for treating droids with respect. Way to go, Leia, and so easy to see how she grew into the person who in ANH didn't hesitate to put Tarkin and Vader in their places. =D=

    Yeah, I liked seeing Luke getting his time in the spotlight at the end of the show (and Owen and Beru also getting some attention as well was nice). That was fine to me, and I am not going to blame the Kenobi show for decisions that others made in the ST. I will be the first to say that I didn't like what was done with Luke in TLJ, for example, but what was done with Luke in Kenobi is different. I think Luke's character was treated with respect and sensitivity when he appeared on the screen in Kenobi, which is very different than how I feel about the treatment of Luke in TLJ, where I felt that he was disrespected in terms of depicted as dribbling milk all over when he drinks and sneaking into his nephew's bedroom like a total creep to try to murder his sleeping nephew with his lightsaber. Now that just made Luke look downright deranged in my opinion.

    I am trying to evaluate each Disney work on its own basis and merits. So I can love a depiction of Luke in Kenobi or Mandalorian (haven't gotten around to seeing the Book of Boba Fett show yet--so much to stream, so little time!) but be critical of what was done with Luke in the ST. To me, there are a lot of creatives at Disney producing a lot of different products, so I don't think it is fair to say that Disney as a whole hates Luke or that every Disney work has portrayed Luke in an insulting way. To me, some Disney products have been insulting in how they showed Luke, but others have not.

    I do think we will continue to see more heroic depictions of Luke as time progresses!

    Sansa is my favorite Game of Thrones character too! It's always great to learn someone else is a fan of her as well[face_dancing]

    Protecting Luke is a job Obi-Wan sets himself, but it doesn't have to be the only thing he does between ROTS and ANH. Leia has been kidnapped. There is no really compelling reason why Obi-Wan should prioritize protecting a Luke who hasn't been kidnapped (especially when Owen has made it clear that Obi-Wan is a persona non grata around the Lars homestead, a depiction of Owen that feels pretty consistent with Owen's attitude in ANH in my opinion) over rescuing a Leia who has been kidnapped (and may reveal herself to be Force sensitive, putting herself in even graver danger). Bail is right--no matter how much some Luke fans don't want to hear it and apparently take it as an insult to Luke even though it is not--that Leia is just as important as Luke. She is also Force-sensitive. She is also Anakin's child. The only reason Obi-Wan would have to see Luke as more important (a greater priority to protect) is if he is sexist and automatically assumes the boy twin is more special and important.

    Luke in ANH didn't seem to have a super high degree of familiarity with Ben Kenobi. Ben Kenobi just seemed to be this strange old hermit who lived in the area that he sort of knew, and ANH Owen doesn't seem to have been enthusiastic about cultivating any connection between Ben Kenobi and Luke. The Kenobi show does make it clear that Obi-Wan watched over Luke and that they did meet, but to me is pretty consistent with the impression I got from ANH that Luke and Ben Kenobi weren't super close prior to the events of ANH.

    That Leia quote from ANH frankly is already contradicted by the PT. If Leia is referring to Bail as her father there, Obi-Wan served the Republic but not Bail Organa in particular during the Clone Wars, and if Leia is referring to Anakin, the line also still isn't accurate because Obi-Wan served with Anakin during the Clone Wars, but he didn't serve Anakin during the Clone Wars. So after the PT the line doesn't make sense at all anyway.

    Kenobi didn't shun Luke. It showed him in multiple episodes and made it clear that Beru and Owen loved him like a son and were committed to protecting him, which was touching.

    You could say a lot of things that nobody would've thought about Star Wars before they were revealed. Like nobody would have thought after ANH that Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader were the same person and that Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker's father. Or that after watching Luke and Leia kiss in ESB, nobody would have thought that they were siblings, but then ROTJ comes along, and they are brother and sister now. Or after watching the OT nobody would have thought prior to the PT that it wasn't actually Obi-Wan who found Anakin but some new Jedi invented just for TPM named Qui-Gon Jinn. Someone could easily claim that Lucas must've hated Obi-Wan so much that he went to the trouble of bending canon to make Obi-Wan a liar or invented an outright new character (Qui-Gon) to take a role that arguably should've belonged to Obi-Wan (whereas the Kenobi show just already uses a major character from the OT in the role of a major character for the show rather than inventing a completely new character for Obi-Wan to rescue). Or even that Lucas must have hated Luke because he changed canon to have Luke kiss his own sister. Way worse than anything Luke did in Kenobi in my opinion.

    Leia might have died if Obi-Wan hadn't rescued her. Even a hero and Jedi like Obi-Wan can only do so much. What matters most to me is just that Obi-Wan consistently tries to do the right and heroic (the courageous and compassionate) thing even when the universe is at its darkest and the Empire at the height of its power. Obi-Wan never felt like a failure to me because he was trying to do the right thing under the circumstances, and I felt like I could understand his motivations and why he acted as he did.

    I guess I just see contradictions as part of the nature of Star Wars from ESB onward, so as long as the big picture tells a moving story, I do not sweat the details that do not fit neatly together too much. Nor did I really get the impression from ANH that Luke and Ben Kenobi were super close or that Owen would be a fan of any significant relationship developing between them. Whereas I found it believable that Bail might call on Obi-Wan's help if Leia was kidnapped, and that Obi-Wan would grant that help. I really just didn't see anything that made me think Luke was being insulted or that canon was being bent just to snub him in a way it never had been bent before prior to Disney[face_dunno]
     
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  4. Qui-Gon Keith

    Qui-Gon Keith Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 2015
    You do have a fair and valid point. But my take is this: Luke did do the right thing. At the end. He became the heroic Luke facing down the First Order and allow the Resistance to escape. Without him doing that, the Resistance would be kaput. I think folks really need to remember Luke's whole arc in TLJ and not just that part about him hiding in Ahch-To and waiting to die. It's the same as when fans complain about Obi-Wan's arc in OWK, saying he's not the same as before.

    Obi-Wan had to go through a journey of refinding his faith again and by the end of OWK, he did refind his faith. You can replace the words "Obi-Wan" with "Luke" and "OWK" with "TLJ" and it would be completely the same. You might disagree with this characterization between Obi in OWK and Luke in TLJ, that's fine. Agree to disagree. It's my take.

    I can also see how fans would look at Luke's mistakes with Ben as something an infallible hero like Luke could not have made. I've always believed Luke is not infallible. Even after ROTJ. So TLJ essentially gave us a Luke that has failed and made the worst mistake any uncle or Jedi would have made. He made it and he hid in Ahch-To. But Luke did not completely stayed there and refuse to help in the end. He did help. And in a big way that his legend spreads throughout the galaxy.



    Again, in my view, there were quite a number of fans who wanted Luke to take on Snoke in TLJ. If you weren't one of them, that's cool. But there were right here on this forum. Almost every day in the lead-up to TLJ's release you will see this somewhere here. I mean, if folks want Luke to be like Gandalf the White from LOTR (again a lot of fans here were pitching that as well), that completely flies in the face of SW's traditions of the master/mentor always dying and usually in a heroic way to save lives. Gandalf in "The Two Towers" and "Return of the King" represented a whole different arc because the audiences are seeing Gandalf in cinematic form for the first time and following the source material, Gandalf had to come back.

    But Luke had been away since 1983. Even Mark Hamill said at one point during the promotion of ROTJ back then that GL envisioned Hamill coming back as a sort of "Obi-Wan Kenobi-type' mentor character if Ep. VII, VIII, IX were ever made.

    Also, in my view, I do not think TLJ was made to polarize the fanbase. I recognized how polarized the fanbase was after TLJ but I do not think that was the intention. I think the problem was KK wanted to take a risk with TLJ and let RJ completely do his thing while she stood behind the director. That's not a bad thing for a Lucasfilm chief to do. I don't dare to presume what really went through KK's and RJ's heads, but I believe KK wanted to let RJ take a creative risk/gamble with TLJ & SW in general.

    But obviously TLJ has polarized the fanbase till this day and didn't recover. "Solo" was well-made but the irony was KK didn't want to take a creative risk with Phil Lord & Chris Miller with Han Solo and replaced them. That was a little strange.

    At the end of the day, the ST had to have a new generation of heroes. Every trilogy has it. And that was the prerogative for KK and Lucasfilm as a whole. Which comes to my next point:




    This I completely agree with you. Like myself and so many others of my generation, we grew up with the PT and the Clone Wars, so to me at least, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Padme, Ahsoka, Rex mean a great deal. I would also dare say that most of those that grew up with the OT and after the OT have Luke, Vader, Han, Leia, Lando, Chewie meant a great deal to them too. Every SW generation has their favorites. But here's the thing too: Star Wars is a Saga. I don't need to emphasize this here. So even though the PT generation grew up with the prequels, we obviously went back to watch the OT and love it to bits too.

    I don't know about the OT generation, but I'm pretty sure a big chunk of them hated the PT to the core. At least those that I know of. So to them, Star Wars is always the OT. That's fine.

    As for this new ST generation, I'm pretty sure they will head back to watch both the OT and the PT. Sure, they might still hold Rey, Kylo, Finn, Poe, Rose close to their hearts, but I guarantee you they will also love the earlier heroes and villains too. Only time will tell. But judging from how the PT is being embraced more positively now than back in 1999-2005 because that generation has grown up as adults now, the very same will happen with the ST.

    That's the SW version of the Circle of Life. =)
     
  5. Qui-Gon Keith

    Qui-Gon Keith Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 2015
    Also, judging from how Disney has given us the more-receptive ROTJ Luke in "The Mandalorian" and "The Book of Boba Fett", it's safe to say Disney doesn't really hate Luke Skywalker anymore. Disney is actually listening more to the fanbase with regards to Luke right now thanks to the TLJ polarization. And I'm all for that too.
     
  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I’m OT generation (I’m 50) and I liked TPM and AOTC as well as the first half of ROTS. I also did not care if Luke fought Snoke, or about Luke wanting to look at the Force as something beyond the Jedi.

    My bottom line is this: I don’t want Luke blamed in any way shape or form for behavior that Kylo chose of his own free will. I do not want Kylo to be able to use a “but he made me!” defense like a little kid, avoid responsibility for his own actions, and expect to be taken seriously by the audience.

    The opposite of Kylo being able to deflect responsibility is not “Luke being perfect or flawless.” And coddling Kylo the way the film does is not being “bold” or “taking a risk.”

    Nothing wrong with making new characters and giving them the spotlight—the Legends EU did that as well—but we should not have to leave our values regarding good behavior, personal responsibility, and healthy relationship dynamics at the door in order to enjoy the films, when “but think of X differently” has not been necessary to enjoy Star Wars for 45 years now.

    As far as new generations—my teenage sons were really into TCW when it was out and showed some interest in it again when Filoni wrapped up the series but that’s been the extent of their Star Wars interest. They watched the OT and PT over and over again when they were small but I would say TCW is “their” Star Wars. They saw the ST once each except for TFA which we saw twice when we all went to the theater but have not shown interest since. And if the ST is designed to exclude long time fans and their children in favor of bringing in entire families who have never seen Star Wars—that’s the problem right there. Long time fans are the ones who put the most money into it.
     
  7. Qui-Gon Keith

    Qui-Gon Keith Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 2015
    Do I really need to spell it out again that at the end of TLJ, Luke essentially faced Kylo and tried to redeem him like how Luke tried to redeem Vader in ROTJ? I'm not supporting the idea that Kylo's actions that entirely brought about by Luke, but that Luke himself felt responsible because he was his master and his uncle. It's the same way Obi-Wan himself felt responsible for Anakin's fall but it was really Anakin himself who was responsible. I also wrote a whole blog post about it if anyone is interested to read: (https://blogofobiwan.wordpress.com/...snt-mean-he-was-responsible-for-anakins-fall/)

    Kylo's POV was that Luke pushed him to it and even though we knew it was not true, we as an audience were supposed to feel with Luke's POV that he was responsible and be on that journey with him until the very end of TLJ when he became the Luke we knew and love. The audience can make any decision on his/her/their own whose POV they choose. I mean, if you don't feel that way, that's fine, agree to disagree.


    You know, these new Star Wars fans will also become the long-time fans eventually that put the most money into it. You and I will one day become one with the Force and Star Wars is still going to continue on and on for however long this Earth still exists. For the franchise to continue thriving, new fanbases and new kinds of fans have to be cultivated. I didn't speak for all of the generation that had "their SW", I merely said "most of the generation".

    I mean, if you feel that way, I can't really change your mind. But this kind of gatekeeping is really not very conducive to welcome new fans into the franchise. I can't claim to be there since 1977 since I wasn't born until a decade later. And I love SW because I love SW. I'm not really interested to look at it as "GL owned us this" or "Disney owned us that".

    At the end of the day, Star Wars is Star Wars is Star Wars. May the Force be with you.
     
  8. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I also never thought for a second that Obi-Wan was responsible for Anakin’s behavior nor would I have gotten on board with a movie that told me I was supposed to believe that. I’m not interested in points of view, I am interested in what actually happened, which is that both Kylo and Anakin became murderers despite having been taught better.


    It is not “gatekeeping” because new fans can be cultivated while still keeping the old ones, it is all about consistency across the trilogies and what time frame someone was introduced to Star Wars.

    ‘Old fans are going to die so **** them’ is not a helpful mentality for Disney to have, when most of us aren’t dying any time soon. I am not sure why it is such a problem to include kids whose parents showed them Star Wars on VHS/DVD/Blu-Ray rather than exclude them in favor of kids who have apparently lived under a pop culture rock and never heard of Star Wars when both would be new fans.
     
  9. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2017
    Rian isn’t saying the audience should blame Luke. Rey straight up says “you didn’t fail Kylo, Kylo failed you.” That’s what the hero of the story says. Isn’t that the message you said you want? the only people who blame Luke in the story are Ben and himself. Just like how Obi-Wan blamed himself for Anakin’s turn.

    and Luke doesn’t try to redeem Kylo Ren. Most badass line of all time:

    “have you come here to save my soul”

    “No.”
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2022
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  10. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Rey also hit Luke and asked him if he “created” Kylo.

    The “Kylo failed you” line of Rey’s would have been great if it had not seem to come in isolation with her other lines and her behavior towards both Luke and Kylo had not indicated that she either did not really believe that or did not care.
     
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  11. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2017
    The movie includes examples of both her anger at Luke and her disappointment in Kylo Ren for betraying his family. I don’t blame you for not thinking it’s well executed but I don’t think it’s inherently contradictory
     
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  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    She lost me by being stupid enough to actually think Luke “created” Kylo.
     
  13. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    So much of this.
    How exactly did Luke try to redeem Kylo Ren?

    He literally has never approached him since Kylo Ren burned his Academy (as far as we know) and he appears as a projection of himself, only to give him attitude and a smug behavior, with exactly zero desire to see if there's anything good left in Kylo. And you know, I will never defend Kylo Ren in anything, since he is a character that for me encompasses a lot of stuff that is wrong with society today, however..... the dude who is supposed to understand the mysteries of The Force better 30 years later and 30 years ago insisted that there was good in Vader (the galaxy's most terrorizing and brutal entity who had killed and tortured an immeasurable amount of people) somehow cannot even utter a single "Ben come with me" to his nephew, whose atrocities at this point have been a tiny fraction of Vader's? A lot of people like Luke on Crait, but to me his behavior and his words on Crait are one of the most "out of character" examples of his assassination in TLJ.
    I don't think anakinfansince1983 did any gatekeeping. She didn't exclude anyone from being able to enjoy Star Wars. Star Wars should be inclusive and should include old and new fans, boomers and babies, all colors, all genders, all sizes, all humans and aliens. She only commented on how the ST was made to cater to specific people, excluding what the older fans who have invested time, money, but most importantly love to the franchise, were hoping for.

    And I will add that we didn't want Luke to go all out and destroy entire starships and planets with a flick of his thumb. We just wanted a good, respectful story, and we feel that we didn't get one. And since this is the topic about Luke, well, I think we have a very strong case of how the ST was disrespectful to his character.

    Also, since you said "For the franchise to continue thriving, new fanbases and new kinds of fans have to be cultivated"...... the franchise can thrive and can generate new fanbases and new fans without throwing shade and diminishing the importance of the older content. Retcons are inevitable, but invalidating a bunch of very important messages, characters and themes that George Lucas showed us for 3 decades of his life is a little bit too much. Lucas didn't go all out with the Buddhist philosophy and his political commentary on Vietnam and the Middle East wars so that JJ can come and say "yeah the first movie is a homage to the original episode 4, the only Star Wars I liked as a kid" and then RJ can say "yeah I am a Star Wars fan but I will deconstruct everything cause it's fun - also, here, take this super toxic character and relate to him, and screw your Snoke theory ROFL lololol".

    All franchises change and evolve, but there is a core in each of them that most fans would agree needs to be preserved. Bringing new fans and new fanbases is not a good excuse for people to start making Star Wars entirely too different from what it has been for 3 decades for me personally. If Star Wars were ever to devolve into a brainless action franchise, I would stop watching - just giving an example.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2022
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  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    To be fair, Rey is in the dark about everything. It's why Luke needed to complete his training before being told the truth about Vader. Ben springs it on her and makes her doubt Luke. That's Sith manipulation 101.
     
  15. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 2, 2015
    I don’t think it’s the same. Vader or Palps never attempted to convince Luke that Obi-Wan, Yoda, the Jedi, or this or that, was to blame. I don't think the audiences either would buy a narrative where Luke honestly believed such obvious BS.

    Luke needed to complete his training so that he wouldn't give into the fear of losing his friends, which is what the OT Sith tried to maim him.

    Kylo’s “manipulation” of Rey was, narrative-wise, more like Palptine’s manipulation of Anakin in the PT. The main - and huge! - difference is that the latter happened over the course of 13 years. Kylo had one afternoon talk with Rey while shirtless and apparently that was enough to convince her. It was rather insulting, honestly.
     
  16. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I agree with the above post. It was like a meta narrative that the audience was expected to swallow. I didn't.
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I actually thought Anakin was pretty stupid in ROTS but he’s a genius compared to Rey in TLJ. There are only three ways to make sense of her behavior there:

    —Have enough faith in a vague vision that she says she had about Kylo being good, a vision that we did not see, and be willing to give Kylo enough of the benefit of the doubt ourselves to think there is one iota of goodness in him and that there would be reason for Rey to care

    —She is a complete idiot

    —She is so hormonal that all it takes is Kylo making a pouty face and taking his shirt off that she no longer cares that he is evil

    Or a combination of the above.

    So the audience has to have a default benevolent view of Kylo, which I never had for Vader prior to the end of ROTJ nor do I think we were asked to have, or a view that Rey being a moron is OK.
     
  18. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    We've discussed this, but Anakin had the reputation of being a war hero and Jedi Knight, as well as being Luke's father who he had always wondered about. And a dear friend to Obi Wan. We need to care about Kylo, because he's a Solo and handsome. That's it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
  19. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012
    I have to respectfully disagree AFS1983. I think Rey is a naive individual who is shaped by her life experiences at the time of TFA. The same can be said for young Anakin in TPM.

    In general, I hate using the descriptive term "idiot" or "stupid" because it does not accurately or adequately describe ones actual mental state. For instance (used for illustrative purposes only), calling a certain hypothetical orange skinned politician an "idiot" does not fully describe the level of mental incompetence or lack of intelligence he or she may suffer from. My point being that calling someone an idiot or stupid is overly simplistic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
  20. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    But is Rey naive? She is shown to be a loner, a gritty survivor at the start of TFA. She doesn't just fall for Unkar Plutt's cons.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2022
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  21. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    I never really got that impression that Rey was naive.
     
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  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Vader tells Luke the truth, which casts doubt on Obi-Wan's honesty. Yoda tells him that he would have been told when they felt he was ready to know, believing he wouldn’t have understood due to a lack of understanding. That is the similarity. More notable is Palpatine's lies.
     
  23. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    She was canny enough in her own world, but that world was very narrow and limited. Outside of that, she had a lot to learn about life, the galaxy, and everything.
     
  24. Bee Bee

    Bee Bee Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 23, 2015
    Off topic, but "Life, the Galaxy, and Everything" sounds like a best-selling self-help book sold in the SW universe.
     
  25. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    On the cover it says DON'T PANIC in friendly yellow letters.
     
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