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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

JCC 11/9 - Nevar forgets

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ender Sai, Sep 10, 2016.

  1. seventhbeacon

    seventhbeacon Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2015

    Yeah. For instance, most Americans don't give one **** about brown kids getting drone striked in other countries.
     
    Rew likes this.
  2. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    But by that metric, what you're saying is flawed because the 11 September attacks ended up with hyperterrorism - a word which, like cisgendered, is stupid, awkward, ungainly, fashioned by academics and not going to catch on - or an isolated event. So they didn't come of age in an age (that's such bad writing, but, CNN) of terrorism at all.
     
  3. G-FETT

    G-FETT Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2001
    Oh Ender...
     
  4. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Mostly everyone I know refers to yesterday as 9/11 and not Patriot Day. Frankly, I'd just feel weird going up to a friend on 9/11 and wishing them a "happy Patriot Day".
     
  5. TiniTinyTony

    TiniTinyTony JCC Super Bowl Pick 'Em Winner star 7 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2003
  6. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Deep in December It's nice to remember
    The fire of September that made us yellow
    Deep in December our hearts should remember
    And bomb-o, bomb-o, bomb-o
     
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  7. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
  8. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    If you think they're related, there's no hope for you.
     
  9. Ezio Skywalker

    Ezio Skywalker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2013
    There's a meme floating around Facebook (albeit scarcely) containing the message that an even such as 9/11 was imminent due to the US's toppling and installing of regimes abroad without thought of the human consequences of such activities.

    Yesterday morning, there was a NPR interview (I cannot recall with whom) in which the speaker voiced similar comments. The general message from this speaker (and it's somewhat irritating that I cannot recall his name or profession) was that for generations the US meddled with the Middle East under an agreement summed up as: "Do whatever you want to your own people and neighbors, but try to leave Israel alone, and just keep gas prices down, and we're solid." It was kind of a grim outlook, but the speaker himself did not seem hateful of the US--just critical of its world involvement and critical of the assumed arrogance that consequences of such involvement would never be realized.

    Agree or disagree, it was still an interesting piece, I think.
     
  10. a star war

    a star war Force Ghost star 5

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    May 4, 2016
    I think you're dead wrong, mate. Totally unprovoked.
     
  11. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000
    I was gonna say, I didn't realize we were living in the 1970s!


    Which reminds me, one of the best films you'll ever see about how young people progress into terrorists is The Baader-Meinhof Complex, which is from the director of Downfall.
     
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  12. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    No, he's not wrong. There is no doubt that the attacks were a blowback against US foreign policy.

    The problem is the US is, as Arnold Toynbee once put it, like a big friendly dog in a crowded room. Every time it wags its tail, it knocks over furniture. (Some may dispute the overly-forgiving view of the US that that British historian had).

    And for proof of this, you need not look any further than bin Laden's words himself. UBL (and I love that someone with that much hatred has a name spelled USAma) spoke and wrote extensively on the topic; none more so that 1998 World Islamic Front conference which is broadly understood to be a key step for AQ ratcheting up attacks from the Nairobi and Kenya embassy bombings to an act of hyperterrorism.

    http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

    "First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

    If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.


    Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.


    So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.


    Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula. "

    Then this:

    "On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

    The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."

    I've personally said this is less... moderate tones, so I'll make them moderate now: there exists in the American psyche a fairly widespread and profound blind spot with respect of the cultures of others. By this I mean, the indoctrinated belief in the uniqueness of the American experience and value system lends itself to an assumption that American values are normative values; that people in other countries basically want what Americans want. This seems to come from the persistent belief America was founded from an ideal, and that ideal is a basic human yearning. So when you encounter cultures that are different, there's a lot of assumptions about what will and won't be problematic - like, most obviously, the refusal to account for any possible fracturing in Iraqi between Sunni and Shi'a because once they have Freedom [tm] and democracy they will be beyond such concerns.

    Applying that blindspot here; there was no consideration given to how Muslims may feel to the presence of non-Islamic, pro-Israeli, largely Christian armed forces being stationed in Saudi Arabia might affect the local populace.

    There was no consideration given for the feelings of ordinary Iranians when Mossadeq was toppled and the Shah, a man described by a senior US official as "a bastard... but our bastard", forced upon them.

    There was no consideration of the impact of providing unvetted funding to Mujahideen groups through Pakistan's ISI and the net effect that had in the Middle East of creating the "Afghan Arabs".

    etc, etc.

    What happened was, with the exception of Suez, the US embarked on a foreign policy adventure in the Middle East that was deaf and blind to the concerns such an adventure might raise, or problems it might create. And accordingly, it pissed people off. Ignoring the warning sides with steely resolve, you end up with the US armed forces in Saudi Arabia and a particularly angry, well off young Saudi Qutbist saying it's the duty of all good Muslims (or, the duty of his followers) to kill those Americans to liberate Mecca.

    The September 11 attacks were not provoked; but they were a blowback to arrogant and ignorant foreign policy that with an ounce of thought, could have been avoided.
     
  13. Diggy

    Diggy Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    So anyway....

    I recommend listening to this episode of The Dollop, (a comedy podcast that takes US history seriously, but not.) episode 122

    http://thedollop.libsyn.com/122-the-iraq-war

    It explains the stupid decisions caused by 9/11, and how Murica ****ed up Iraq and created ISIS.
     
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  14. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    The best part?

    bin Laden HATED Saddam. Saddam was a secular socialist who did not adhere to strict Islamic tradition (he used to brag that Iraq's national drink was Johnnie Walker Blue). Bin Laden was a traditionalist inspired by the writings of Sayyid Qutb. So much did bin Laden had Saddam that he offered his battle hardened forces to the Saudis to defend them from Saddam in 1991.

    Yet, Mr Bush and co said they were chums who co-conspired. And that was good enough cause to go to war.
     
  15. a star war

    a star war Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 4, 2016
    First of all, come on. That bait wasn't for you and you know it.

    Second of all, this is the most generous analogy of the United States I've ever heard.
     
  16. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I thought you were talking to Valyn. :(

    And yes, it is but I feel like it's an accurate descriptor for how America self-assesses itself when something goes wrong.

    "We mean well! We never intended harm" etc
     
  17. a star war

    a star war Force Ghost star 5

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    May 4, 2016
    I was talking to Valyn. I wasn't looking for a legitimate answer.

    That may be true of the American public, but that's true of any imperialistic society--at one time or another. The people working "in the interest" of that country never felt that way, obviously.
     
  18. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I think though, America had been - and may still be, I don't know - successful at exporting that image of it. That what Toynbee said is true, it's all just irrational people being cross when America is trying to help.

    One can imagine the British Empire would have attributed dissent to a lack of discipline and staunchly suppressed such sentiment with bayonets.
     
  19. a star war

    a star war Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 4, 2016
    Well, sure, we saved the world from Hitler so that's good for ~100 years of goodwill, anyway.
     
  20. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Nah, that goodwill was burned up by this guy:

    [​IMG]

    The 43rd President of the United States

    [face_flag] [face_flag] [face_flag]
     
  21. seventhbeacon

    seventhbeacon Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 3, 2015
    Hey now, I love Maxwell Smart! He deserves better than to be compared to W!
     
  22. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 18, 2002
    "We?" I didn't know you were a soviet citizen
     
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  23. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Or Churchill. Aka the GOAT.
     
  24. seventhbeacon

    seventhbeacon Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2015

    He's just Stalin for time.
     
  25. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    How does huddling in the foetal position on an island while the Soviets do all the fighting until the Americans are ready to hand hold you finally opening up a second front constitute winning the war, ender?