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Amph “This is Starfleet. Get it done.” - Star Trek: Discovery [CBS All Access/Netflix/CraveTV]

Discussion in 'Community' started by The2ndQuest , Aug 5, 2016.

  1. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Discovery spoilers.

    So, we were all way off with our theorizing. It was'nt the Pah Wraiths, the Omega Module or a Time War. It was...

    All the dilithium randomly blowing up one day (though presumably it only happened that once and only to the dilithium being used, given that peaple still use it as the episode itself shows). No gonna lie, that's pretty dumb. But I'm sure there's an actual reason they will eventually reveal that makes sense - I.E that it did'nt just randomly blow up and was in fact made to by someone - so I'm withholding my judgment and honestly at this point I enjoyed the episode so much it's not even something that bothers me:)

    The did mention the Temporal War (which presumably refers to the hot war from Storm Front, not the cold war*), and explained why they don't have time travel technology anymore - though one has to wonder how you prevent peaple from building more time travel tech, and who you police rogue states/actors who do have/get it without yourself having time travel tech

    *this excites me, since I was doubting if they'd even acknowledge the future as presented by Enterprise and it gives me hope that they'll do more, but at the same time I don't want them to step on my headcannon that the ENT time war is Doctor Who's Last Great Time War, which has *only* been able to exist all these years becuase we know virtually nothing about the Trek timewar:D.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2020
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  2. Juliet316

    Juliet316 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005
    Interestingly enough, past Doctor Who showrunner Russell T. Davies actually wanted a crossover cameo with Enterprise, sort like, having the Doctor land on the hull of the Enterprise, but the show was cancelled before that could come to fruition.
     
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  3. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Though The Burn being centered around simultaneous dilithium explosions combined with DIS establishing galactic connections like the spore network, might still hold open a possible connection to the warp 5 threshold that someone was speculating about. Probably unlikely but not ruled out yet.

    It also makes the collapse of the Federation more plausible and palpable- the Federation wasn’t defeated, nor did it fail and fall upon itself, it was simply overwhelmed but a massive catastrophe that happened too fast.

    I did have the same questions about the practicality of enforcing a time travel ban, but I’m also not surprised they referenced it. The whole point of choosing this point in the timeline is to move them past any established future events, so it makes sense that they’d that clear in dialogue. Between that and The Burn it helps avoid people wondering if the Enterprise-J (or K!) will be showing up and keeps the focus on Discovery herself.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2020
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  4. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Thanks for moving my post here, whichever mod/manger that was. I'm fairly tired at this point, and did'nt even think to think to put it in the Disco thread, let alone look for one.

    Yes, I actually remember that. It's a shame they never actually managed to do it, though if the interest was their on Davies part years prior one could hope it might cross the mind of the current powers-that-be in charge of Trek and Who (barring an full crossover, one could at least hope for a cameo on Lower Decks, since the animated element would allow them to us any of the Doctors).

    yeah, I was thinking the spore drive was probobly why they chose to make it dilithium - yet at the same time it seems strange that by this far in the future dilithium powered warp has no apparent alternatives.

    "As 2020 dawned, the citizens of the Earth could scarcly know that the fall of America would come not through Covid, or Trump, or social upheavel, but from the sudden, simultaneous and spontaneous combutusion of everyones car engine":D

    "Dumb" was probobly the wrong word to use earlier, as like I said I doubt it's actually as simple as "all our fuel blew up randomly, lol," but I think I was just expecting something more dramatic. That being said, that's probobly one me, since I'm the one whose frequently said around here peaple should'nt let their expectations for what they think will/should happen overtake them.

    but it does'nt stop them from wondering if the Enterprise-Z will show up!:D

    Perhaps they destroyed the time travel technology using time travel - preventing it from being invented in the first place in a way that ensured it could'nt be invented, or the destruction was imposed on them by a higher power (like the Q) for the sake of reality/the Federation reached an agreement with a higher power to intervene and keep the technology away - at least until Humanity was ready to use it.

    That or, using my temporal war=last great time war headcannon, they were able to safely destroy it becuase everyone else who had the technology had been wiped out/apparently wiped out* and everyone left was far to primitive for them to have to worry about building it anytime soon - along with the simple fact that if you survived something like the time war you'd probobly be scared s*#$less of time travel technology.

    *my Trek/Who headcannon goes with Assimilation2's explantion that both franchies take place in alternate realities, so the Fed would be unaware that Daleks and Time Lords surivived the war, especially since Doctor Who itself tells us that after the war travel between realities ceased being a thing that one could easily do.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2020
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  5. Darth Caliban

    Darth Caliban Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Actually the Pah Wraiths could still be the cause. Doesn't it seem strange that all of the dilithium exploded at the same time, regardless of where it was located

    And the dilithium crystals in the opening credits have changed their color. They are now red...
     
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  6. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    [​IMG]

    Book does mention trilithium and other options but I missed the rest of the dialogue. Presumably they're either more rare or not as easily accessible to most folks.

    And, [face_tired], we've already seen the EnterpriZe... ;)

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. dp4m

    dp4m Also a Narc star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    First... this is glorious.



    Second, and I'll reference @Darth Guy here, but with his critique of Michael being the most-special-center-of-everything there's at least a troubling concern that something named "The Burn" is, well, Michael (Burnham).

    In re: The Burn...
    I, uh, didn't think that everyone used dilithium? Do we even know that Romulan singularity drives need dilithium?

    Also, everything exploding at once made me think of Joe Haldeman's book Forever Free... but the later thematic elements in the book are almost definitely not in play.
     
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  8. RokurGepta

    RokurGepta Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2010
    I arrived at this suspicion as well.

    Perhaps Michael triggered the Burn as she was moving forward through time. It happened at some point in the past relative to her current present, but she just travelled through that entire past, so she was in effect present for a briefest of moments at whatever point the Burn happened.

    Now, how they would know to name it after her is something of a puzzle, of course, but it could just begin and end with the writers being meta.
     
  9. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I haven't watched it yet because I'm busy with watching something I am actually enjoying, but this looks like another "the galaxy is tiny" problem of Kurtzman Trek. Everyone is the same as the Federation and/or the Federation has overwhelming sway over everyone. It's similar to the spore drive being able to travel anywhere and the android ban in Picard being by "galactic treaty" even though all previous series are dedicated to the fact that the Federation doesn't even know who inhabits most of the galaxy. I think they mistake the setting for Star Wars where one Republic or Empire controls the whole thing and traveling from one end of the galaxy to another is quick and easy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
  10. dp4m

    dp4m Also a Narc star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Just to push back on this a little -- the Federation does know the major players in the interim. Borg (Delta Quadrant) wouldn't do such a thing, per se, and were able to be "handled" -- same with the Dominion and Founders in the Gamma Quadrant... and the main players of the Alpha/Beta quadrants would agree (Federation, Klingons, Romulans -- folks like the Tholians, Gorn, Breen, Orions, Ferengi, etc. could probably be convinced without too much effort).

    I mean, everything else about the synth ban is nonsensical -- especially given what we know about DISCO S2 ("hey, here's an AI that was going to wipe out all life! Cool, let's definitely not ban AI research...") -- but I can at least see where calling a treaty amongst the above folks a "galactic treaty"...
     
  11. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    It just goes to show how little the writers care about the setting if they can't even keep the basic terminology consistent. :p
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
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  12. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    They don't use it. But, that's not necessarily an error. First off, IIRC, the Federation didn't discover the quantum singularity power source aboard a warbird until the TNG era, which implies that it is a relatively new advancement. As of DIS S2, the Federation wouldn't have been aware of that technology (nor the contemporary Romulans in general, since the knowledge of the Romulans acquiring starship technology wasn't discovered until Balance of Terror in TOS), so Michael wouldn't have known about that in any scenario and her statement would still stand as accurate from her POV.

    Second, it's quite possible that the Romulans abandoned the singularity power core tech by the time of The Burn and swapped over to more standardized tech like dilithium reactors. They're supposed to be faster and more stable than the singularity cores and, after the destruction of Romulus, it's quite possible it was just easier for the Romulans to rebuild their forces using tech that was more widely available from third parties.

    Not to mention, as we've seen on TNG and, I believe, DS9, you can get some funky time travel effects as a result of malfunctions in that tech. So, even if they were stll using it in this era, it's possible the Romulans abandoned the singularity core approach under the banner of banning time travel tech in the wake of the Temporal War- as mentioned by Book here.

    So, they may actually have their bases covered here, at least for a starting point- it would leave the question of why they wouldn't turn back to that tech as a dilithium alternative following The Burn, but it could be a combination of time travel tech bans or something that gets affected by current conditions in some other way (or, perhaps, is simply incompatible with slipstream technology and is far too slow by comparison to consider using).

    And in this corner, the reigning champion of the timestream- Michael "The Burn" Burnham!!

    (after the match)

    "Oh, yeah, YOU JUST GOT BURNED!"

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
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  13. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    I actually had'nt noticed that, good catch[face_peace]
    No.

    Go find Picard:p

    I missed the reference to trilithium but I did catch the reference to benamite, which Book said "nobody" had but implied that if he did have some he could have flown at slipstream - so it might be a case of "slipstream has replaced warp, but there's a gas shortage ATM."

    That was the HMS Enterprize. It does'nt count:p

    [​IMG]

    South Park did it first:p

    That crossed by mind, but at this point I'm willing to be it's just coincidental; if your character's name contains a common noun your bound to run into this kind of issue when writing a story at some point.

    The way the episode presented it they did'nt clarify if it was just the Federation who fell. So it could easily be that Burn did'nt affect the Romulans - though given the Romulan Empire has already fallen by this point their might not be much left (they could even have been obsorbed by the Federation and switched (back) to dilithium)

    For all we know somebody else who did'nt use dilithium has stepped in to fill the void left by the Federation, like the Xindi or the Terei/Vaadwaur - Book also mentions Benamite and in such a way that implies his ship can fly at slipsteam if only he had some

    Undiscovered Country, TNG and DS9 refer to "Intersteller Law" (as an obvious analogy to International Law) but that does'nt mean said law
    has no limits and is literally intersteller in scope*; a "galactic treaty" could easily just be between the Federation and (some) of its immediate galactic neighbors - at least one of whom, the Romulans, we know would back such an accord without complaint - with plenty of other peaple not getting on board (the Bynar and the Pakleds defiantly seem like two peaple who would have no use or inclination to sign such a treaty). Your taking "galactic" in this sense more literally then the writers of the show intended; it's like saying that becuase the PTBT is a global treaty it literally includes ever nation on Earth, or saying that the "Galactic" Republic/Empire *must* include the entire SW galaxy when we know they actually don't.

    *in fact, we know it is'nt, becuase Soong and Maddox were able to sidestep the ban just by leaving Federation space and setting up camp in the backwoods (I doubt they were able to establish their colony without help either) and nobody treated that as illegal or unallowed once they found out about it.

    We know that, but the vast majority of peaple in universe don't (and those that do know think it was prevented). What's more the peaple who do know would probobly be in favor of the ban, since banning AI research would (at least in their eyes) make it less likely for an AI revolt to take place.

    Why would the Ferengi get on board with such a thing? Unless Rom has massively changed their society (which may has well have by that point) then why would they sign a treaty that is both unprofitable but harmful to profits (if less peaple are researching AI, then that opens the door for cheaply-made Ferengi pleasure-androids to dominant the market:D)
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
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  14. dp4m

    dp4m Also a Narc star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
  15. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Rules of Acquisition 74 and 62;)

    Then agian, given Rule 17, I would'nt put it past the Ferengi to sign the treaty but then voilate it anyway right away (while on course pointing to Rule 16 to deflect accusations that their doing so:p)
     
  16. dp4m

    dp4m Also a Narc star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
  17. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    How many more years of this can Mike and Rich take?
     
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  18. Chancellor_Ewok

    Chancellor_Ewok Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2004
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  19. darthcaedus1138

    darthcaedus1138 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2007
    [​IMG]
    This guy is a hero. Screw it, THE hero of the season.
     
  20. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    I'm actually really unnerved how

    he treats the federation and the federation flag ala American jingoism and American flag code nonsense. I geuninely cringed at the "it would be an honor for you hold this flag" stuff. I never felt that Starfleet was like that and I'm hoping it's just a case of him growing up hearing stories about the federation and doing his own deification.
     
  21. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    We’ve seen the UFP flag used ceremoniously before- coffins, etc. Teaser image had her waving it, etc as well.

    That’s actually a pretty efficient selection of clips for the time travel rings there. Pre-DIS, TOS-via-the-most-compatible-footage, TMP, TNG/DS9 in one shot, Ent-E era, no VOY as no HD, etc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
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  22. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Keep in mind that he views himself as a Starfleet officer; while not a lot of countries civilians view flags the same way Americans do, many countries militeries treat flags with a fair amount of respect, given that they repersent both the ideals and the nation itself that they serve/fight for, and (at least historically when carrying flags in battle was a thing peaple did) viewed them as symbols

    The below is'nt really for you, Vivic, since your profile page says your from the San Fran Bay area so your presumably an American as well who knows all that and - from what I know about SF - you almost certainly live in an area that puts even less stock in the flag then were I live;) - but more for anyone whose not American and might be curious/worried/interested in all the hubbub about a piece of cloth; though frankly I don't think you need to be unnerved, as I'm sure jingoism never really crossed the minds of the writers and they just did what seemed normal/natural to them.

    Anyway, spoilers just so peaple don't get bloody eyes from this totally off-the-cuff essay I found myself writing becuase I'm sugered up on Bang and have been pumped up from prologed exposer to an extremely hyper friend.

    also, speaking as a left-leaning, moderately apolitical and very much non-jingoist American citizen who really has no strong attachment to Old Glory but comes from a family with involvment with affairs in DC and with the military/4th of July planning, our treatment of the flag, while admittedly somewhat silly and (while definantly taken too far and into jingoistic territory by certain peaple) is more cultural then it is jingoistic. The thing of Americans and the flag (all flags actually, hence why Americans of varying ethnic/culture descent will often fly/display the flags of their ancestor country alongside/in place of the American flag and some nationalized immigrents - like my uncle - while fly/display it on/in their home) as opposed to a lot of other countries is that the flag repersent national ideals, culture and/or history, while to other countries it tends to just repersents the country itself (so when Americans get upset about peaple doing this or that to the flag - or actually do this or that to the flag - their actually getting upset about disrespecting what it repersents/protesting what it repersents, not getting upset/protesting the flag itself). Also a lot of sane, run-of-the-mill Americans (at least in my part of the country - your probobly more likely to see a rainbow flag or no flag at all in my town specificly then you are a red-white-and-blue one) really don't even put up the flag and get into all the attached stuff save for on Veterans Day or the 4th anymore (or fly flags that in some way, shape or form offer some form of a middle finger to what they feel the nation's flag repersents - I.E the anarchist flag, the don't tread on me snake and the flags for BLM or antifa, ect).
    [face_hypnotized]

    This (and we've seen the flag hanging in starfleet instillations in such a way before - for example in DS9's wardroom on occasion and in the TOS Defiant's briefing room (I think) in ENT)

    Also it's an American show written by Americans, aired by an American company on an American streaming service and based on prior shows that were strongly influanced by American history, events and ideals, so it's not suprising that they would view the Federation's flags in the same way that, well, most Americans view national flags (and also I've know quite a few tireless goverment bureaucrats who have a flag hanging on their office wall; heck it might even be mandatory to put that flag up).

    Also, remember this (super weird and retroactively hilarious/WTF) moment?


    True, that was in the 60s, but Trek's never stopped having the Federation be "idealized space America spreading/touting it's ideals through space," it's just gotten way more subtle about it and way more willing (and eager) take a critical look at the flip side of America. Saying "please hang this nice family heirloom that repersents what we both love and fight for" does'nt seem particulerly worrisome to me - it's not like Burnham put up the flag and the scene immedatly transitioned into this.

    It's a little weird though, that it would show things from before she went forward in time (and also from the Mirror Universe).

    Also I guess Sarah Conner (and the Zhat Vash) never quite managed to prevent Judgement Day:D
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
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  23. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    It's more that it's just not something I've ever seen in a Star Trek before and it felt soooo out of place to watch what amounted to American Flag and Service Porn. Felt like it belonged in the Mirror universe.
     
  24. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    So since I'm actually writing at this point and I brought my mind back to this, to follow up on my "if your character's name contains a common noun your bound to run into this kind of issue when writing a story at some point" the captain in the Trek story I'm working has the surname "Walker" and even two chapers in I've had to struggle to find ways to put things like "walk" or "walked" into the sentences/paragraphs were he is named in a way that does'nt seem weird or eye-catching.

    (for instance the second "act" of the first chapter originally started with "as Walker walked into the Warspite's sickbay" before I re-read through it, went:oops:and spent an embarrasingly long time trying to figure out how to make the sentence work before I realized "oh yeah, that's right, he also has a first name.":oops::oops:)

    Fair enough, but have you seen Take me Out to the Holosuite? Becuase in that episode the crews of DS9 and the USS T'kumbra actually stood at attention before the flag while it was at full-mast with their hats off and held over their hearts while the Federation's (apparent) national anthem played, and that seems way more jarring IMO.

    And honestly I doubt the writers actually felt they were writing American flag/Service Porn. So if it makes you feel better they were probobly just trying to make a sober moment of the heroes reflecting on the Federation's ideals/taking solice in the fact that something of it still remained/steeling themselves for the task of rebuilding it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
  25. Darth Caliban

    Darth Caliban Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Possible hints that Book is
    Casper the friendly pah wraith

    Maybe Book's "family" are the Pah Wraiths. The way his face changed and glowed when he used his powers reminded me on Dukat in "What You Leave Behind".

    And there's the way he described his people as hunters and murderers.

    And Book told Burnham about the location of the nearest wormhole. Another hint for the viewers

    Maybe he is actually a renegade Pah Wraith, who doesn't like what his brethren do and tries to do some good instead. Could be a reason why he apparently avoids other people as much as he can.
     
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