main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Challenge Angstmongers Anonymous | Angst Challenge & Discussion Thread | ANGSTOBER is here!

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by ViariSkywalker, Sep 5, 2022.

  1. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Lots of great discussion going on here!

    I should note that I am glad angst authors are allowed to be happy in this thread[face_dancing]because I do feel that I am a fairly upbeat person generally. So it is probably a case where my anxieties, fears, and negativity all get channeled into my angst writing.

    I think the question of how far is too far and how dark is too dark is a very pertinent question with such personal answers. For me, a sense that there is a meaning and purpose behind the darkness is essential. Nihilism is one of my least favorite philosophies so that most likely explains while I might have a character endure sort of existential crises, I tend to have the character and/or story end with some meaning or purpose in and behind existence even if the characters and/or story don't always clearly articulate exactly what that meaning or purpose is. But I ultimately always hope that readers come away from my works feeling that they have explored a bit more of what it means to human, and this exploration of what it means to be human for me ends up presupposing to an extent that there is some meaning behind being human. Which ends up translating to nihilism not being compatible with my writing. Even with my angst writing.

    In terms of my personal writing, I don't tend to write grimdark, but I don't necessarily have a quarrel with the genre as a whole. What can rub me the wrong way is when grimdark is treated as realistic when to me grimdark is arguably as much about a distortion of reality as happily ever after fairy tale is. It's just twisting reality in the opposite direction of dark and depressing rather than light and happy. Also, realistic is such a large range, because if human history and psychology have taught us anything, it is just how broad a range of behavior can happen and therefore be considered "realistic." So, yeah, I really am not a fan of the notion that grimdark equals realism. Realism to me should be just ring true to life in some way. As long as it does that, I consider it to be realistic. Not that all literature or art should have to be realistic or has to strive to be that. Some of my favorite stories are wildly fantastical. And sometimes I like my angst to not necessarily be realistic. Grimdark to me as a writer is just too far along the dark and depressing scale for me to want to write it. I prefer my angst writing to be shades of gray rather than straight-up grimdark if that makes sense.

    As far as the Hunger Games series goes, I did enjoy that series. I think one of the things I liked about it, though, was that it sort of felt like a critique of the glorification of violence. And I do feel that some of the YA novels that sought to ride the Hunger Games wave of popularity sort of twisted that message into glorifying violence, which ended up to me having the opposite message as Hunger Games intended.

    For my wonderfully gothic challenge quote, I do have a bit of inspiration so now it is on my flighty muse to translate that lightning bolt of inspiration into actual fanfic. Which I guess is the perennial struggle and angst of the fanfic writer with a flighty muse (aka myself):p
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2022
  2. Mira_Jade

    Mira_Jade The (FavoriteTM) Fanfic Mod With the Cape star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2004
    And we cling to that, believe you me. :p

    Fair! :p I do love me some Pining Idiots and Not Actually Unrequited tropes, in particular. I suppose that technically qualifies as a sort of angst all by itself, at least, from a certain point of view. [face_thinking] [face_mischief]

    THIS!!

    Also, I had "Do You Hear the People Sing?" stuck in my head for the rest of the day and it was glorious, so thank you! [:D]

    (VI! THERE NEEDS TO BE AN ANGSTY BROADWAY MEDLEY ROULETTE SOMEWHERE DOWN THE LINE, TOOOO! [face_hypnotized] [face_mischief] [face_whistling])

    brodie!! It's always wonderful to have you out of lurking! You got one of my favorite quotes out of the lot, too. I hope that it proves to be inspiring! [face_love]

    [:D] [:D]

    Amen to this! I'm reserving a lot of judgment on GRRM until he actually finishes ASoIaF (knock on wood), but yeah. Everyone tries to be him and falls wildly off the mark. (I'm looking at you, ST. o_O)

    [face_hypnotized] [face_hypnotized] [face_hypnotized]

    Oh my goodness, this is so dark and ugly and awful and I love it. [face_devil] (I find myself saying that a lot about your work, though. [face_mischief] [:D])

    I really appreciate this, too! =D= I tend to be a bit more willing to read angst - even the deep and dark stuff - in fanfiction, when I don't tolerate it so well in my profic. Writing in this format is low stakes to let you explore those ideas and concepts and ramifications. Especially when your character of choice is an angry psychic hate wizard. [face_mischief]

    *takes a bow*

    I do try. [face_batting]

    The good thing about angst is that it lingers. [face_mischief] I hope you're feeling better today, though, and having fun inflicting all of the pain on your characters. ;) [face_love] [:D]
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2022
  3. Gabri_Jade

    Gabri_Jade Fanfic Archive Editor Emeritus star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2002
    It's okay, Mira, I live in Phoenix. Here we say, "at least we had Larry Fitzgerald" :p

    You'd better believe it! That's an angst subcategory, and it's a glorious one [face_love]

    Mira, the tenth anniversary concert at the Royal Albert Hall! The finale with all the Valjeans! SO AMAZING

    SECONDED

    lolololololol accurate

    Yeah, honestly, my tolerance is a lot less for the pro stuff. I can still handle some real heartbreakers when it's done well (The Book Thief omgomgomg), but the stakes are so much lower with fanfic. I really loved that Rebels laid the foundation for a SW multiverse, but we fanficcers have been doing that for decades. Between my own stories and wips and the ones I read, I have hundreds of different canons in my head at any given time. I find it gives you the emotional space to absorb and process the angst with less lasting actual angst. Best case scenario, really :p
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2022
  4. vader_incarnate

    vader_incarnate Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Omg I didn't know how much I needed an angsty Obi-Wan / Satine fic to "The Elephant Love Medley" till right this second? But the movie version, not the Broadway one

    (I have more thoughts, that was just the most urgent one)
     
  5. vader_incarnate

    vader_incarnate Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2002
    New thought: "Come What May," though.

    I like that. Because yeah - sometimes things suck. And it's easy to get caught up in that, especially if you're a fantasy writer trying to accurately portray medieval fantasy or something (cough GRRM) but there are bright spots, too. People have small triumphs and bright spots even in bleak times, and ignoring those is inherently dishonest.

    Yes! I think a lot of the ones that came after took the bones (dystopian future society, proletariat vs. ruling class, love triangle) without really examining what made them good. Collins did a great job portraying the trauma and PTSD that the Hunger Games would have on the people who competed in it, and how viscerally awful and tragic a competition like that would be. I thought they did a pretty good job with the movies showing this, too, but I ... don't think I saw the last one. Hmm.

    Maybe one of these days. :p Waiting on him and Patrick Rothfuss to release their next books. And Pierce Brown, who also does different flavor of grimdark but it's sci-fi and has a spoonful of hope.

    One of my favorite authors who I think does grimdark well is Joe Abercrombie. His world is dark but his prose is hilarious and you find yourself snorting at the most inappropriate times. But the two trilogies he's released so far both end on a very very bleak note.

    [face_rofl]

    I write a great and terrible Vader. All shall love him and despair. :p Probably not love him, he's awful. Understand him?

    Speaking of which - just posted my Gothic literature roulette challenge response. It's about my angry psychic hate wizard and ... it's pretty bleak!
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2022
  6. Mira_Jade

    Mira_Jade The (FavoriteTM) Fanfic Mod With the Cape star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2004
    *high fives in commiseration*

    THE BEST! [face_hypnotized] The entire tenth anniversary ensemble is my favorite cast, though. You can't beat them; god tier, all! [face_love]

    &
    THE MOTION CARRIES! [face_mischief] [face_batting]

    (Also: hee, Ewan McGregor and his Satines. :p ;))

    I swear, I do spit-takes so often reading your comments. I need to start mentally preparing myself. [face_laugh] 8-} [:D]

    I almost forgot that we were here to discuss angst with all of the fun we've been having, and you certainly reminded me. That's . . . wow. [face_hypnotized] :eek: A+ work all around! :_| [face_plain] =D=
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2022
  7. ViariSkywalker

    ViariSkywalker Kessel Run Hostess Extraordinaire star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    I'll be back to comment on some of the more serious angst-related topics, but for now, here's the lighter stuff. ;) :p

    You killed Ben, Gabri. Itty bitty precious baby Ben!!! :_| :_| :_| Considering your reaction to the vivisection and general emotional trauma of minors, I'm not exactly sure how you managed to write PoL because yikes doesn't begin to cover it. o_O

    YAAAAAASSS, DO THE THING. [face_hypnotized] [face_mischief]

    I'm going to echo Elli here, absolutely both. :D What could be more fun than combining such seeming opposites? We definitely picked the right fandom for both. ;)

    Aw, thank you! [:D] I'm feeling much better today, and I've enjoyed reading everyone's comments here and over on Elli's angst bomb fic. [face_mischief] I've even done a bit of writing today on my drabbles and hope to do some more, and I plan to inflict all the pain indeed... [face_devil]

    My gosh, I sound so sadistic. :p

    You gotta admire his ability to rock a cape, if nothing else. :cool:

    Our first official challenge response, yay!!! [face_dancing] [face_dancing] It's now linked in the index and everything. [face_batting]

    I'm grabbing this quote because there are too many of you. :p [face_laugh] It's been added to the list, and I'm sure I'll be relying on you ladies for your expertise, as my own Broadway knowledge is rather limited. (*gasp*)

    It isn't 24/7 angst in our world, but when there's angst to be had, run for cover. [face_mischief]
     
  8. Nehru_Amidala

    Nehru_Amidala Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2016
    I have a thing for romantic angst, Edward Scissorhands, Ten and Rose, the list goes on!

    Oh, and A****aka and San!
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2022
  9. Gabri_Jade

    Gabri_Jade Fanfic Archive Editor Emeritus star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2002
    I did not! I picked up the story after he was killed! The NJO was bleak like that! Moon also wrote a bleak post-NJO vig - oh, wait, Luke and Mara and Ben were all still alive in hers, never mind :p [face_mischief]
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2022
  10. Mira_Jade

    Mira_Jade The (FavoriteTM) Fanfic Mod With the Cape star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2004
    What does it say that my first thought was I'm excited to read whatever you come up with? :p (Probably something along the lines that it's a good thing I'm here for an AA meeting. [face_mischief] [face_whistling])

    This is a fact. ;) [face_mischief]

    AMEN to this.

    [face_rofl] [face_rofl] [face_rofl]

    Oh, we've got you covered! C'mon, gals, let's pelt Vi with all of the angsty greats from the stage. [face_mischief] [face_devil]

    (I have a PoTO right in the feels gif that I can't find anywhere that's perfectly appropriate for this, too - it's saved to my phone, but it's not on giphy. ANYWAY. Yeah, theater and angst. It's like peanut butter and jelly. They just go together. ;))
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2022
  11. Nehru_Amidala

    Nehru_Amidala Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2016
    I am working on my story right now, nothing better than starting off your story with "Norwegian Wood".
     
  12. Kahara

    Kahara FFoF Hostess Extraordinaire star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2001
    @Nehru_Amidala , someone else who enjoys being emotionally destroyed by Studio Ghibli films. *high five*
     
    ViariSkywalker and Nehru_Amidala like this.
  13. Nehru_Amidala

    Nehru_Amidala Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2016
    That and Tim Burton!
     
    Kahara likes this.
  14. ViariSkywalker

    ViariSkywalker Kessel Run Hostess Extraordinaire star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    And I picked up EtF after Luke and Leia and Mara and Han and Jaina and Jag and Wedge and... and...

    Okay, I'll cede this point. [face_whistling]

    [face_rofl]

    Yes. That. [face_mischief]

    (Also, this week will likely be a certain other young trash lord...)

    I foresee a PM full of angsty theatrical goodness in my future. :p [face_batting]
     
  15. Gabri_Jade

    Gabri_Jade Fanfic Archive Editor Emeritus star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2002
    Shocker :p

    The Trash Lord Guild is a great foundation for angst, there's no denying that :p

    *hums "A Little Fall of Rain"*
     
  16. Nehru_Amidala

    Nehru_Amidala Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2016
    I present my entry:

    Mononoke

    It's a Thrawn/Leia fic with all sorts of Gothic vibes. I am pleased how it turned out!
     
  17. Findswoman

    Findswoman Fanfic and Pancakes and Waffles Mod (in Pink) star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2014
    Hi everyone! @ViariSkywalker , take care of yourself and feel better soon! <3 It’s great to see this thread up and running; as I see it, there can never be too many challenge and discussion threads to inspire and encourage! Great looking first challenge, too; I’d be curious to try my hand with no. 10, if that’s all right. (Hope it won’t be a problem if it ends up happening post-deadline; real life and all!)

    Just by way of a brief introduction, I guess I could probably call myself an occasional angstmongerer. I am pretty eclectic in my writing and reading tastes and am equally at home with fluffy humor and serious drama, and my own body of stories runs all across that spectrum. If I’m in the right mood, I can take great pleasure—and great catharsis—in a good sad tale, particularly when there is (as has been said) a hopeful or at least a comforting ending.

    One angst sub-area that I’ve touched on now and then is stories that mix humorous/happy and serious/angsty elements, which (again) if I’m in the right mood can be a wonderful “best of both worlds” kind of thing. I know other writers here who have done that to good effect, as we see with @vader_incarnate ’s dad jokes and some of @ViariSkywalker ’s Chaos Twins stories; anyone else?
     
  18. Kahara

    Kahara FFoF Hostess Extraordinaire star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2001
    Okay, told myself I wouldn't but I'll have unlucky number 11. ;)

    I also enjoy angst that is mixed in with other moods/genres, though a quick browse of all the things I've liked in the last week would be enough to show that I will also absolutely drink that stuff straight from the carton in its purest form. :p As far as writing goes, angst tends not to be the main thing that I'm going for (with some exceptions!) but if something a tad angsty seems to me like it belongs then I'll add it even if the overall mood of the story is more on the fluffy side.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2022
  19. ViariSkywalker

    ViariSkywalker Kessel Run Hostess Extraordinaire star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Got it in the index! Great to see the positive reception to this challenge so far. :D

    Aw, thank you! I'm feeling much better after a restful weekend. :) And we're so glad to have you here with us! [:D]

    Post-deadline entries are always welcome! The challenges in this thread are currently non-voting, so right now the due date is more a guideline than a hard and fast rule. ;) It's fun to have us all working toward the same goal at once, but anyone is welcome to join in at any time and go at their own pace.

    With that said, here is your quote!

    10. “I am the chief of sinners, I am the chief of sufferers also.” (Robert Louis Stevenson, The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde)​

    [face_mischief]

    You're certainly not alone in this! And I definitely agree that a hopeful or comforting ending can make all the difference at the end of a particularly sad story. SW is all about that sense of hope, which I'm sure is part of what drew a lot of us to it in the first place. [face_love]

    Yes! I know I personally get a weird sort of enjoyment out of stories that toe that line. As you already know, I absolutely love characters like HK-47 (such a gloriously irreverent murder droid) for their ability to bridge that divide.

    Aw, I'm honored by this mention! [face_blush] I do enjoy playing with the juxtaposition of humor and darkness with the twins, it's true. And if we're talking about stories that combine angst with heartwarming and/or happy moments, I have to submit @Gabri_Jade's fic Renewal and @Mira_Jade's Song!verse version of Darth Maul as great examples of how to handle that duality. [face_batting] [:D]

    [face_laugh] [face_mischief] Welcome! For your quote, you have received:

    11. “Love is like a tree: it shoots of itself; it strikes its roots deeply into our whole being, and frequently continues to put forth green leaves over a heart in ruins.” (Victor Hugo, The Hunchback of Notre Dame)​

    [face_batting]

    [face_laugh] I think that's true for a lot of us here! [face_tee_hee]

    Exactly. That's the thing about angst, it doesn't have to be all or nothing! As with so many things in life, it's finding the right balance. Sometimes a story doesn't call for angst, or maybe just a tad, and that's fine! Other times the angst has to be free to angst, and that's fine, too. [face_mischief]
     
  20. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    My fellow masters of angst, my muse has managed to write a story for my assigned quote for the Gothic Quote Roulette Challenge that features the bonus words of aberrant, apparition, and ambivalent[face_dancing]

    It is a High Republic fic focusing on the fascinating Orla Jareni, although please be aware that it is built around information revealed in Kiersten White's Padawan, so if you wish to avoid spoilers, I recommend reading that wonderful book first and then coming back to read my humble fan fiction offering.

    A World of Strange Wonders
     
  21. ViariSkywalker

    ViariSkywalker Kessel Run Hostess Extraordinaire star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Awesome to see another response come in! :D [face_mischief] I have you in the index! [face_batting]



    Now that we’ve all gotten to know each other a little better (at least as far as our collective angstmonger status is concerned), there’s another topic I’d like to explore a little (read: see everyone write sprawling essays about), which has already been touched on a bit in some of your posts, particularly this one by @devilinthedetails:

    Discussion #2

    Okay, so… depictions of violence, particularly the different ways that writers approach violence in their stories. What are some ways that they differ, where do we draw the line, and what does that mean for our own writing? Like devilinthedetails said, The Hunger Games is in many ways a critique of the glorification of violence in media, while some of the books that followed in its footsteps either missed that message or didn’t know how to convey it in an effective way. I'm curious to know how you guys feel about how this contrast has played out in your own reading and writing choices.

    Discuss! ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2022
  22. vader_incarnate

    vader_incarnate Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Good topic, I need to marinate in my answer
     
  23. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    I agree! It is a great topic! My two cents:

    I think that my overall values and experiences as a person strongly influence how I like to see violence and gore (which to me is strongly related to violence) depicted in books and other media, which in terms shapes how I tend to treat violence and gore in my own writing.

    I am a very pacifistic person in general. The peacemaker and diplomat in my family. My co-workers and colleagues tend to call me one of the sweetest people they've ever met and joke that if someone manages to make me mad, they've probably made everybody else absolutely furious by that point. Which probably explains the special spot that peaceful Star Wars worlds like Naboo and Alderaan have in my heart (and in my Star Wars fanfic too). It also likely is why a character like Padme who has a commitment to peace and only reluctantly goes to war when she feels like all other avenues of obtaining justice for her people have failed resonates with me, and why I might be drawn to write her quite a bit in my fanfics.

    Anyway, because I am quite a pacifist by nature (ironic for a fan of Star Wars, I suppose:p), that molds the kind of depictions of violence that I like to read and by extension write. I tend to be skeptical of violence as an answer to problems (I'm more likely to think of it as causing problems or making existing problems even worse) so I feel like I either need to be strongly convinced that violence is justified because the opponent is so evil that resisting them is obviously righteous, which results in a fairly straightforward, black and white story from a morality perspective, or else I need to get a grittier, more morally gray conflict that delves into the horrors of violence and tends to show neither side as being totally in the right. The former works for me, because to use Star Wars as an example again, the Empire is shown to be so evil by blowing up a world like Alderaan, that I don't have to feel at all bad about cheering when Luke Skywalker blows up the Death Star. I can be like, "Haha, serves you right, Empire!" Whereas, the latter works for me because I can sort of sit back and offer all the rather cliched observations about how horrible warfare and violence is.

    For a straightforward, black and white story, I don't feel like I need or want to see that much gore in the violence. To use Star Wars as an example again, even when limbs get chopped off, there doesn't tend to be a ton of on screen blood shown. And torture of characters like Han or Leia in the OT isn't too graphic. One gets the sense of the evilness of the empire without it going to a level where parents on a whole would have to be hesitant about showing the movies to their kids. Which helps Star Wars be considered a family-friendly franchise with general audience appeal.

    For something that is a little grittier and morally gray, I am more okay with things getting more graphic depending on factors like the genre of the material and the target audience of the material. Like if something is marketed as grimdark fantasy or horror, I would expect more violence of a potentially graphic nature than if it is traditional quest fantasy or a fun adventure novel. Also, if something is marketed for an adult audience, I obviously treat that differently than if it is written for middle grade children. I can read Game of Thrones, but I would never put it in the hands of a fifth-grader, basically.

    That being said, I do have a great deal of respect for authors who can convey the horrors of violence without getting too graphic or gory. As an example, currently, I am going through a phase where I am reading a lot of Agatha Christie mysteries. Many of her mysteries are centered around a murder or multiple murders, but I don't find that her writing is especially gory or graphic. It will more focus on the facts surrounding the murder, allowing the readers to piece together the clues of the mystery. Also, there is exploring of the psychological element of murder in terms of the whys behind murder. The question of what motivates people to commit murder. So, while there has to be violence at the heart of a murder mystery, Agatha Christie books don't feel too graphic or gory to me. I more feel like the violence is a channel for exploring human psychology and for working the reader's little gray cells as Hercule Poirot would so aptly phrase it.

    To transition into talking about my own writing, I would say that I don't tend to depict a ton of violence in my stories. In part because I don't tend to write a lot of action/adventure stories, and normally when I write my angst, it is more to describe the aftermath of violence in terms of the psychological and emotional fallout, which can be thematically heavy and intense, but does not end up being super graphic or gory. It just in general isn't my style to be too graphic or gory with violence. Psychology and thematic elements intrigue me more as a writer, and so end up being what I focus on in my pieces. Especially my angst since that is the true topic of this thread.

    If I do depict a violent society, it is usually to condemn the violent and often imperialistic nature of that society. That could be seen when I write about the Fire Nation in my Avatar the Last Airbender peices, for example. I depict the Fire Nation as a violent and imperialistic society during the reign of someone like Ozai, but I do so to critique that society. To show how destructive both to its own citizens it is as well as to the other societies in the world that it is attacking and targeting for destruction. So the intent for me is never to glorify the violent elements of that society. More to show the pitfalls of that violent society. Which works very well with a fandom like Avatar the Last Airbender because the themes and stories of that franchise are very pacifistic and non-violent in nature. A main point of Avatar the Last Airbender is how often violence and vengeance are not the right answer, and that healing and forgiveness is more important and empowering.

    And if I do have a heroic character confronting an evil like the Jedi often do, I will often have that character seek to resolve the situation through diplomacy and negotiation first, and if violence does break out, my heroic character (usually a Jedi) will only fight in defense of life and light to borrow the High Republic era slogan. So hopefully that shows that diplomacy and negotiation is preferable to violence, and that violence can only be justified in very limited circumstances against an extreme evil like the Sith or the Empire. I try to show that it is not lightsabers that make Jedi heroic but their commitment to peace, justice and service. They are champions of the Light side of the Force because of that, not because they wield lightsabers.

    So, bascially, I hope my writing can advocate for peace, diplomacy, forgiveness, and healing, while exposing a lot of the pain and trauma that violence can create. Sometimes I will explore the psychological and emotional fallout of violence, but usually I prefer not to get too graphic or gory about it. It's the ideas and emotions more than the bloodshed I am interested in exploring in my writing.

    So I think my writing testifies to the fact that I am a pacifist and so do my reading preferences. Now I am done psychoanalyzing myself[face_laugh]
     
  24. Gabri_Jade

    Gabri_Jade Fanfic Archive Editor Emeritus star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2002
    I have basically no tolerance for violence. I am the sort of person who covers her eyes if there's a realistic fistfight in a movie. SW and MCU-typical violence is pretty much as far as I will ever go with visual media. (Maybe The Hunger Games movies were worse? But also, I covered my eyes at points in those movies too, so...) Vi has been very kindly teaching me the ways of X-Men movies (everyone's got a blind spot in their geekery :p ) and I like them so far, but I went into that endeavor saying straight out "I will never ever watch Logan, I don't care how great a story it is, I'll read the wiki entry." It's too much for me. I have a slightly higher tolerance for violence in the written word, but I still won't go very far with it. GoT? Hahahaha no never not a chance. I know I'm an outlier, and I'm not telling anyone else what to watch or read. This is just where I am with it.

    That does mean that I personally will include minimal violence in my writing, and never graphic. But whether I'm reading or writing, I'm not going to handwave violence away in a situation where it's realistic - not justified, I'd like to clarify. A good story can contain unjustified violence. Alderaan, for example. What interests me more from a storytelling perspective is what that violence tells us about the characters in question, how it affects them, what the repercussions are.

    And for me, just as important as the level of violence is whether it's a well-handled, necessary point of the story, or gratuitous. Personally, I think that Stover is excellent at facing up to the reality of the violence in the GFFA and how that plays out and how it affects everyone it touches. On the other side of that ledger, I think that Denning was always gratuitous about it. There were a lot of scenes in his books that I cringed through because it felt very much like he was just including a gory play-by-play because he could. It added nothing to the story, it told us nothing about the characters, it didn't affect the direction of the narrative. He just put a zoom lens on the actual physical process of violence and lingered there for no narrative reason. I hate that.

    Stover shows violence on occasion and doesn't shy away from it - to the extent that I hesitate to read his original SFF even though I love his writing, because I suspect that without the constraints of what SW considers acceptable, it would be too much for me even done the way he handles it - but he shows that violence because it's an intrinsic part of the story he's telling. He doesn't stay focused on the violence itself. And he shows the aftereffects. One of my favorite examples of that is the final chapter of Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, where Luke resigns his commission over an act of violence he committed. Within the context of the story, it was a necessary act of violence. Luke took it seriously, tried to find other options, only did it when it was a last resort. It was nothing the NR was going to punish him for. But it was enough for Luke to end his military career on his own, because he'd had enough, because he was haunted by the things he'd had to do, and he didn't want to be in that position any longer.

    So, yeah, that's my SW example of a good way to handle violence contrasted with a bad way to handle violence.

    This is just me, but I prefer that basically none of my stories, either reading or writing, are purely black and white. I honestly loved that moment in the last episode of season one of The Mandalorian where the shuttle pilot tells Cara Dume that he had friends on the Death Star. And then Cara, the good guy, winds up shooting the man dead. Yes, he was an Imperial, the bad guy, and we'd just seen him kill the other pilot and he was holding the doctor hostage - but was killing the only option? Cara's gun didn't have a stun setting?

    That's an example of handling the gray areas well in a story, if you ask me. The bad guy was very bad, and still made a valid point. The good guy had fought on the righteous side of that war and was on a rescue mission, but still killed someone unnecessarily - it could be argued, just because he'd taunted her about her own losses during that war. The episode doesn't tell us who to sympathize with, it simply presents that complex, nuanced situation, plays it out in the way that makes the most sense for the narrative and the characters, and moves on. The viewer is left to decide how they feel about it.

    One of my own vigs addresses Luke's destruction of the Death Star, and was directly inspired by that last chapter of Mindor where Luke was so haunted by the violence he'd been a part of. I set up a scenario where Luke and Mara wind up discussing the violence they'd both committed, Luke for the Rebels and Mara for the Empire. They were both completely convinced at the time that they were doing the right thing. Luke, at least, still looks back and doesn't see how he could have done anything else. But the effects of that violence will never leave either of them, and years later they're still dealing with that.

    On a very broad scale, yes, the Empire was bad and the Rebellion was good. But let's look a little closer, get into the details. There were over a million people on the Death Star. How many of them were conscripts? How many were people who'd signed up voluntarily but might have defected later? Leia and Bail and Mon Mothma were Imperial senators. Han, Wedge, Tycho, Hobbie, Madine, and a whole heck of a lot of other Rebels defected from the Empire. Even Agent Kallus from Rebels, who was with the freaking ISB, eventually defected. Look at Reva in the Obi-Wan show. Look at Mara. Look at the division of Anakin himself, how he started out, what he became, how he ended. Meanwhile, in Rogue One Cassian cold-bloodedly shoots his informant after he gets the information he needs, so that the Empire can't get it too. There are a lot of messy examples like that on both sides. The black and white morality play of SW has many, many complications and contradictions and shades of gray once you start scaling down. From a narrative standpoint, that's what's interesting to me.

    And as far as writing, I guess that's where I tend to land. I'm not going to write violent acts themselves if I can avoid it, but I love writing character studies, and since all of the SW characters have been touched by violence in some way, I want to explore that aspect. Not the violence, but how it affects the characters, the regrets they live with, or don't, or try to convince themselves they don't have; whether they heal and to what extent and how, or whether they try to deny there ever was an effect and keep plowing ahead because to admit they were ever wrong would demand too great a psychological expenditure.

    But then, everything with me is a character study, so obviously that's where I'd go with it :p
     
  25. vader_incarnate

    vader_incarnate Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2002
    I literally just wrote a gory and violent death scene a few hours ago. :p I called it *checks* um, "a furiously realized catharsis," and in terms of the narrative, I think it makes sense there to show the headspace this character is in, and as a culmination of a series of events that lead to it. I don't think it's gratuitous? But now I kinda want to read it again and check.

    I went through a massive grimdark fantasy phase a few years ago, maybe when GoT first started airing. Mark Lawrence's Prince of Thorns, Joe Abercrombie's The First Law, Robin Hobbs' Farseer Trilogy ... they're all fantastic, and maybe my reading habits have somewhat informed my writing choices. I think I have a stronger stomach for violence and for grimdark than others do, at least from the responses here. I do really enjoy a gray narrative, and the choices of the protagonists when there's no right or easy answer.

    I think I saw a tag on AO3 recently that was something like "bad guys doing bad things" and - like, yeah, valid. Part of writing is showing rather than telling, and one of the things I really enjoy about Rebels in particular is how it shows how the Empire was Bad. Like not just to Rebels and perceived traitors, but to average people who just want to live normal lives. Writing the bad thing shouldn't be taken as endorsement of the bad thing, and can definitely be read as a critique and judgement of the person or society doing it.

    Oh yeah, don't watch Logan, it's wonderful, but it's a lot. :p

    Yes, that. And like, my first SW example of this is going to be Vader, because of course it is: TPM establishes slavery on Tatooine as absolutely awful and traumatizing, and slavery should inherently be read as violent. The creatively terrible sci-fi concept of exploding slave chips embedded in a person's body to prevent escape? I don't know if I have an overactive imagination (yes, probably) or George didn't fully think out the implications here (arguably) but that's, like, yikes on several horrific bikes. That's absolute nightmare fuel, and that's going to have massive repercussions on Anakin's and later Vader's psyche.

    I LOVE Stover's non-SW books, and yes, they have creatively over-the-top grimdark violence - and yes it's definitely an intrinsic part of the story he's telling.

    Oh, I have a PT example: the Tusken camp massacre vs. Order 66.

    The Tusken massacre from the PT comes from a weird colonialist standpoint where these Backwards Native People kidnap and torture a random woman (from their perspective) to further Anakin's character development and the narrative - but why, George, why? It's absolute overkill: it tries to foreshadow Anakin's descent into Vader but shows him doing something way worse than anything Vader did onscreen in the OT, and THEN somehow it immediately after forgets about the wholesale slaughter of the women and children too to reset Anakin back to his previous level of morality in a way that completely undermines the eventual culmination of his arc with the slaughter of younglings in Order 66.

    *deep breath* I love the PT, but it takes a lot of legwork to love it. And we spend so much time on Tatooine, but I have so many issues with the way George handles violence there, as embodied in the half-finished slavery storyline and the Tusken massacre. :p

    Anyway, in contrast, Order 66 gets revisited so much in recent SW media, but it's important, and I understand why they do it; it's an important part of the story in transitioning from Anakin to Vader, from PT to OT, and it never seems gratuitous because it shows us something new every time, about one character or another

    (unless you just write a drabble set about a clan of younglings dying, that might be gratuitous, Elli)

    (stop it, Elli, you can't just insert self-referential italicized parentheticals into a meta post)

    I think the official SW Twitter (?) recently tweeted something about it being impossible to stay out of politics, because 'Wars' is in the name; it's on the label, it's automatically going to be violent and political, and ... yeah. It touches every corner of the GFFA in some way, and for so many of the characters I like to read/write about, the way that violence touched them is just a core part of their identity that makes them who they are.

    I was trying to write a happy AU story a while ago and just hit a brick wall because I was just ... flummoxed, because I don't know what some of these characters would be like without their angst and trauma. What's an intrinsic character trait, and what character traits would this character not have if they weren't a slave / taken by the Jedi or Sith at an early age / lost their parents / been a victim of imperialist oppression? Who knows?