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I don't mind the "from a certain point of view" line. I rather like that Ben isn't really apologetic about it, he's just explaining himself.

 

Yeah, granted he stole it from Vader who said it first:

 

Well, actually...


OBI-WAN: It's not disrespect, Master, it's the truth.

QUI-GON: From your point of view.


The OG Jedi Master strikes again

 

The Phantom Menace strikes me again!

 

Yes, Luke specifically says that, and Ben is obviously disappointed because Luke, as a Jedi, needed to be ready for that possibility, and he was refusing it. As far as Ben is concerned, Luke was fated to face him, because they would face each other, Vader would try to kill him, so Luke needed to be able to kill to defend himself.

Of course they are defeated by being killed (or considerably incapacitated). But what's being pointed out is that it's not killing for the sake of killing, or murdering. It's killing in self-defense.

Take what happens in ROTS as an example. Obi-Wan faces the same dilemma Luke faces. He can't kill his brother. But in the end he's able to behave like a Jedi and put his duty first, instead of let himself be clouded by his attachment for Anakin. So he goes to face him, and because he knows that Anakin will try to kill him, he accepts the possibility that he needs to be ready to kill him. And he was right in doing so, not wrong.

There's no revisionist history, I specifically put a date to the quote precisely to prevent that claim from being made.

The implication that the scene is mutually exclusive with the quote (which was made while discussing the theme of that very scene, before it was even written and shot) has no basis. It's simply contrary to the common assumption made by people. People might get defensive and in denial, but it is what it is.

I made many wrong assumptions about the movies too, but over the years once I learned the truth I simply accepted it. And it's a good excuse to rewatch the movies with a new perspective, bringing more clarity to other issues and themes that might not have been as evident on a first or second watch.

 

Then that is poor writing, Because Obi Wan doesn't say that when Luke says he can't kill his own father. I shouldn't have to read articles on what Obi Wan really meant.

 

You are correct. The movie is clear, Kenobi says The Emperor has won if Luke won’t kill his father. Kenobi and Yoda want The Sith destroyed.

 

Filoni Shows are Good but they have too many Filler and they are very Childish sometimes

 

I saw a quote.

Here I can make one too "I like cheese on toast" George Lucas 1989

not that I doubt your quote comes from a legit source, you've no reason really to lie, you nevertheless did not give a source,
and I guess more to the point...Lucas has a tendency to say things, to the point of making changes just for the sake of it in his numerous special editions.


and

 

Indeed. I like the maturity of Fallen Order and Survivor.

 

Andor too. In general I like it when Star Wars has a more intense tone.

A good thing about Star Wars, though, is its ability to hit multiple different tones because of the breadth of the setting. Visions is a great snapshot of this, with some shorts being very lighthearted and kid friendly, and some being downright depressing. But it really applies to the franchise as a whole.

I do wonder if Ahsoka will be less childish than Filoni's animated shows, though. It would make sense, given the shift in medium; Clone Wars, Rebels, and Resistance were all supposed to be children's shows, so childishness is expected.

 

Luke says "can't", not "won't". Ben implies that Luke must be able to kill his father, not that he's going to have to.

One does not need to rewatch the movie or read Lucas quotes to understand this. One only needs to listen.

 

Well many of us were listening and that’s not what the point was:
@anakinfansince1983
@christophero30
@Dandelo

 

Luke Skywalker : There is still good in him.

Obi-Wan : He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil .

Luke Skywalker : I can't do it, Ben.

Obi-Wan : You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.

Luke Skywalker : I can't kill my own father.

Obi-Wan : Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

Luke Skywalker : Yoda spoke of another.

Obi-Wan : The other he spoke of is your twin sister.

Luke Skywalker : But I have no sister.


I think people can/do/did listen....to the whole conversation

And if Lucas meant something completely different, well then he did not do a great job at showing what he was going for...

here we have Luke saying there is still good in him, and Obi-Wan refuting that claim.

And if we are taking the Obi-Wan series in to account, he is sure in his belief "You didn't kill Anakin Skywalker...I did"

 

Exactly.

Just because some people jumped to wrong conclusions doesn't mean Lucas did a bad job. He didn't mean something completely different, he meant precisely what's stated in the conversation. Luke is destined to face Vader, Ben knows it and that's what he tells him. And because he's meant to face him, he needs to be ready to kill him (otherwise he will be killed), instead of outright rejecting it. As far as Ben is concerned, Vader would not spare Luke.

Again, this is a theme that is repeated in ROTS.

Yes, and that doesn't contradict the point Lucas is making or the point of the scene. Jedi are not murderers or assassins.

 

TCW was more a Filoni Product than a Lucas Product yes Lucas shared some of his ideas about the Force but i dont think Lucas wrote every TCW Episode or Watched all TCW Episodes i dont think he cared about TCW in the same level as the 6 Original Movies i think TCW was just another product for Lucas to make more Money and create more Toys also the Bad Batch and Rebels are 100%: Canon to TCW World they are TCW Official Sequels TCW is also part of Filoni Vision Ahsoka was a Character made by Filoni

 

This is an unpopular opinion thread, not easily disprovable conspiracy theories thread

 

Um, yes it is.

 

It is straightforward. Luke was indeed their only hope. They expected Luke to be able to confront (and be ready to kill) Vader. Nonetheless, the mission was not to go murder Vader. It was to face Vader.

What Ben is pointing out is that if Luke (if push comes to shove, and it will since they are meant to face each other) is not ready to kill Vader, then as far as he knows the Sith already won. Because Vader will still try to kill Luke, and Luke is refusing to kill Vader in self defense.

I don't understand why is this such a weird concept when it's present in virtually all the duels and confrontations. Unless they reach a point where they can complete disarm or incapacitate their opponent, the possibility of having to kill is always on the table. But it's never killing for the sake of killing. It's killing in self defense (or in defense of others)

 

@Alexrd ROTJ’s writing is pretty face-value, which isn’t a bad thing, but it means analyzing it too much is more likely to make one miss the point than understand the point better.

The broader context of the movie also makes it clear the Obi-wan and Yoda expected Luke to kill Vader. The whole point of Luke’s arc in ROTJ, to me, is that he proves everyone wrong when they say Vader is beyond redemption. Almost everybody Luke talks to in the movie thinks Vader is a lost cause, Vader included. But Luke’s persistent belief that his father must have some innate goodness, that he can’t be pure evil, overcomes all these expectations.

 

He didn’t write any episodes of the clone wars, and I agree that you can see where other authors contributed things that wouldn’t have been written by Lucas. But he did give an outline for each story, and watched every episode as it was being animated and when it was finished. So every scene in The Clone Wars was viewed and approved by him, and if he wanted something changed he had every opportunity to do it. If he just wanted to make money and didn’t care what was in it then he wouldn’t have financed the series at a loss

 

Unpopular Opinion, while Force Lightning is cool looking, it is more of hazard than useful, all you need is to be good at deflecting with a lightsaber, something any Jedi can learn. So in essence, the big bad dark side power is can be countered by any Jedi skilled with a lightsaber.

 

The idea that Ben, and, by extension, Yoda, didn't mean "kill" when they said "face" doesn't make sense to me. When you consider that they believed Ani to be long dead and Vader a horrifying agent of evil, you have to figure they didn't believe redemption is possible. And Ben's response to Luke's "I can't kill my father," would normally be interpreted as "If he's not killed, the bad guys win." If Ben meant something else, he should've taken five extra seconds and said something along the lines of, "You must face Darth Vader again, and kill him, if need be." In addition, since Luke was still reeling from finding out how his teachers had misled him, it would make sense to earn back his trust by being completely honest and clear.
This is not "The Sting", where multiple meanings of the word "place" are used by the grifters to fool Robert Shaw. Nor is it "The Conversation", where which word Frederic Forrest emphasizes changes everything. This is "Return of the Jedi", where the Balance of the Force, the fate of the galaxy, and the lives of untold multitudes of beings hang in the balance. This is not the time for vaguely-worded tests. They needed to be straightforward, and I believe they were: Vader had to die, period.
Fortunately, Luke had other ideas. And, it seems, so did Ani.