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Amph “This is Starfleet. Get it done.” - Star Trek: Discovery [CBS All Access/Netflix/CraveTV]

Discussion in 'Community' started by The2ndQuest , Aug 5, 2016.

  1. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 21, 2019
    I'm pretty sure the guardian is an object, rather then a person.

    He (it?) itself says it's "both and neither" when Kirk asks if it's machine or a being, which I always took to mean he was artificial in some way, irregardless of the alpha and omega bit he gives later; IMO I always figured the Guardian was built by someone, he had just forgotten.

    (and I hesitate to go here again, becuase I know the jokes probobly wearing thin, but in all seriusness I hope Carl's not the Guardian just becuase I don't want my headcanon that the planet from TCOTEOF is Gallifrey and the Guardian is a construct built by the Time Lords around the Untempered Schism to get ruined:p).
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2020
  2. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 27, 2000
    Well, if it is the Guardian, he's moved around since Kirk and co obviously weren't in the Gamma Quadrant at the start of TCOTEOF.

    It doesn't have to have been built, either- it is a nexus of space and time. It's Star Treky-possible for an intelligence of some kind to have evolved around (or as a result of) the energies of such a threshold. Even if it is ultimately a machine/"device", or tool, to permit time travel.

    Also, I hate to point it out but the long-standing theory that the main reason the Guardian was never brought back in any subsequent Trek shows was because of Harlan's legal/royalties claim over the script. Harlan died in the summer of 2018. DIS S3 started filming in summer 2019. There's some greasy timing there if they've suddenly decided to use the Guardian again.

    And with JMS overseeing Harlan's estate, it'd be somewhat ironic that if, after all this time, it was this that had JMS seek legal action against Paramount, rather than the eye-raising origins of DS9 in relation to B5.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2020
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  3. dp4m

    dp4m JCC Playoff Pick 'Em Winner, Also a Narc star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    I mean, he couldn't really have been any clearer about it than what he wrote in Becoming Superman so... :p
     
  4. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    I still have to read that.
     
  5. dp4m

    dp4m JCC Playoff Pick 'Em Winner, Also a Narc star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    It's cool, I only cried like three times... :p
     
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  6. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 21, 2019
    I always assumed the Guardian was'nt actually the space-time nexus, but was rather an object built around the nexus in order to control/stablize it - and that's not just my Doctor Who headcanon talking, it's what I've thought since I first saw that episode of TOS as a kid.

    I honestly thought he died years ago; then agian, I thought the same thing about Wilford Brimley until he died literally this year, so what do I know?

    IMO, he'd have better luck trying to sue Bioware for Mass Effect at this point; aside from "space station in the future" I never saw DS9 and B5 as being all that similar.

    Anyway, JMS would'nt have to sue Paramount over the Guardian; I don't want to sound like I'm speaking ill of the dead, but Ellison was such a petty and vindictive dude that I can honestly believe he'd come back from the dead just to file a lawsuit - and I don't even believe in ghosts!
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2020
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  7. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 12, 2012
    Best bit from Carl

    "Goodness gracious, is she sick?"
     
  8. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 27, 2000
    [Yakko Warner inhale] Wellllll.....

    -Space stations ending with a numerical designation that are of commerce ports in nature (prominently featuring a casino area), near a giant swirling blue vortex passageway (wormhole/jumpgate) used for travel and a location of advanced creation (prophet temple/Great Machine).
    -Hard-edged female second in command, pessimistic, sarcastic security chief. somewhat ethnic doctor.
    -Characters named Dukat/Dukhat
    -A spiritual race recently coming free of occupation by a more militaristic civilization, the conflict of which led the spiritual race to become more militant themselves.
    -Gambler conman (Quark/Londo) has somewhat fluctuating antagonistic friendship with hard-edged chief of security (Odo/Garabaldi).
    -Characters played by Julie Caitlin Brown have a long-standing grudge against a notorious murderer who has prolonged their life at the expense of others through scientific experimentation (Rao Vantika/Jha'dur "Deathwalker").
    -The term "Changeling" has significance in relation to early parts of both series (the B5 pilot "the Gathering" and DS9's "Vortex" & beyond), though applied to different elements (technology versus a species).
    -A main character slowly constructs a device (chrysalis/clock) piece of piece in their quarters while conversing with a subordinate .
    -A main character often referred to as Chief (Miles/Garibaldi) has a recurring assistant (Neela/garibaldi's Aide) who is a plant by another faction that attempts to bring about political change by assassinating a prominent rival leader (Bariel/Santiago) in the first season finale so that one of their faction may replace him (Adami/Clark). Their plot is uncovered by the Chief character.
    -The Circle/Homeguard Bajoran for Bajorans, vandalism with a symbol; subdues and brands an alien on the middle of the forehead with their logo
    -Second Season opens with a command officer (Sinclair/Kira) being reassigned from the station to be among the religious order of a species heavily involved with the operation of the station, partly due to prophecy
    -A near-human alien race has their hair up in a fan-style to represent social status.
    -A character played by Julia Nickson (Catherine/Cassandra) romances (or attempts to romance) the commander of the station (Sinclair/Sisko).
    -Characters have discussion of higher and lower lifeforms awareness of each other to that of ants (Odo & Kira/G'Kar & Catherine Sakai).
    -3rd Season Premiere introduces a new prototype warship for use by the station's crew using technology from other races (Vorlon/Romulan), in response to the appearance of a powerful new enemy race (Shadows/ Dominion)
    -Image of female commanding officer of station used (or attempted to be used) in an erotic hologram program against her knowledge/wishes.
    -Shady Political Organization develops it's own fleet of ships in secret without knowledge of the military (Obsidian Order/Psi Corps)
    -A redheaded female character named Leeta/Lyta becomes a recurring character on the show in 1995, played by somewhat similar looking actresses.
    -During a time travel story in the 3rd season, the Commander of the station becomes/takes on the identity of a key historical figure.
    -An alien brings (or is speculated to have brought) knowledge of the future to the past that is passed on by others as religious prophecy amongst a spiritual people.
    -A main character uncontrollably flashes forward in time and attempts to use those visions to change future events (Miles/Several)
    -The Doctor must, through strength of will, fight his way through a potentially fatal wound inflicted by a one-shot criminal, guided by vision(s) of a familiar face(s) representing a different facet of his mind. (Bashir/Franklin)
    -The opening title sequence involves people in spacesuits doing external repairs to the station to convey a sense of scale
    -Weapon systems of the station are upgraded for a coming battle
    -Weapon systems on the station of similar design emerge from hidden ports
    -The station, after harboring political/military refugees/fugitives, must defend itself in battle (both against ships and boarding parties) against former allies. Re-enforcements to the attacking forces are known to arrive just as allied re-enforcements do so, forcing the resolution to the battle to make the attacking forces standdown.
    -A warrior of alien traditions joins the main cast about midway through the series.
    -A main character is involved in a "lesbian" relationship in an episode that aired in October 1995.
    -The main character (Sheridan/Sisko) serves under a high ranking Earth military officer played by Robert Foxworth (Hague/Leyton), who is attempting a coup against the Earth's government.
    -A guest character undergoes a mindwipe/death of personality. (chronological viewing also results in this episode being back to back with the VOY episode that features Brad Douriff, who plays the guest character on B5)
    -Labor disputes attempted to be resolved "by any means necessary" via enforcers.
    -A main alien character becomes more human through a drastic physical change.
    -The main enemy of the series (Shadows/Dominion) attempt to destabilize opposing forces by inciting war between factions by controlling/manipulating/allying with the rulers of one (or both) sides.
    -The advanced alien race worshipped as holy figures have a cast-off (or opposing) faction/race villified by the same races (Vorlons/Shadows; Minbari, Narns, etc).
    -A character has a vision of being on a planet and looking up to see enemy forces blot out the sun (Londo/Sisko)
    -The station Captain has fragmented visions of events to come. (Sheridan/Sisko)
    -A character initiates an area spread of a attack with a weapon to reveal and kill two cloaked enemies they only suspected were there.
    -The characters visit a derelict sister station. (B4/Empok Nor)
    -After being launched in full swing at the end of a season, the major conflict against the powerful race that the series has been building up to achieves a significant resolution in the 6th episode of the following season, involving the main character seeking the intervention of higher beings. This sequence of events also involves a debate on an astral plane of existence where higher beings take the rapdily shifting form of the main character's allies. (Sheridan/Sisko, Shadows/Vorlons/Dominion, First Ones/Prophets)
    -A secretive organization charged with protecting other organizations from greater threats utilizes an Inquisitor to interrogate a member of the crew as a means of recruitment. (Vorlons/Section 31)
    -Alien beings on a higher plane of existence do mortal battle aboard the station, fulfilling a prophecy.
    -The lead female officer is killed off just before the final season due to the actress wanting to move on to other roles and is replaced at the start of the final season by another female officer in a similar role.
    -The homeworld of the race (Centauri/Cardassians) collaborating with the main enemy race (Shadows/Dominion) suffers devastation as punishment for disobedience.
    -The major war of the series is resolved through confronting and bargaining with a "god" leading the enemy forces, which results in a stand down/creasing of hostilities;
    -The main Captain character of the series eventually must transcend to a higher plane of existence as part of prophecies made, leaving behind a wife and child(ren)
    -A close-up window shot pulls back to reveal the entire station at a distance via the wonders of CGI

    [​IMG]

    [face_laugh]
     
  9. Juliet316

    Juliet316 SFTC Daily Double Winner star 10

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    Apr 27, 2005
    [face_laugh] We laugh because with Ellison, it's probably true!
     
  10. anakincol

    anakincol Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 28, 2009
    That's a very good list.

    Though one point you make is debatable, I would not consider Jadizia the lead female officer. There are both more episodes dedicated to Major Kira and she is the 2nd in Command on the Station so the comparison you make to Susan Ivanova does not actually fit. You could replace it with Lead female actress has struggles with her peoples Religious beliefs(which Kira and Ivanova both have episodes dedicated to)
     
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  11. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 21, 2019
    IMO a lot of those I'd call either concidental or a case of the shows being similer becuase one is trying to find similarities; and many of them are more disimiler then they are alike (for example the great machine/celestial temple, the wormholes/jumpgates or the two Dukats*) - a statement that could also to be said to be true of the shows themselves and their fictional universes as well.

    But fair enough, maybe I should amend my statement to "I never saw DS9 and B5 as being all that similar on anything but a superfical level." You could say the same about, say, Firefly comparitive to Blake 7's or Cowboy Bebop, and while I will I admit it's suspect that Paramount was aware of what JMS's plans were and then decided to comission their own show at the same time that was broadly similer in a loose sense, I've always personally felt that Straczynski was just reading to much into things; his belief, I believe, is that Berman, Piller and Behr were'nt aware of the information he had presented to Paramount as part of his failed pitch but that Paramount was using that knowledge to "steer things" without them knowing, but it seems unlikly to me that they would'nt have.

    *I'm adding "The Two Dukats" to my list of possible band names:)
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2020
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  12. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 27, 2000
    So, Star Trek went for the big pull this week also...

    And the Guardian speculation panned out. The reveal was actually a really cool moment- I'm annoyed that YT thumbnails spoiled the visual/confirmation before I got around to watching the episode, alas.

    I love how they reused the original audio, updated some of the elements (though with the time tunnel it does have a bit of a Doomsday Machine look to it now... which opens up all kinds of potential connections if one tries to speculate down that crazy rabbit hole, ha) and even confirmed that it moved around (as I pondered in my earlier post). Its aversion to being used as a weapon to alter history is interesting, given how it seemed to function in TOS. So that makes for an interesting development of the Guardian as an entity.

    "You can't just live in doorways."


    Did not expect this to be the "farewell, off you go to your spin-off series" for Georgiou, but it makes sense in retrospect. Her struggle and fight to change the Mirror Universe was actually pretty powerful. That's something that has been talked about a lot in various Mirror episodes over the decades, but is rarely ever seen or expressed in such a deep and personal manner.

    The Admiral continues to do a great job of walking the line between being a mentor/ally and a jerk, which fits his role quite well and keeps the Saru interactions on its toes.

    And, of course, making the intro title sequence literally mirror flipped vertically and swapped to a negative color scheme was a nice touch.

    I'll have to revise that phrasing. I think my perception in the moment was that Jadzia was the lead female Starfleet officer, so I just shorthanded it for my notes. But, you're right that Kira would really be second in command overall and probably functioned more like Ivanova on a regular basis. Still, that entry has enough other points of interest to remain valid beyond the specific rank/affiliation phrasing.

    Fully admit that to be the case for several entries. I didn't include it here (because it didn't work with the joke), but whenever I started that log, or did a major summary/update, I usually included a preface that specified that some entries would be coincidental. Mainly because it seemed fairer (and more useful) to include all potential examples rather than try to judge the validity of each one based solely on my own opinion.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2020
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  13. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 21, 2019
    I hate all of you so freaking much right now...[face_bleh]

    But guess what, this does'nt ruin my headcannon, becuase I can just say that

    Time Lords made the Guardian out of validium or something...

    (haha...I need help, don't I?[face_worried])

    Truthfully no matter what the truth is, we're unlikely to know at this point either way.

    Also I meant to write, "but it seems unlikly to me that they would'nt have known if paramount was guiding/manipulating them in such an obvious way."
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2020
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  14. dp4m

    dp4m JCC Playoff Pick 'Em Winner, Also a Narc star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    So, in re: this episode and the speculation panning out...
    Since there's no good history on the Terran Empire, one of my headcanon pieces has been that the Mirror Universe is from the alternate timeline where Edith Keeler lived, and the Nazis won. This would also explain why the Guardian is so keenly interested in both Georgiou, the Mirror Universe, etc. and her capacity to change...
     
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  15. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 12, 2012
    The Guardian reveal was great, I honestly wouldn't have expected it if people hadn't speculated that. Also interesting but logical note that people used it in the temporal cold war and he is just sick of it at that point, even though all time travel technology was banned the Guardian is an entity who clearly is able to look after himself.

    I'm thinking Carl may be a contender to be on the Phillipa spin off showcase and she might flip between universes because it seems that time travelling and universe jumping was her problem but maybe she'll flip back and forth easily now that they're more closely aligned to a different different but almost close Teran universe she's from cuz right now almost everyone in her Teran universes, including herself in one universe, are kinda dead

    Why was holocommuicator technology on the Defiant and DS9 in the 24th Century better quality than 32nd century holo communicator technology? That admiral looked glitchy as heck compared to how clean Eddington showed up. I guess O'Brien really was a miracle worker.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2020
  16. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 21, 2019
    That's been one of my theories on and off for the years as well* - the divergence can't be too far in the past, at any rate, since Carl/the Guardian says he's going to send her back to before the timelines diverged and I highly doubt her spineoff will be set in ancient Rome or something.

    *specificly it's that the Axis won the war and, at some point afterwards, the Greater German Reich and the Italian Empire merged into some sort of evil European Union with either Victor Emmanuel III or Umberto II of Italy as the first emperor (maybe as a puppet for a duarchy consisting of Hitler and Mussolini?), explaining why the Terrans invoke both Nazi Germany and Rome*.

    **sometime later (or before, depending on when they merge) the events of the 1970s DW episode Inferno take place, choking Earth in smoke and volanic ash for long enough that the mirror Humans evolve to posses poor eyesight (oh no, there I go again...:p)

    The obvious (though out of universe) answer would be that they probobly felt it would look better if they just had the actors stand in bright circle and say they were holograms (which works fine becuase that's how holograms on the holodeck looked) but now technology (and audience expectations) have changed. That being said, it's not hard to assume that beneth all the shinyness Starfleet's technology might be suffering from stress or breakdowns.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2020
  17. Mustafar_66

    Mustafar_66 Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    May 20, 2005
    I assumed it was because they were so far away that it was a poor signal. The Guardian was in the Gamma Quadrant I believe. I was more surprised they were able to communicate with Starfleet at all.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk
     
  18. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 27, 2000
    There is the supposed quote from an unnamed DS9 castmember admitting that they realize their show was copying B5- but that could just be a result of being aware of the contemporary observations at the time.

    Long-distance call vs local ;). Eddington was in and around the DMZ as Sisko was looking for him. Discovery was in the Gamma Quadrant while the Admiral was in the Alpha Quadrant.

    That would be an interesting connection- but it might depend on how literal we take the Mirror Darkly title sequence. If we assume that everything shown in the intro that is not the same as the standard ENT intro exists along the Mirror Universe path (so, basically, the Polynesian sailing vessel and HMS Enterprize would be the only shared scenes and exist in both universes), then things diverged between the HMS Enterprize's Galleon-era and World War I (as we see German planes, etc), not between World Wars I & II.
     
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  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 6X Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    In the Dark Mirror novel (which is definitely incompatible with all later Mirror Universe material though, because it has the Terran Empire thriving in the TNG era) the idea is that almost all of recorded history has been a little crueller, and the fiction of the universe reflects this. Even Homer's Iliad has Achilles not giving Hector's body back to Priam, the one merciful moment he has in the main timeline's version of the story.
     
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  20. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 21, 2019
    I've always felt the intro could work with either interpretation (an earlier divergence vs a later one) as I'm fairly confident the writers of ENT did'nt think any further beyond just grabbing a bunch of stock footage to make a cool intro.

    Which lines up with Phlox's line in ENT and Georgiou's statement about Terrans shedding their "peaceful delusions" mellenia ago, but at the same time neither of those statements nesseserly have to mean the universe diverged at an early point, as Phlox could just be talking about what written works he was aware of (and that had'nt been censured by the Empire) and Georgiou could easily be speaking figuratively.
     
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  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 6X Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Probably the latest version of divergence (because it was written before Enterprise) was in the Shatnerverse, where, after peaceful contact with the Vulcans, Zefram Cochrane and Lily tell them about the Borg, they listen, the resulting Vulcan/Terran Empire starts out of paranoia for the coming threat, and the Borg are destroyed early on.
     
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  22. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    That's got a bit of a "Thrawn and Palpatine were trying to save us from the Vong" vibe to it.

    No doubt the overall idea was "the history of warfare" to contrast the original's "history of exploration" theme, but there's obviously a divergence point implied in there. It just may not necessarily be as specific as I was suggesting.
     
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  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 6X Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    The "Terran Neil Armstrong" scene


    [​IMG]

    did seem like a hint that the Terran Empire existed back then.

    The marching scene, with the insignia superimposed over a bunch of troopers, may be another hint.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
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  24. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 12, 2012
    They basically stated that Phillipa's biologically inclined to be evil and the Enterprise episodes seem to imply the Terans have always been like that. Certain ones can change, Phillipa gets nicer, Lorca seems to genuinely care at times for his Prime crew and he wasn't a raving lunatic the way Mirror Kirk was hollering when he flipped over. Mirror Spock is still dispassionately logical about everything. They can change, just don't want to and rarely do anyway.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
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  25. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 21, 2019
    If I recall correctly the old DC Mirror Universe miniseries had the empire be formed after the mirror Earth-Romulan War, which had the Romulans conquer Earth or something.

    Very few of the varius Trek lit mirrorverse stories fit with each other anyway though, let alone with the shows. Personally the only ones I include in my headcanon is the video game Shattered Universe and the one-shot comic Fragile Glass - and in that case of that latter that becuase it's self-contained and really the only other Mirror story that works with both Shattered Universe and DS9.

    True; once they get to the space section and the Terran flag is planted on the moon the sequences obviusly have to be set in the Mirrorverse, but before that who knows? At any rate I doubt whatevers spinoff they make is going to limit itself to being strickly bound by the intro seqence of two episodes of ENT.

    That's not Armstrong; in the Mirror Universe Aldrin murdered Armstrong so that he could be the first man to set foot on the moon, only to then be himself shot by Michael Collins as they exited the craft so that Collins could have all the glory for himself:p

    All jokes aside, if we go with the "Terran Empire grew out of Nazi Germany" theory that me and dp4m have, then the first man on the moon was probobly German or Italian, not American.

    Philipa's response to that claim (along with what we see of varius "good" mirrorverse Terrans) might indicate that's just junk science or a misconception held by those in the Prime Universe.
     
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