ST A Call For Civility From A Fellow Poster

Since this post was really off topic in the Rey thread, a moderator has asked me to move this post some place else. Let's look at ways we can improve the civility of the thread. I personally think it is an important discussion that we all should have.

Hi gang, I don'tt see any pleasure in circular arguments where no one gets anything out of than baiting and counter baiting. It's been a very toxic place in some of these threads. Perhaps we all could stand to have a little more respect for each other and not pretend willful arguing is a reasonable facsimile for discourse.

We should all be welcome to express our views and to have dissent to those opinions. There are positive ways to do it. Some of the greatest conversations I have had with other posters come from those who don't have the same point of view or preferences as me. But those conversations don't descend into ad hominems, broad sweeping generalizations, accusations, baiting or willful antagonism. And they don't contain hyperbole either.

And then there are the toxic things that occur here (and quite frankly at any other large fannish board on the internet in about ten bamillion different fandoms) where common courtesy is thrown out the door for the cheap thrill of scoring fannish points.

No one here should have to feel like that they have to justify their preferences--whether it is romance vs. non romance, favorite characters or storylines, director's choices. No one should be called morally bankrupt (or the ad hominem du jour) for liking what they like when it comes to Star Wars.

We have lost a lot of the civility around here, and I think it is time that we as a collective group of fans reclaim that.

If you don't think we have a problem around here, see what social media thinks of this forum. I'm sad to say it is not a pretty reputation. And this saddens me, because I have been here off and on since 2001. This is my fannish home, and I don't want to be driven away like countless other posters who have left out of attrition because they don't like the tone or how they have been treated by other posters.

I love Star Wars. It is why I am here. And I'm not advocating for an echo chamber of gushers. A healthy conversation thrives when there are dissenting views that remain respectful and cordial. But if your sole purpose sticking around is to complain about how much you hate the franchise, how you want it to tank, for KK to be fired or how you are never going to watch another minute of Star Wars again in your life, I really want to politely ask why are you still here? Maybe it's just me, but if I hate something so much, I tend to disengage for my own mental health.

So no, I am not saying if you are a hater you should pack your things and leave. I think we need to be allowed to verbalize our disappointments, dislikes and frustrations. But it has to be in a positive manner. The hate cannot drown out the voices of those who still find joy in the sequel trilogy just like the gushers can't drown out the rest.

But it has to be done with respect. And that is something we have lost.

I challenge each and everyone here to ask yourself these questions: Are you here because you want to share in the joys as well as the frustrations of the films. Or are you here to kick the hornet's nest?

I am not pointing fingers at anyone. I am hardly blameless in this as the rest of you are.

But seriously, why are we all here. And what can we do to make this a more welcoming place for new and old posters? How can we as a collective community improve this forum?

 

This is a good guideline to the many types of disagreement. The ones on the top of the pyramid are the useful ones.

 

I'd like to suggest something. If you are unsure what a poster means or wish for clarification on a post, just ask. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone but I've seen it where a member posts something and is chewed out because there was a misunderstanding. That can derail debate fast.

 

I really think if the posters here go into Solo and enjoy it the overall attitude of this forum will improve. I also think TLJ was bound to be a divisive film no matter what they did. This was the first post ROTJ movie we have ever had in which Luke Skywalker had anykind of a part in. People had basically been spending their entire lives thinking about what Luke would be like as an older man and that was just a recipe for having a lot of upset hardcore Star Wars fans. There was a reason why they made Han virtually identical to the way he was in the OT.

In anycase things will be fine. Hardcore fans are known for changing their tune on a whim. As soon as they see something they like they will be right back on the bandwagon again. We have another movie coming out in a month and probably a good portion of the people that really disliked TLJ will like that movie.

 

Something something rumor has it you cheat at PT Trivia

 

I agree that civility is important to a good discussion and I hope that everybody makes a good effort going forward to be on their best behavior. I know I am after I got banned! That being said, I hope that everyone will also continue to maintain a realistic perspective about how the fandom in general views TLJ. For example the last time I checked, the poll on this forum that asks us to rate TLJ amongst the other films has 29% of respondents ranking it last, and 50% rank it 6th place or lower. By the same token, 30% rank it in their top 3. The point is that TLJ is a divisive film, and there will be no changing that, at least not soon. There will be no “silver bullet” argument that converts the fandom en masse one way or the other. We need to accept that we are going to see a lot of opinions that contradict our own and we may even think are stupid, but that doesn’t entitle us to be rude. We just need to accept that lots of people disagree with us, I know I’ve accepted that for years!

All that being said, I hope that the mods will reconsider opening two threads that reflect the polarization of discussion in general, one for TLJ lovers and one for TLJ haters. It sure would make your lives easier!

 

I find that arguing our fictional preferences as moral imperatives is really divisive.

 

I'm here because I've always been a SW fan and used to post here in the late 90s/early 00s. After RotS I stepped away from SW fandom, and totally missed the TFA boat until the dvd came out... I watched it and was hooked! Loved the new characters, found the acting & story compelling, etc., etc. Came here looking to discuss the new films, read rumors, have fun. Unfortunately, when I came back was a tense time here and almost immediately I was PM'd by someone I didn't know demanding if I was 'one of those Reylos'... needless to say it was an awkward 'welcome back'. I'm here to talk productively & respectfully about something I love without being labelled or ostracized. I think one way it can be a more welcoming place is to not be 'cliquey' or tell people only certain fans do this or people who like this don't like that, accept what people write/post at face value, don't always assume there's an ulterior motive. Also, don't act as if you speak for all the fandom or segments of the fandom, someone can love Luke AND Kylo Ren. It doesn't make them less of a fan because they disagree with you on a specific point.

Well you DO have Lando as your avi....

 

I don't think it is necessary to only post here if you don't want the franchise to fail in its current incarnation and loathe the creative direction that KK and Lucasfilm leadership has taken. I think many displeased with SW still have a love for the underlying brand but hate what it was turned into. Just as many did of the OT when the prequels were released. I would personally prefer if KK was replaced with Dave Filoni and Rian's trilogy was scrapped based on my personal opinion of their creative decisions they have made. At the same time I respect some people don't care and they think they did a wonderful job and I'm not questioning why they need to post here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

I too empathized with Humbert Humbert but I definitely empathized with Lolita more. We can't see her except as Humbert does, and he doesn't comprehend what he has done to her. He destroyed her. He hurt her so so badly. But I like this example because it's kind of how I view stories. I tend to empathize with all the characters. It doesn't matter if they are bad or good. And Humbert's character also made me angry. But one of the reasons I like the story is because I hate and love Humbert at the same time. I hate him for what he does but I love him because I can understand why he does it.

In this story there isn't a happily ever after because for Lolita that would be to get as far away from him as possible. Although Humbert hides her from the reader, showing only his idealized version of her, who she really is seeps through despite his unreliable narration. And I am on her side and she needs to get away from him. Unfortunately he destroyed her life, her childhood, and she can never get it back. But at least she can be free of him, as much as you can be free after someone did that to you.

Humbert's end isn't something I view as justice or not, but as the inevitable given his psychological flaws. He ends in complete dissociation from himself and the world, his mind gone. And that's the path he was on since he was a boy and could not find a way to get on another path.

And the other thing is he doesn't see her, not the real her. He only sees his perverse fantasies. And by the end he began to realize he had more serious feelings, but it's pitiable really. He can only harm her (or any love interest) with his feelings. That is what he is. And it sucks to be that, it really does (I think I might just kill myself if I were that). But there is also what he has done.

 

It's all your fault anyway @Birkendoc

 

Definitely down with more civility - on my part as well as others.

If I can make one simple suggestion which sounds obvious but I think could make a lot of difference. When we all believe in our (often subjective) POVs as passionately as we do, and feelings can run high (over what is supposed to be a fun series of movies), you can't qualify your comments enough.

Pro and I had a back and forth yesterday where we were on opposite sides of opinion on something, but because the subjective nature of our opinions was stressed (probably over-stressed) there were no flare points, because you can't (and have no need to) argue definitively with an opinion. For me, it always comes to this: if something works for someone, it works, and vice versa.

And if we can take bad faith out of that - on the part of the filmmakers, who all believe in their vision and are just trying to tell a story they think is right - as well, then I think - however boring it is to have to state that this is just an opinion and clearly many people didn't like the film/ liked the film, etc, etc - we can rub along a little bit better than we have been. It's not about everyone agreeing, or convincing anyone over to a polar opposite POV.

I think we can all agree from experience that no one is going to budge on their subjective opinions - nor should they. But it is about creating a better space where those polar opposites can co-exist more happily. Disclaimer, I know this probably comes across as patronising. I don't mean it to.

 

I've thought about this often when posting here. I knew someone in real life who killed his wife and then himself. I didn't know him well, had merely worked with him a couple of times and often passed him in the hall. What was interesting to me in the wake of this tragedy was how many of my coworkers, especially those who had worked closely and often with with him, made excuses for him and refused to believe he had done it deliberately, even when more details of the murder came out that made it certain that while it very well might have been a heat of the moment thing influenced by the late hour and alcohol, it could in no way be considered accidental. A few months after their deaths, a few of my coworkers designated a day to celebrate what would have been his wedding anniversary and put up notices urging all of us to join in. I was shocked and yes, appalled. So I've wondered sometimes why I'm more tolerant of Kylo's crimes. I guess there is just such a line of demarcation in my mind between reality and fantasy, and also the fact that he is Han and Leia's son makes me more compassionate towards him than I would otherwise be. I've also wondered, if he physically resembled Snoke, would that change my attitude? The man I knew who killed his wife was tall, good-looking, gregarious. Appearance does play a part in how we perceive characters, as shallow as that seems.

I do believe that the filmmakers intended the audience to sympathize with Kylo, but filmmakers' intentions will never succeed with all of the audience. Hence much of the divide here.

 

Certainly. I hope you're not implying only the "other side" does that, though?

Oh, and for the OP's question- why am I here? Let's say I'm here... for the show. Make of that what you will.

 

I understand your intent but asking dissenters why they're still here seems unproductive. I could just as easily ask gushers why they're still here (or why some of them even lurk the Sanctuary) when there are pro-TLJ echo chambers they could retreat to. It's fine if you prefer to disengage from something you don't enjoy but if someone else doesn't, well, that's their business. As long as someone isn't breaking forum rules, they have a right to share their opinions. Just utilize the ignore function if you find someone really tiresome.

 

Or we could be civil when trying to understand people's different points of view.

 

I find that typically our collective civility falls apart around the defence of Star Wars as a property that we individually own, or through tribalism which deceives us into thinking any one group of us represents some massive demographic that will decide the fate of Star Wars and must stop the opposing views from stealing it away.

This is narcissistic and unrealistic. We are the most hardcore fans. That means we are truly outnumbered by the casual general audience and have more in common with each other than we do the general audience when it comes to our love of Star Wars. Star Wars isn’t owned by us and we will not decide its future. The people who don’t know who Salacious B. Crumb is if asked do. We are the fringe. We are outnumbered greatly by the mainstream and there’s probably less than 60~ people posting here on this forum frequently so we need to get over this notion that fate hangs in the balance with our words here.

Lucasfilm reps aren’t going through these forums thinking, “Hmmm. That was a great point. I feel justified in all the decisions we’ve made because some people love it and can explain that well.” Conversely, they aren’t coming through and going, “Hmmm. That was a great point. Everything we previously supported over months of discussions and meetings and analysis was wrong. Let’s change course!”

The impression that this is a war raging and that our words will decide the fate of Star Wars leads to more emotion and resentment. That leads to fear of losing Star Wars into the future. Which leads to anger, hate, trolling, baiting, “us” versus “them” tribalism, broad generalizations and scapegoating.

I think we need to collectively let go of this if we are to move forward. It won’t be easy. There will always be someone with a viewpoint that’s completely opposed to ours and seemingly strident and not all that interested in what we have to say. When we find ourselves feeling like we are at risk of losing Star Wars to that opposing viewpoint and considering snark on the lower end of that triangle above I encourage us all to laugh instead, ignore if we feel no good will come from engagement, report if we feel something is against the terms of service, and remember that none of us owns Star Wars into the future and that we aren’t going to with our words here or petitions either.

Star Wars didn’t blow up its EU because it was scared of the hardcore fan. It did so because it values the general audience who don’t post online even more. It’s the same reason Trek shows and films went more mainstream. The mainstream general audience owns Star Wars more than us in terms of influence because they outnumber us. And in the mainstream we have more evidence to believe that the biggest divide is occurring among the most invested. Among people like us.

The film has won audience awards. It blew away critics and won the Golden Tomato award for best SciFi film of last year. It has been assessed at 7.0 or greater out of 10 on IMDB, Douban, Amazon, and Bestbuy. All of these things combined tell us that the general audience skews the divide we see among the hard core fandom more toward the positive. So, the future of Star Wars is not in our hands. It won’t be decided by our words. It’s going to be decided by people very different than us whose last time watching a Star Wars movie on TV or in the cinema was the last one they saw in the cinema on a date night.

If we can collectively let go of the weight we feel our words have on the fate of Star Wars and accept that Lucasfilm has demonstrated to all of us already that they are more concerned about losing casual fans who aren’t likely to post on a site like this than they are a divide within the hardcore section of the fandom then we can better remove some of that emotion from the discussion and improve it.

The best part about this forum is that we are all more alike with each other through our love of Star Wars on some level than the average person is. We can go more in depth to talk about what’s working for us or not and why and draw parallels with people who understand those precedents. We can better understand what others prioritize more in Star Wars and try to figure out why that is. Not to convince them of anything but to perhaps find a new way to enjoy an area of Star Wars we had prioritized less but might appreciate more.

If we more often start by sharing with what we love about Star Wars and prioritize high and see those as personal to us then we can more easily move to where we feel these films delivered on that or didn’t and why. And if we recognize that others may not prioritize what we do quite as strongly and what they do than we can better understand why they feel the way they do. That’s where the magic happens. That’s where we gain insight into new ways of loving Star Wars past and present.

 

Respectively, but I don’t think anyone is asking folks to not post here if you hate the movie, I believe the intent is for civility.

If I missed a post that tells dissenters to go away, apologies.

 

I'm responding to this:

"But if your sole purpose sticking around is to complain about how much you hate the franchise, how you want it to tank, for KK to be fired or how you are never going to watch another minute of Star Wars again in your life, I really want to politely ask why are you still here? Maybe it's just me, but if I hate something so much, I tend to disengage for my own mental health."

And I've seen similar sentiments in other threads. If someone goes over the top in their hate then sure, let the mods bring the banhammer down, but otherwise they have the right to stick around without people questioning how they choose to spend their time. I appreciate that OP was not trying to blame one side or the other but if the intent is civility, then not asking people why they're posting here is part of that IMO.

 

I feel like this happens all the time. Mainly I enjoy fiction as fantasy not as a political argument. The Rey VIII thread is about sexism, Kylo Ren is an entitled white male school shooter, shipping Rey and Kylo is abuse or rape advocacy, empathizing with Kylo Ren is being an apologist for all the awful white men who have done terrible things, so on. This isn't normally how I approach fantasy fiction. My primary mode is that characters match archetypes in my own mind, representing parts of myself. It's a mythological realm and my fantasy realm and real life realm tend to be worlds apart. Fantasy is where magic is very possible. It does depends somewhat on the story (like Lolita mentioned earlier is too close to reality which is why I don't want to read it again). Star Wars though is fantasy/space opera and I view it as mythos. Archetypes in my mind don't come in the form of identity politics.

But back to the point, when we argue as moral imperative it's basically like arguing other people's fictional preferences and interests are immoral and therefore it's not okay to have them.

And the Lolita example is good in that if this were a Lolita board I would be pretty disgusted with a fantasy ship of Humbert and Lolita and I probably would argue against it or just leave because it's too upsetting/disturbing. Lolita is just too close to reality.

Anyway I don't think it's about sides as I've done the moral imperative arguing before too and it's simply something people do. But it's also something that inflames discussion and I don't know a work around. I'm not saying people shouldn't do that but maybe we could somehow be more sensitive about this? Or I need to be less sensitive? I really don't know.

 

The question is why it should demand incivillity towards other fans. @dragonchic Not why should you post about something you don't like.