ST Palpatine "Gran Palpa" Discussion Thread

Well, difference for me is I always liked the PT and still do today. Whereas I liked the ST at first but it has aged poorly already.

I think this largely stems from the fact that the PT and OT had a vision, albeit one that changed and adapted greatly over the decades they were produced. The PT took the story and aesthetic in new directions but it largely served and enriched the OT if you accepted the films. There was replay value to them. The ST not so much. Objectively, by design, there was no real intended message in the ST. Arguably enjoyable films but zero grand vision. It’s such a wasted opportunity.

 

The PT enriched the OT as long as you were happy with what they did. otherwise, you will see it as having ruined the OT.

Although the difference with the PT is that if people didn't like their extension of lore, they just chose to ignore they existed. After all the PT was mostly recast characters and a totally different look. While the ST has its hands into the OT the way the PT never could.

 

I think part of the initial excitement with the sequel films was that we’d get something that directly evolved out of the original films. There’d be new characters, but I was curious about what Luke, Leia, and Han would be like in this continuity. That made it easy to overlook the things that seemed to echo or repeat the originals. The Force Awakens felt like a tribute to the original movies, bringing back many of those elements that we missed but placing them in a new cinematic era.

Unfortunately, despite there being a lot of setup to move forward from that original tribute, it became evident that there wasn’t really a clear story that was being told. At least not one that wasn’t a repetition of the original trilogy. And as we got more movies and this became more apparent, the initial gloss wore off.

The sequels really are what the Scream 5 movie labeled as “requels,” a follow-up story that really is just trying to reboot the original for a new generation. For fans who wanted a true evolution of the story in the originals, this meant we were let down by the story never going somewhere totally new. There were new things, of course, and there’s a lot of great stuff in the sequels. But they do feel like a less complex copy of movies we already loved.

People had mixed reactions to the style of the prequels. Some didn’t like that they felt so different from the originals, or what the movies focused on, or directorial choices by Lucas. But nobody could claim they were not original films or that their style was derivative. And their quality went beyond surface-level uniqueness. The prequels revolutionized digital cinema.

And whether you agree with how Lucas chose to tell his story or not, he certainly was more thoughtful than the new directors seem to be. He took his time drafting and fleshing out movies that told the overall story he wanted to tell with the prequels, of Anakin’s fall to the dark side and the Republic’s transformation into the Empire. To that effect, Palpatine, like other characters, had a clear role to play and an evolution to go through. We were looking at what it took for him to become Emperor.

But what’s his role in the sequels? He’s just the same Emperor as before, a little madder perhaps, but still the shadowy leader of the Empire. There’s no story for him besides filling out a fusion of the role he had before. Even before he was introduced, TLJ made Snoke into an Emperor copy. TFA had somewhat setup the possibility that what looked like the Emperor figure could be something distinct, but nobody bothered to do much with that.

 

I apologize for the double post, but I think this is the best place to post this question:

Why did fans think the Emperor looked the way he did in TESB and ROTJ when those movies first came out?

Was it because of his extreme age? Dark side mutation? Alien? Something else?

 

I assumed he was

A: Really Old (I thought I read back then that he was like 120 or something)
B: Using the dark side takes its toll. (Same way Vader looked pale and scabby) He was probably using to stay alive.
C: Varying aesthetic styles of make up that hadn't been settled on until ROTJ.

 

What's clever about ROTJ is that the Emperor is at first positioned as a feeble old man, albeit an evil one that controls Vader/the Empire. However, it pivots somewhat in the final act where he becomes much more demonic and devil like... and when we see that first close up of him, with his yellow eyes and furrowed head, it becomes clear he is something else entirely. I loved how he was presented in ROTJ...

 

DP...

 

Yes. Unassuming. Secretive. Hidden. Only select people even know he's a sith lord. Hiding right in plain sight.

In the ST, he's like a show-offy demonic Willy Wonka, offering up Rey his evil chocolate factory Empire.

 

That makes a lot of sense. And according to The Making of Return of the Jedi, it really was the intention that he should seem ancient.

"The main character and arch villain was intended to be a Methuselah figure kept alive and intact by some unknown magic. Our intention was to create through makeup an age-wrinkled face with a large split cranium that was beginning to grow apart. We felt the Emperor should be ancient, not old. . . ." ​

I hadn't really thought of when we first see his eyes. But it's interesting that it's not right away, that the revelation that he is somewhat demonic and not just aged is withheld for some time. And I've always been very curious about the notion that he was transforming into something else. What could that have been?

 

The script for Return of the Jedi describes him as follows:

“Then, in the huge SILENCE which follows, the EMPEROR appears. He is a rather small, shriveled old man. His bent frame slowly makes its way down the ramp with the aid of a gnarled cane. He wears a hooded cloak similar to the one Ben wears, except that it is black. The Emperor's face is shrouded and difficult to see, except for his piercing yellow eyes. Commander Jerjerrod and Darth Vader kneel to him. The Supreme Ruler of the galaxy beckons to the Dark Lord.”

 

Darth Plumber

 

What??? I don’t get it.

 

I was looking up some of the concept art for Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi to get a better idea of what they were going for. Nothing new here, but I thought I’d share because of the discussion.




The second set of images has always intrigued me. Some of those pieces make the Emperor look very mutated. But today I read a comment about it on Reddit that surprised me:

“Ralph had the idea of making the emperor change appearance on subject of what he was talking about, when the emperor became negative or angry The hologram would show a melting deformed face with gloom and stormy clouds around it. When the emperor was pleased The hologram would show a girls lips with flowers and psychedelic colors surrounding the space. George didn’t like the idea but that would’ve been cool to see. But with the special effects of that time, I don’t think it would have looked as good.”​

I’d never heard this before nor could I verify it. Has anyone heard about this? Is the info from the actual Art of Empire Strikes Back book?

 

You can definitely see where they pulled Snoke's carbon-copy Emperor from. Inspired by unused concept art of Palatine, he's just a mutated version of the Emperor, with some Vaderish scars in the forehead to add to the mystery.

Literally nothing new.

 

Thats correct. Maybe it’s talked about in the Making of Empire Strikes Back book from 2010 in the McQuarie interviews conducted while Empire was being made.

It’s my understanding that’s a concept for how the Emperor would appear via hologram to keep him mysterious and unknown. He could still have physical form later.

 

I think Ralph McQuarrie mentions it in the Japanese Art of Ralph McQuarrie book (which came with a booklet with an English translation of the captions, including McQuarrie's comments). At any rate, it's mentioned in his commentary in one of the McQuarrie art books.

Also, I know one of McQuarrie's ESB concept drawings showed the Emperor with a lump of flesh covering one eye, like Lon Chaney in the 1923 silent film version of The Hunchback of Notre Dame.

 

In some of the early drafts for TROS, Palpatine would have regenerated into a younger body. And apparently, some of the drafts also reference him emerging from the regeneration as a "Sith King." The meaning of that title is unclear, but a straightforward interpretation is that he would now be more than a Sith Lord, more powerful than he had ever been before. Additionally, it's possible that his increase in power would mean that he no longer had to abide by the rule of two and could train more than one apprentice.

We see a similar situation in the comic Dark Empire 2, and we know that TROS was heavily inspired by this comic series. In that comic, the reborn Emperor is significantly more powerful than his "Dark Jedi." What's more, their power in the Force largely comes from Palpatine himself, who imbues them with part of himself much like Sauron does to the ring in the Lord of the Rings books. And while we don't know what would've happened in a version of TROS that was more similar to DE2, it could've been interesting to see the Emperor do something similar to the Knights of Ren.

 

Regardless of how badly Palaptine was drawn in TROS, as a character, he will never be as more interesting as he was in the OT/PT. In the OT he was absolutely mysterious and a bit scary (even Darth Vader was scared of him). In the PT he was leading a double life, flirting between the life of a senator, supreme chancellor of the Republic, and evil Sith Lord Darth Sidious. He’s pretty much done as a character. His arc in the OT/PT was full and had closure. I think there was some mileage in having him cast a long shadow in the ST… be that a new antagonist that had the same ambitions as Palaptine or Palpatine’s spirit/holocron etc. being the key to new powers that the new antagonist wanted to harness. Palpatine was done as the ‘big bad’ (IMO), and his inclusion in TROS was not only a narrative mistake, but it was also handled as badly as one could handle his return.

 

I think it was fine to bring him back. It would have been a bigger mistake to think they could bring in someone new who would be half as threatening as palpatine.

Snoke was practically just Palpatine mark 2.

 

Most SW fans think that bringing back Palaptine was a mistake and TROS is regarded by many as the weakest SW film. Palpatine’s inclusion was an act of desperation by DLF to salvage the ST. It palpably didn’t work, both as a concept and in its realisation.

 

I don't think you can talk for most star wars fans in that regard.

In the long run, sure many fans will desire the original vision of Palpatine dying in the Beloved OT. Rather than changes that affect that trilogy. Because that's just a thing in general. People don't like change. Even though they did perhaps bring him back far less subtle in legends, but people liked the choice in deciding what they accept.

In terms of what they were going for? Palpatine is the biggest villain in Star Wars. He was in the shadows for the PT, he was in the shadows for the OT, and now he was in the Shadows for the ST. which ties them together by that shadow. Even if you want to say naah we know they didn't have that planned... well yeah but lucas didn't have EVERYTHING planned either, but i don't see anyone holding all of that against him in either of his trilogies. although sure the PT got a fair bit of crap for 15 years but we barely remember that now for some reason.

And whether it was done well or not, that's up to each person to decide. But then that's gonna be star wars going forward.

 

I’m not talking ‘for’ fans, I’m merely stating the fan consensus. Take a look at the Palpatine poll on this fan forum or others outside of TFN. It’s quite routine to be able to assess what the consensus of a fanbase think, broadly speaking, in terms of certain elements. Otherwise we wouldn’t be able to build a broad consensus on the most popular SW films, shows, characters, books, scores etc. etc.

This isn’t about ‘change’, it’s about it being structurally inept. Palpatine’s inclusion was always going to be problematic (as already mentioned), however, Abrams chose to do it in the most badly conceived and written way possible.

Darth Vader is the ‘biggest’ villain in Star Wars.

You’re comparing 3 sets of films, 2 of which (the OT and PT) are infinitely better conceived and constructed than the ST… even fans of the ST usually concede that. Just because Palaptine was in the OT and PT doesn’t mean he needed to be in the ST. And I find it hard to understand those (granted not many) that believe Palpatine is the most fundamental character to Star Wars??? Just because Palaptine was a well written and well performed character in the OT and PT, doesn’t mean he was in the ST. Similarly, just because Alan Grant and Ellie Satler are in Jurassic World Dominium, doesn’t make the film better for it, or their inclusion the only creative choice to make. These are about creative choices and how they are implemented. With regards to both, Abrams did poorly with his choices and implementation. Most fans, IMO, agree with that… even fans that broadly like the films.

I don’t really subscribe to the ‘everything is art’ schtick. I respect that you believe opinions change (they do)… but I’m not sure you can predicate a defence of every criticism on that.

 

Yeah here is one

https://boards.theforce.net/threads...ning-in-the-rise-of-skywalker.50051358/page-3

And most people seem fairly open to his return. Now in hindsight, maybe some didn't like how it was done. But it doesn't change that people were open to the concept of Palpatine returning. And looking back. i don't think anyone is saying Palpatine was the worst part of that movie.

And yeah i have read reactions to Palpatine in TROS, whether its twitter or Thecantina forum ect, and most people had no issue with him being back. Perhaps that was due to seeing him again after so many years, or perhaps loyalty towards Ian in the role... who knows.

Its all down to hindsight in the end. A good idea is still a good idea, even if it not done amazingly.

Well no he isn't. At least not anymore. Sure Vader has the visual and the menace, But Palpatine is even a level under Palpatine.

Vader is very much the default pop-cuture biggest villain. He has got the history of pop-culture that he needs to stand up for. But overall, Palpatine has become the more powerful villain in Star Wars.

 

I never wanted Palpatine in the ST. He died, and his death played a key role in the redemption of Anakin.