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A Certain Point of View - Movieverse Obi-Wan - Ep. III spoilers allowed! New topic 6/12

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by spiritgurl, Aug 5, 2004.

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  1. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    Before I begin, solojones and I would like to thank obi_ew and Mistress Renata for letting us do another Obi-Wan characterization thread. :)

    Mission Statement:

    This thread is meant for close examination of the character Obi-Wan "Ben" Kenobi as seen in all six Star Wars films and discussion of how to most accurately recreate the film version of the character in fan fiction.

    Here are a few of the goals we have for this thread:
    [ul][li]Serious, intellectually stimulating yet friendly discussion of the film characterization of Obi-Wan[/li]
    [li]Help for those who want to create a film accurate characterization of Obi-Wan in their stories (This includes AU stories so long as they are movieverse based on changing circumstances in the films not the EU. IE: A story where Obi-Wan has a different master than Qui-Gon,  but still done with the movieverse characterizations in mind.)[/li]
    [li]Encouragement and creation of plot bunnies for stories about older Obi-Wan (Sir Alec Guinness) as well as young & strapping ;) Obi-Wan (Ewan McGregor)[/li]
    [li]Encouragement for writers to look beyond the Expanded Universe (JA, JQ, comics, etc) for background information on Obi-Wan and instead make up their own, albeit AU from the EU, histories for the character in their stories based solely on his portrayal in the films.[/li][/ul]
    Modus Operandi

    New topics will be introduced every two weeks that are centered around Obi-Wan in the films such as: film scene dissections, examining Sir Alec Guinness and Ewan McGregor's performances to help us understand and describe the character better, our impressions on the character's relationships with and effects on others, discussion of quotes from George Lucas, Ewan McGregor, and Sir Alec Guinness regarding the character, as well as his lightsaber fighting style, his clothing and gear, etc...

    Along with the new topics, we would also like to encourage authors who have questions about the characterization of film Obi-Wan and want help to speak up and ask for opinions from everyone else. You may do this by either posting your questions directly to the thread OR contact solojones or I via PM about making your question the next official subject of discussion.

    [hl=yellow]In regards to spoilers for Revenge of the Sith:[/hl] Spoilers for Episode III should not be discussed here but if you have some spoiler related questions for one of your stories, you may post a vague request to the thread about it and ask for people who are spoiled to PM you their opinions on the subject.

    We are not, at this time, planning on doing any challenges in this thread, at least partially because the current Obi-Wan workshop does so many already and we wanted this thread to be signifigantly different from the other. We are however considering doing some Round Robins for this in the future if there appears to be enough of an interest among the postership.

    What This Thread is Not:

    We named the thread "Movieverse" Obi-Wan not Canon Obi-Wan in the hopes of avoiding the EU is/isn't canon debate entirely. This thread is in no way meant to slight the Expanded Universe or start up a "what is canon and what is not" type debate. That kind of a discussion will be considered off topic here. 

    This thread is in no way meant to slight the existing [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Fan_Fiction_Resource/b10304/12633456/?3961]Obi-Wan workshop[/link] or the posters there. In fact, we welcome the posters from the Obi workshop thread here and hope at least some will pop in from time to time to give their thoughts or ask for help. We also hope to draw out other writers who may be having trouble creating a film accurate Obi-Wan in their stories and would like help and advice.

    Lastly, the thread is not for complaining about other author's characterizations of Obi-Wan or to put down fellow fan fic authors in any way.  We want this thread to be filled with positive, friendly, intelligent, for the most part serious discussion
     
  2. solojones

    solojones Winner, JCC Word Whiz star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    There are and have been some great discussions at the film boards about some of the topics we?ll be discussing here and that you as writers might have interest in. As topics pop up, I?ll try to keep people here informed of them as I know many of you don?t often venture out of FanFiction. Here are some threads that might be good resources for different topics relating to the film version of Obi-Wan.

    Star Wars Saga
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Star_Wars_Saga/b10456/16170631/?37] The Jedi: Lucas' Influences and Inspirations When Creating the Jedi Order[/link]
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Star_Wars_Saga/b10456/16170631/?37]Saga Significance of film quotes[/link]
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Star_Wars_Saga/b10456/12655678/?470]Personality characteristics in lightsaber styles[/link]
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Star_Wars_Saga/b10456/16329468/?51]Has Obi-Wan Stolen the Show?[/link]
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Star_Wars_Saga/b10456/14399908/?65]Name Meaning[/link]
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Star_Wars_Saga/b10456/13332881/?99]Ot lines with new meanings...[/link]
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Star_Wars_Saga/b10456/15584020/?100]Can't Love, What About pleasure?[/link]

    The Phantom Menace
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Phantom_Menace/b10007/16513728/?7]So Obi-Wan completely messed up the plans of the Sith, huh?[/link]
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Phantom_Menace/b10007/16309562/?18]Obi-Wan Kenobi Discussion Thread v.2[/link]


    Classic Trilogy
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/13218006/?124]"Does Obi-Wan die before he has ever been intimate with a woman?"[/link]
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/15748783/?7]I think it wouldn't be a pretty bad choice for Obi-Wan to tell Luke the WHOLE truth in ANH.[/link]


    Episode III: SPOILERS ALLOWED
    ***Please note that these threads are in the spoiler forum, so if you are not spoiled, you don't want to visit them. I myself am not spoiled so please direct any spoiler-related PMs to spiritgurl, who has given in to the Dark Side :p***

    [link=http://www.theforce.net/episode3/jtf/obiwankenobi.shtml]Just The Facts: Episode III Obi-Wan Kenobi (confirmed Obi-Wan Spoilers for Episode III)[/link]
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=5094629&replies=531]Official Obi-Wan in Episode III spoiler thread[/link]
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=5485244&replies=204]The Official Obi-Wan/Anakin Duel Episode III Spoiler Thread[/link]
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=12368448]Official thread Jedi Disappearing/Jedi Ghosts Episode III Spoiler Thread[/link]



    In addition, there are also some great threads here on the Fan Fiction Resource board that have prompted discussion on topics related to some we might end up talking about in here. Some of these are directly related to Obi-Wan and others encompass things that go hand in hand with writing film-based Obi-Wan stories.

    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Fan_Fiction_Writers_Resource/b10304/12633456/?2252]The Obi-Wan Character Workshop[/link]
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Fan_Fiction_Resource/b10304/16305586/?6]Obi-Evil ? A Plausible AU or Fanfic Fantasy ? Character Discussion[/link]
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Fan_Fiction_Writers_Resource/b10304/12298032/?278]The Demonization of Anakin Skywalker and the Sainthood of Obi-Wan Kenobi ? A Character Discussion[/link]
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Fan_Fiction_Resource/b10304/16165506/?26]Writing a Compelling Lightsaber Duel[/link]
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=6767593&replies=178]T.A.C.T.I.C.S ? Thread for Advice and Criticism Towards Improving Combat Scenes[/link]



     
  3. solojones

    solojones Winner, JCC Word Whiz star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    First Topic: The Dark Side and Obi-Wan

    ?Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny.?- Yoda, ESB

    What are the glimpses we see of Obi-Wan's Dark Side in the films? What would he be like were he to turn to the Dark Side? What would it take for him to turn? Would he? Why and how is he able to resist doing so in the films?

    This will be our discussion topic for two weeks. For the first week, discussion should revolve around these questions in relation to the films. In the second week, everyone will be encouraged to post excerpts from their own work which address the topic. These excerpts will be open to discussion and constructive criticism at the author's discretion. In addition, posting links to other authors' fics dealing with the topic will be encouraged. We'll let everyone know when excerpt posting should begin and give some further guidelines then on how constructive criticism should be handled.

    Let the discussion begin :)
     
  4. JediMaster_Jen

    JediMaster_Jen Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2002
    1. The anger and rage he displayed in the slaying of Darth Maul in TPM.

    2. His jealousy of Anakin with respect to the attention the boy was given from Qui-Gon in TPM.

    3. His own arrogance, which Yoda referred to when he told Obi-Wan that even the older and more experienced Knights had that problem. Maybe it wasn't just Anakin's abilities that were making him arrogant, but the fact that his mentor had the same problem.

    4. His slaying of that beast in the arena on Geonosis. He seemed pretty angry when he stabbed that thing through the head.

    5. His duel with Dooku. Yoda told Luke in ESB that a Jedi used the Force only for defense, never attack. Well, Obi-Wan certainly attacked Dooku first, displaying again his anger and rage at a Sith.

    I think he'd be dangerous if he turned, just as any Jedi would be dangerous. Those kinds of powers unleashed on a galaxy in an evil manner would always have horrible consequences, no matter who the turned Jedi is.

    I don't, however, think he would turn. I always got the feeling that his promise to Qui-Gon meant the world to him. If he turned, who'd train Anakin. I think that's why he's able to resist, although not completely. The PT shows us that he certainly had his slips.

    I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father.-Obi-Wan Kenobi to Luke Skywalker in ANH.

    Makes ya wonder what he really meant, doesn't it? Maybe they were more alike than anyone ever knew.
     
  5. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Hmm . . . thank you for the invite sj, many interesting questions to ponder here. As for glimpses of Obi-Wan's dark side, I'll go for a non-obvious one . . . that little smirk on his face after he lops off Dr. What's-his-guts' arm in the cantina in ANH. He is not standing there thinking, "Oh my God! I just lopped off somebody's arm!!" He's clearly thinking, "Oh, yeah. That felt pretty good. Lopped off somebody's arm. Haven't gotten to do that in a while."

    It was actually this scene that made me into an Obi-Wan fan a loooong time ago, during GL's Howard the Duck Period. (And what was all that about, anyway?) I was really intrigued by the idea of this ascetic old holy man (whom Harrison Ford notoriously referred to as "Mother Superior") enjoying being able to lop a few arms off now and again. I figured he had to have been hell on wheels as a young guy, and I invented a background to go with it.

    As for what he'd be like if he'd joined the dark side . . . I think to some extent that would depend on when he turned and what the precipitating event was. Clearly, once he's a middle-aged adult, the dark side is no longer a possibility. If having your student turn evil, kill everyone you know, and enslave the entire galaxy isn't enough to make someone join the dark side, then nothing is.

    I think a discriminating Sith Lord could have got him early, though . . . I'd say by age 13 or 14, tops. As for what mechanism the Sith would use to get him to embrace the dark, again, that would depend on circumstances. A tiny Obi in the clutches of the Sith (what a sad thought! :_| )might have been raised to believe that all other beings were inferior, and that he had the right to use them and treat them however he chose. We know he's got a touch of the flaw of arrogance about him even as a grown Jedi, so I could see this approach working quite well. In this case, he would be Darth Snot-Face Git, who would spend a great deal of time running down slow old people with a speeder, and taunting people who have dorky hobbies--i.e., people obsessed with the Star Wars version of Star Wars. ("Not very long ago, in a galaxy really, really close . . . ")

    Now, if the Sith had managed to nab him when he was closer to Anakin's age in TPM, they'd have to use a different tactic. I think the Sith could have used rage and fury to their advantage in this case. In the SW universe, as, perhaps, in life, fury is the flip side of love. You don't see cold, calculating Sith like Sidious and Dooku flying off the handle, and as far as we know, they've never loved anyone either. By contrast, take a SW character whose beloved mentor/parent/ or (maybe) spouse is in mortal danger, and he goes berzerk.

    So a 9 or 10-year-old Obi-Wan who'd had an otherwise decent upbringing could fall into the hands of the Sith and become convinced that his caretakers betrayed him, etc., etc. Having once known love, he would be susceptible to rage if that love-relationship were exploited or destroyed somehow. I think the Sith could have had one very, very ticked-off Sith Lord on their hands if they had followed this plan. In this case, Obi-Wan would be Darth ******* ******-****** *** ** * ***** ****, and he would scream at Taxi drivers and attack completely random people with a flame-thrower.

    This, at any rate, is my thesis of the moment.
     
  6. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    JediMaster_Jen:

    4. His slaying of that beast in the arena on Geonosis. He seemed pretty angry when he stabbed that thing through the head.

    I saw that as more of a satisfaction type reaction than pure rage. Like if something were chasing you around trying to kill you, you might be pretty keen to see that thing dead too. lol Though it is still a dark side reaction either way. ;)

    5. His duel with Dooku. Yoda told Luke in ESB that a Jedi used the Force only for defense, never attack. Well, Obi-Wan certainly attacked Dooku first, displaying again his anger and rage at a Sith.

    I actually saw him as being quite calm in that duel (though certainly concerned about the deep poodoo he was now in trying to take Dooku by himself and not knowing for sure if Anakin was okay). That duel wasn't so much about his rage towards Dooku, I think, but about the necessity to stop this evil man from doing more damage. Anakin is the one who really acted on the "revenge" instinct which comes out in his dialogue "You're going to pay for all the Jedi you killed today Dooku." (I'm doing that dialogue purely from memory so sorry if it's at all off)

    I don't, however, think he would turn. I always got the feeling that his promise to Qui-Gon meant the world to him. If he turned, who'd train Anakin.

    Agreed, I really feel that the promise to Qui-Gon is something that would just break his heart if he had to break that - which makes what happens to Anakin later all the more heartwrenching for Obi-Wan.

    ophelia
    He is not standing there thinking, "Oh my God! I just lopped off somebody's arm!!" He's clearly thinking, "Oh, yeah. That felt pretty good. Lopped off somebody's arm. Haven't gotten to do that in a while."

    [face_laugh] [face_laugh] Something like that, yes. lol...

    We know he's got a touch of the flaw of arrogance about him even as a grown Jedi, so I could see this approach working quite well. In this case, he would be Darth Snot-Face Git, who would spend a great deal of time running down slow old people with a speeder, and taunting people who have dorky hobbies--i.e., people obsessed with the Star Wars version of Star Wars. ("Not very long ago, in a galaxy really, really close . . . ")

    Once again... [face_laugh] [face_laugh]

    "Darth Snot-Face Git" [face_laugh] Oh, man... You know, I am not really into the idea of Sith Obi-Wan but THAT story, I would definitely read. :D

    You don't see cold, calculating Sith like Sidious and Dooku flying off the handle, and as far as we know, they've never loved anyone either. By contrast, take a SW character whose beloved mentor/parent/ or (maybe) spouse is in mortal danger, and he goes berzerk.

    Dooku is an interesting character because here's an older man, raised a Jedi, who obviously has turned. Because of this, I sort of think that there is always potential in any of the characters to turn at any time in their lives - given that the right buttons have been pushed.

    sg
     
  7. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    spiritgurl wrote: I sort of think that there is always potential in any of the characters to turn at any time in their lives - given that the right buttons have been pushed.

    You could be right, although I have no idea what those buttons would be for Obi-Wan. It seems like Vader and the Emperor would have completely exhausted the fear and anger path to the dark side fro him . . . I'm really not sure what's left.

    I suppose you could argue "delusional messiah-complex-ness," which is a species of arrogance, but the mere fact that it's delusional implies that it's not freely chosen. I don't think you can get to the dark side (at least to stay) except consciously and on purpose. It may be possible for Jedi to have non-intentional slip-ups, sort of like Obi-Wan's unthinking rush at Maul after Qui-Gon gets stabbed, or Luke's whacking Vader's hand off after Vader threatens Leia. That's darkness, all right, but there's a non-deliberate, temporarily-insane quality about it. For all we know, the Jedi Order considers "stumbled" Jedi rehabilitatable, and not truly committed to darkness at all. The fact that Anakin hasn't been expelled prior to RotS would suggest this, unless he just kind of didn't mention that little village-slaughtering incident. (It takes a Jedi to raze a village . . .)

    I just don't see an adult Obi-Wan deliberately choosing the dark side, but I can imagine him having really perilous moments under the right circumstances . . . which we may see in RotS. :D
     
  8. Hananiah

    Hananiah Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2003
    Obi Wan has so much intensity that he brings to both battle and life as a padawan to me I think that intensity would be a very threatening to behold. Obi Wan is one of the last Jedi and to do that he had to have had skills.

    I think that the closest he came to the darkside in my own opinion is when Qui Gon died, but I could also see him draw on some darkside mojo when Anakin lost his arm as well.
     
  9. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    You know I typed up this answer this morning and then when I went to send it came up "page not found" and I lost what I'd typed! UGH! :mad: Oh, well... I'm going to try to remember what I had typed now...

    *What are the glimpses we see of Obi-Wan's Dark Side in the films?

    I'd say his reaction to Maul killing Qui-Gon definitely. I don't really think there's that much support in film to say he had a strong dark side jealousy going about Qui-Gon's interest in Anakin, but I do certainly see hurt and agitation in Ewan's performance when Qui-Gon says he's going to take Anakin as his padawan learner. I don't think anyone could really blame Obi-Wan for being upset over that though, it's a very human reaction to that particular situation. I know the novelization gets more into it, showing him have more of a reaction of jealousy but remember we are looking at the performance on screen for this, with few exceptions, and not blanks that have been filled in by outside sources.

    *What would he be like were he to turn to the Dark Side?

    I think he'd be sort of cool and calculating one moment then explode the next... sort of a twist on how he is as a Jedi. ;) As a jedi, he tries to be cool and think first but then when it comes down to it he can surprise you and react quite rashly (jumping out the windown in AOTC, for instance)

    *What would it take for him to turn? Would he?

    Luke's death, especially if it was something that Obi-Wan felt he could/should have stopped, I think, would be enough to send him into a serious downwars spiral (especially if he had no knowledge of Leia or if she were dead as well). Palpatine, and probably/possibly Vader would no doubt delight in torturing him with such knowledge.

    Hm... *a plot bunnie hops by suddenly and scratches behind its ear a moment before continuing on...* another possible scenario, if the Jedi had betrayed him in some way that might send him down the road to turning. Perhaps if they'd sent him and Anakin away after PM, after telling him he could not train Anakin or he would be expelled from the order, but Obi-Wan's promise to Qui-Gon won't allow him to give up on Anakin. He might develope sour feelings towards the Order in this case, and if he came across Dooku's path at some point, who knows how long it would have taken for he AND Anakin to be manipulated into sort of Dark Jedi, and later Sith.

    *Why and how is he able to resist doing so in the films?

    It seems like promises to Obi-Wan are very important. His promise to Qui-Gon, as mentioned by someone before, was something I think he intended to keep hell or highwater. And he's made a committment to the Jedi Order, a promise I dont think it's a stretch to say. His strong sense of duty keeps him to those promises I think.


    Liz
     
  10. solojones

    solojones Winner, JCC Word Whiz star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    Woohoo, great to see a nice response so far. Warning: Massive post coming. (Any of you who've been with me in film board discussions know all about that :p)

    First I wanted to quote some things that Yoda says about the Dark Side in ESB. Partly just to help me remember but partly also because I think it can be insight to all of us on the kind of things that the Jedi are taught about the Dark Side. We know Yoda teaches Jedi when they are very young, and I felt like a lot of what he taught Luke was what he would have taught in the 'pre-padawan' stage, whatever that's called. (I guess he does call them padawans in AotC, but that's another topic :p) Which means it's what Obi-Wan would have been taught from a young age as well and been aware of.

    [blockquote]
    YODA: A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.

    LUKE: Vader... Is the dark side stronger?

    YODA: No...no...no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.

    LUKE: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?

    YODA: You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.
    [/blockquote]



    Now that I have those in mind I can comment ;)

    JediMaster_Jen
    Maybe it wasn't just Anakin's abilities that were making him arrogant, but the fact that his mentor had the same problem.

    I think that's a valid point. The impression I get from AOTC is that Anakin has kind of picked up on the same "I'm a Jedi and that makes me the man" attitude that Obi-Wan has had since TPM. The way Anakin says "Jedi Business" in the Outlander Club reminds me so much of TPM Obi-Wan.

    It's interesting though that Yoda never mentions arrogance being something of the Dark Side. The whole Jedi Council is rather arrogant by the time of AOTC and it's reasonable to assume it's a big reason for their downfall. Is it that arrogance as a Jedi can make you blind to the Dark Side, rather than really leading you personally to it? Or also, as we see somewhat in Anakin's case, is it that it can make you power hungry so you'll do anything to get that power?

    To me Obi-Wan's arrogance centers around needing to be respected, especially by those 'beneath' him, like Anakin.

    His slaying of that beast in the arena on Geonosis. He seemed pretty angry when he stabbed that thing through the head.

    His killing of the Acklay was definitely excessive. I mean, sure it makes for a 'cool' moment that I think many of us like ;) However, it's overly vicious for a Jedi. I think it shows a moment of Obi-Wan being wrapped up completely in the combat. Makes me wonder how far he might stretch that aggression in RotS when he's a General.


    Well, Obi-Wan certainly attacked Dooku first, displaying again his anger and rage at a Sith.

    In general he's pretty composed when he fights Dooku, but he does attack first, which is interesting. I'm going to wait to see what others may have said about this later on in this large copied chunk of posts I have here ;)

    I always got the feeling that his promise to Qui-Gon meant the world to him. If he turned, who'd train Anakin. I think that's why he's able to resist, although not completely. The PT shows us that he certainly had his slips.

    That's an interesting theory, and kind of ironic. For the whole objection he has to attachment via the code, Obi-Wan is certainly attached to Anakin. So does that help keep him kind of 'in line'? Yeah, I think there's something to that. I mean, I think it has made him much more aware of the Code and all, at least in theory. However, I have often wondered if him training Anakin has made him the best or worst version of himself.

    Makes ya wonder what he really meant, doesn't it? Maybe they were more alike than anyone ever knew.

    Oh, I have no doubt that they have some of the same struggles. Their fairly parallel stor
     
  11. solojones

    solojones Winner, JCC Word Whiz star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    Just a note, I've added a list of Episode III Spoiler Thread references to the list of reference links, for those who may be interested in them.

    That being said...Avoid spoilers like the plague! :p

    [hl=darkgreen]-sj loves kevin spacey[/hl]
     
  12. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    good golly that's a long post sj! :eek:

    I'm going to come back and answer that more tomorrow but I did want to get to your two questions in bold first. ;)

    If Obi-Wan's attachment to Qui-Gon is what keeps him anchored, and attachment can be manipulated for the use of evil, could this loyalty of his ever be twisted for the purposes of the Dark Side?

    I think my suggestion/plot bunny about Obi-Wan being dismissed from the Order when he insists on training Anakin with or without the JC's permission is a situation where that loyalty could be manipulated and used for Evil. I mean, he is likely to be crushed by this, and bitter, The Jedi are his life and being a Knight clearly means a lot to him. If he then was dismissed when asked to break his promise to Qui-Gon I would think that would be crushing to him. Then if Dooku and/or Palpatine entered the picture and began their subtle manipulations... [face_devil]

    edit: Oh! Also wanted to add that wouldn't young Obi-Wan, only shortly after Qui-Gon's death be drawn to his "grandfather" Dooku (Qui-Gon's former Master) and be likely to listen to and bond with him in such a situation?

    Does Obi-Wan, in the fight with Maul, consciously turn away from drawing on the Dark Side? What are the lasting effects of using the Dark Side on the user (in this case, on Obi-Wan specifically)?

    Hmmm... I think once he fell down the well, he was able to gather his thoughts and recognize that that rage that was just consuming him moments ago had very nearly led to his downfall (literally! [face_laugh]) and that's when he calms himself and pushes away those dark thoughts.

    As for lasting effects... see I know that Yoda says forever it will dominate your destiny but... I don't know... somehow it seems to me like someone who has faced evil, or more specifically evil within themselves, and turned away from it, would actually be a stronger person for that. I don't think someone who has never dealt with that sort of thing can really say for sure they are better than someone who has. If that makes any sense. So I think at least one lasting effect would be that Obi-Wan is now a stronger wiser person for that experience. In that scene, he recognized that the path of hate and revenge is not going to fix things, only make them worse (such as causing him to possibly fall to his death) so he's become stronger and wiser because of that.

    sg

    edit: I myself am not spoiled so please direct any spoiler-related PMs to spiritgurl, who has given in to the Dark Side ***

    *ignites crimson blade of lightsaber...then ignites the blade on the other side... grins evilly*


    edit: sheesh I wish there was a spellcheck on this board. :p
     
  13. Terr_Mys

    Terr_Mys Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Now that I have those in mind I can comment

    When I first saw the topic of discussion, I knew I'd have to go digging through my comp to find my ESB script. Thanks for saving me the trouble ;)

    It's interesting though that Yoda never mentions arrogance being something of the Dark Side. The whole Jedi Council is rather arrogant by the time of AOTC and it's reasonable to assume it's a big reason for their downfall. Is it that arrogance as a Jedi can make you blind to the Dark Side, rather than really leading you personally to it? Or also, as we see somewhat in Anakin's case, is it that it can make you power hungry so you'll do anything to get that power?

    To me Obi-Wan's arrogance centers around needing to be respected, especially by those 'beneath' him, like Anakin.


    Well, in this sense couldn't arrogance be seen as a compensation for some insecurity, i.e. fear? I think it's evident that the Jedi are quite comfortable with their status and position of power in the galaxy, and while there is not an overwhelming fear that the Sith will have their vengeance and destroy the Order, I think that's definitely something that troubles the Jedi after Maul's appearance, especially those on the Council. Although Yoda, Mace et al. may not display a blatant fear or anything, they are clearly uncertain and worry about the Sith that was not killed. So, in a sense I think that even this slightest dip into an element of the Dark Side has some dire consequences for the Council, because, as Yoda says, 'the Dark Side clouds everything.' That doesn't necessarily refer simply to a massive, active deception through the Force on the part of Sidious, but rather the 'clouding' nature of the Dark Side is present even in the fear of the Council members. So I think that the Dark Side (in the form of fear) is what makes the Council blind to Sidious' plots, and that their arrogance is simply a compensation for that fear. We can't have the Jedi Council being worried and unsure about anything, now- they think that they are defeating the Dark Side by being so confident, when in reality it's just covering up the source of their fear.

    As for OW, I think the same general idea can be applied. First of all, let's compare AOTC OW with OT OW- in terms of arrogance, the difference is quite remarkable. I think there's always a part of OW that's just a little bit smug and cocky, but clearly the whole loss of a padawan thing humbles him greatly ;). But still, that initial arrogance and need to be respected perhaps stems from...a fear of not being respected? I'm not sure entirely, but it is possible that in OW's youthful brooding psyche, he took Qui-Gon's dismissiveness (and faith in Anakin) as a sign of a lack of respect for his padawan. But moreover, this probably stems mostly from OW's promise to Qui-Gon to train Anakin. OW has a great fear of not fulfilling that promise, of not being a capable Master- and so, he compensates with arrogance. As for Anakin, again I think his arrogance and power-hunger are simply compensations for his fears, particularly the fear of helplessness, which primarily stems from 1) not being able to free his mother, and moreover, 2) not being able to save her life.

    Yes, if they'd somehow spotted and desired his talents that early on, I could see that as well. I just had a really weird thought. I think, under these circumstances, he could have turned out a lot like Maul. Think about it. They're the same age so if Sidious were to train Obi-Wan instead of Maul, it could have been *him* sent after the Jedi around the time of TPM. And can't you just imagine he'd have great swordsmanship and think himself the man, just like Maul? ... I think my head's going to explode now

    Ahh...head explosion-inducing plot bunnies :( Scram! Oh...wait, I don't write in the first place. :p

    If Obi-Wan's attachment to Qui-Gon is what keeps him anchored, and attachment can be manipulated for the use of evil, could this loyalty of his ever be twisted for the purposes of the Dark Side?

    Well, we see Dooku try to d
     
  14. solojones

    solojones Winner, JCC Word Whiz star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    sg
    good golly that's a long post sj!

    I know. I just can't help it. I warned you :p This is what happens a lot in the film boards with me. Ask ophelia. We've been in the lightsabre thread together since the beginning and there have been a good deal of crazy long posts there. But it's been infinitely helpful in deepening my appreciation and understanding of the things I've discussed. Helps with writing and enjoying the movies more :D

    If he then was dismissed when asked to break his promise to Qui-Gon I would think that would be crushing to him. Then if Dooku and/or Palpatine entered the picture and began their subtle manipulations...

    Right, but he'd be dismissed because he wanted to take Anakin as his padawan and they wouldn't allow it, right? In this AU? So he would still have Anakin to train but he couldn't fully make Anakin a Jedi now could he. Not without the Order. That would be crushing to him. The idea of Palpatine tempting them both over to the Dark Side is interesting. Veeeery interesting. I feel like we're going to generate way too many plot bunnies I want to see written out of the discussions in this thread. Perhaps we should keep a list for each topic...? I'd like to have a place here to keep a list of those so people who see them here might write some of them and give us something interesting to read :D

    Oh! Also wanted to add that wouldn't young Obi-Wan, only shortly after Qui-Gon's death be drawn to his "grandfather" Dooku (Qui-Gon's former Master) and be likely to listen to and bond with him in such a situation?

    Ahhh, also interesting. You stop it with your ideas, you ;) Even in AOTC, Dooku is able to get a reaction out of Obi-Wan more passionate (though attempting to be controlled) than most are able to get out of him at this time. I think if he were to kind of bring his offers and talk about Qui-Gon to Obi-Wan at this point in his life... when he's just been rejected from the Order... man, the Sith could end up with one bad team :cool: But what about the 'always two there are' thing? Could there be two sets of Sith master/apprentice working together? Or would they end of squabbling? We really need to organize these bunnies and a way of letting people claim them...

    I think once he fell down the well, he was able to gather his thoughts and recognize that that rage that was just consuming him moments ago had very nearly led to his downfall (literally! ) and that's when he calms himself and pushes away those dark thoughts.

    I do too, but also remember that he still cuts Maul in half, which is clearly really aggressive. And he has that kind of satisfied snarl there going on as well. A little part of him still enjoyed it in a Dark Side way, I think. That's some evidence, to me at least, that the Dark Side can be rejected but is very tenacious once it gets its hold on you.

    it seems to me like someone who has faced evil, or more specifically evil within themselves, and turned away from it, would actually be a stronger person for that.

    Oh, I definitely agree. I think in the long run, that is what makes Obi-Wan such a strong person. See my comments on why I think some Council members wanted him to train Anakin up there when you have the time to ;) I'm just saying I think immediately after the Duel, for the healing period after that, it would be something Obi-Wan would have to confront more fully. I don't think an experience like that is just something you walk away from.

    *ignites crimson blade of lightsaber...then ignites the blade on the other side... grins evilly*

    *ignites blue blade cooly, confidently, then flips over your head*


    ------

    Terr
    When I first saw the topic of discussion, I knew I'd have to go digging through my comp to find my ESB script. Thanks for saving me the trouble

    I just used Google, brainiac :p I have the physical copy of the annotated screenplays right around here, though...somewhere.

    Well, in this sense couldn't arrogance be seen as a compensation for some ins
     
  15. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    solojones I'm not scared, sj... I just have to give some more thought (and have some more time) before I reply. ;) I sort of would love to have time to rewatch some scenes this weekend too because that might help me add to the conversation. :D

    I will reply to this now though...

    Perhaps we should keep a list for each topic...? I'd like to have a place here to keep a list of those so people who see them here might write some of them and give us something interesting to read

    We really need to organize these bunnies and a way of letting people claim them...


    Well... two ideas: one is to just add a list of plot bunnies to the opening topic - but then it'd be nice if people read the discussion before they write. :p I also think that would make the first page rather long rather quickly so I'm not sure I like that idea that much. Here's the second idea: at the end of each topic we can have a list of plot bunnies put up just before we start the next topic. :) That way people have read the discussion first.

    Also, we can perhaps when we get going more, have links on the end of one of the first posts to the start of the different discussions to make things easier to find later.

    what do you think?

    sg
     
  16. Terr_Mys

    Terr_Mys Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I just used Google, brainiac tongue I have the physical copy of the annotated screenplays right around here, though...somewhere.

    No you don't. I stole it. :)

    Their overall arrogance as an Order was probably around before this. I mean, Qui-Gon had disagreed with them before, right, and they had probably had some questionable policies.

    Right, and I think that that arrogance can at least partially be attributed to the fear of losing the status and power they have as Jedi, either by having it challenged by some misfit like Qui-Gon, or by having it challenged by the Senate- which is why they're forced to cozy up to it at times and are afraid to admit that their powers are declining. And of course Qui-Gon is easier to dismiss than the Senate...hmm...now I'm starting to wonder if the Council didn't have any involvement with Darth Maul... [face_thinking] :p

    I think to an extent that fear is in most of us. People want other people to admire them, to respect them, to esteem them. And for a Jedi, that's probably only magnified by the fact that they aren't supposed to receive this praise from the outside. They do good without asking for anything in return, but they still *want* something in return from someone. That's why I think the Order becomes one kind of big family. And if your family doesn't respect you, who will?

    Yeah, that's a very good point. In a way, a Jedi's relationship with other Jedi in the Order can serve as a way for them to get the personal esteem they crave. But in OW's case, it's slightly more difficult because no matter how much Anakin respects him (and clearly the Master-Padawan relationship is the most important in the Order), he still has that fear of not living up to the expectations defined in his promise to Qui-Gon. OW consciously treats Anakin the way he believes he would treat any Padawan, but deep down there's also the burden of being assigned the 'Chosen One' (regardless of how much faith exactly OW puts in the prophecy), and the fear of not being a good enough Master for the Chosen One produces arrogance. I think that arrogance is far more dangerous than the cocky self-confidence OW has in his own abilities, though, although in terms of using the Force, it has the same blinding consequences as it does on all of the Jedi Masters.

    On top of that, there's just a huge problem with the difference of personality between OW and Anakin...but I reckon we'll get into that discussion later. :p

    The most arrogant people on the outside are sometimes the most self-conscious on the inside.

    Or, they berate themselves and wallow in their insecurities to someone who'll listen. Hrmm... [face_worried]

    Oh, but you will. I'm going to release so many bunnies in your head, you'll think that was a clone army of Ewan instead of Jango. Muahahahha!

    Clara = Boba? :confused: I'll have to watch RotJ again and see if there's any romantic tension between Fett and R2 on the sail barge...

    See, before I even read your post on this I think we came to the same conclusion about it, making the Dooku/AOTC connection

    What, you mean I'm supposed to read other posts in a discussion thread? ;) :p

    It seems someone has been reading SotC No, but really, I think we talked about this some when I was writing this part and came to this concensus about it. Maul clearly builds up the frustration in Obi-Wan throughout the fight, regarding him only as a minor threat (no, not the band, sorry). That just adds to his anger with Maul by the end.

    Hey, I wasn't even thinking about SotC when I was writing that. I can't help that most of my analytical insight about OW's character comes from reading your story and discussing it with you :(. But yeah, I forgot to mention the whole being treated as a minor threat thing; that goes hand-in-hand with his inward frustration, so it's kind of an explosive blend, and Qui-Gon's death is the match that ignites it. If that didn't happen though and OW hadn't utilized the Dark Side, I really don't think he would've had a chance in Duc
     
  17. solojones

    solojones Winner, JCC Word Whiz star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    sg
    I'm not scared, sj... I just have to give some more thought (and have some more time) before I reply.

    I know you're not, you're at least somewhat used to it ;) I've just been glad to see some people I hadn't previously had the chance to discuss things with posting in here and I hope they stick with it and I hope some more people join in. Or if this topic isn't their thing, I'd like if they joined in with subsequent discussions :)

    I sort of would love to have time to rewatch some scenes this weekend too because that might help me add to the conversation.

    Yeah, I know what you mean. It would help. But I'm not sure I trust myself not to go into deep scene discussions though :p Want to save that for later.

    The second idea about listing bunnies at the end of each discussion is great, IMHO. That was kind of what I was thinking. Hadn't thought about keeping an index in the first post of links to the starting post of each discussion, but that's a *great* idea. That way people who come along later can read through discussions we've had and get some plot bunnies on those topics.

    And yeah, if we keep a list of plot bunnies, I'd like people who have adopted one to let everyone in the thread know so we can read the stories. I, for one, would love to read what people might have to write about some of these bunnies :D

    -----

    Terr

    Well clearly the Council is scared of losing power, and I think they actually instill that same kind of fear in all the Jedi, actually. Which is very wrong. They threaten with all of these strict rules and kind of hold the fear of expulsion over them sometimes, I think.

    On top of that, there's just a huge problem with the difference of personality between OW and Anakin...but I reckon we'll get into that discussion later.

    I think that's a safe assumption to make :p ;)

    Clara = Boba? I'll have to watch RotJ again and see if there's any romantic tension between Fett and R2 on the sail barge...

    [face_laugh] Now *you're* going to scare people away from the thread with our crazy eso jokes.

    I can't help that most of my analytical insight about OW's character comes from reading your story and discussing it with you.

    Well that's true, those discussions of ours have been invaluable in my writing :)

    If that didn't happen though and OW hadn't utilized the Dark Side, I really don't think he would've had a chance in Duck Planet to beat Maul head-to-head.

    Hm, yeah that's an interesting thing to think about. Without the Dark Side, could Obi-Wan have beaten Maul.. [face_thinking]

    I highly doubt Anakin or Luke would be able to remain calm while hanging onto that little outcropping for dear life.

    Well actually, I think Luke would have. I think Luke has a gentle spirit and, while he's not perhaps always the most grown up of people, I think he has great motivation to do what's right and turn away from the Dark Side. Luke was the one, after all, who threw himself over the edge at Cloud City rather than joining Vader.

    Oh yeah...and sweet buttons? No more benadryl for you, Rach.

    Oh yeah Mister "chance in Duck Planet", what's your excuse?

    So erm...to get back on the topic of Dark Obi-Wan...ENFP! That is all.

    [face_laugh] Well I think this is actually something for a possible topic in the future. So you still lose ;)


    [hl=darkgreen]-sj loves kevin spacey[/hl]
     
  18. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Faugh on your ENFP! [link=http://hokev.brinkster.net/quiz/default.asp?quiz=Better+Personality&page=1]This site[/link] has a *real* personality test, which does in fact measure personalities along a contiuum of "constructive" to "destructive," presumably in the external, social, light side/dark side sense.

    Of course, it's probably as scientifically accurate a measure of personality as the "Do Not Eat" label on a packet of silica, but who cares. It's entertaining.

    I tried to take the test as Obi-Wan would, and got this:

    You are an SEDF--Sober Emotional Destructive Follower. This makes you an evil genius. You are extremely focused and difficult to distract from your tasks. With luck, you have learned to channel your energies into improving your intellect, rather than destroying the weak and unsuspecting.

    Your friends may find you remote and a hard nut to crack. Few of your peers know you very well--even those you have known a long time--because you have expert control of the face you put forth to the world. You prefer to observe, calculate, discern and decide. Your decisions are final, and your desire to be right is impenetrable.

    You are not to be messed with. You may explode.


    If we assume that I must've answered the questions wrong, since Obi-Wan is so clearly "con-" rather than "de-" structive, we get:

    You are an SECF--Sober Emotional Constructive Follower. This makes you a hippie. You are passionate about your causes and steadfast in your commitments. Once you've made up your mind, no one can convince you otherwise. Your politics are left-leaning, and your lifestyle choices decidedly temperate and chaste.

    You do tremendous work when focused, but usually you operate somewhat distracted. You blow hot and cold, and while you normally endeavor on the side of goodness and truth, you have a massive mean streak which is not to be taken lightly. You don't get mad, you get even.

    Please don't get even with this web site.


    If we further assume that I screwed up, since General Kenobi's not a follower, we end up with:

    You are an SECL--Sober Emotional Constructive Leader. This makes you a politician. You cut deals, you change minds, you make things happen. You would prefer to be liked than respected, but generally people react to you with both. You are very sensitive to criticism, since your entire business is making people happy.

    At times your commitment to the happiness of other people can cut into the happiness of you and your loved ones. This is very demanding on those close to you, who may feel neglected. Slowly, you will learn to set your own agenda--including time to yourself.

    You are gregarious, friendly, charming and charismatic. You like animals, sports, and beautiful cars. You wear understated gold jewelry and have secret bad habits, like chewing your fingers and fidgeting.

    You are very difficult to dislike.


    A politician . . . Obi-Wan would just *die.*

    Honestly, I think the first one is closest.

     
  19. solojones

    solojones Winner, JCC Word Whiz star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    [face_laugh] Interesting site, ophelia. Now give up and admit that the MBTI has officially owned you ;) Also, we are actually considering doing something with MBTI here as a topic sometime. We can further discuss some things we've already discussed in our PMs and posts.

    And then you can post a link to the highly scientific "Who is your Star Wars twin?" to fie on MBTI :p

    [hl=darkgreen]-sj loves kevin spacey[/hl]
     
  20. solojones

    solojones Winner, JCC Word Whiz star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    All right, now we?re to the second week of this discussion topic and that means it?s time for excerpts, links, and all of that fun stuff. We?ve had some excellent discussion from everyone thusfar, and now it?s time to figure out how we can all actually apply these ideas to our stories. Since this is the first discussion topic we?ve had here, allow me to explain how we?d like this to work.

    Posting Excerpts

    1. If you have written or are writing a story that deals with the topic under discussion, you are encouraged to post an excerpt of that story exemplifying the topic during this second week of the discussion.

    2. Please keep excerpts to 1000 words or under. You may also give a short explanation/set up of the excerpt.

    3. Include a link to your story for those who might be interested in reading it. One purpose of this thread is to help connect Obi-Wan fans to Obi-Wan stories. The mark up code is [*link=URL of story]Name of story[/*link] minus the asterisks.

    4. Please indicate whether you?d like to receive constructive criticism on the story either by PM or within this thread.

    5. Please do not simply post an excerpt without also reading and commenting on the other excerpts that are posted.

    6. For the time being, only one excerpt post is allowed per person per discussion topic.

    7. If your story contains some elements of the EU, but is mostly based on the movie version of events and characters, you may still post an excerpt from it. However, please post an excerpt that contains only movieverse characters so that the discussion of the excerpt can still revolve around the movies.


    Giving Constructive Criticism

    1. Please follow an authors requests in regards to how they would like constructive criticism to be given.

    2. Do not simply search for something to disagree with in an excerpt or story. Always give positive comments, never only negative. Truly constructive criticism is balanced in this regard. If you liked the way an author portrays the topic in their story, let them know! If you do disagree, please do so politely. There is certainly room for disagreement on topics in this thread, but there is no place for outright bickering.

    3. While commenting on things like spelling and grammar is normally a part of constructive criticism, the main purpose for this thread is to discuss the current topic and how it can be written into stories. Please keep those types of comments about corrections to PM.

    4. The purpose of posting excerpts and commenting on them is to further our discussion and to put it to practical use as authors. Be open to expanding your own ideas on the subject under discussion, not only trying to push your ideas on others.


    Story Recommendations

    1. If you know a story by another author that relates to the current topic, please tell everyone a little about it and provide a link. Again, one purpose of this thread is to help connect Obi-Wan fans to Obi-Wan stories.

    2. Please do not post excerpts from a story unless you have permission from the author to do so. Constructive criticism will not be allowed on such excerpts unless the author has approved it.

    3. For recommendations, all stories, EU or movieverse based, are allowed.



    Now that we have that straight, let's get to the fun part ;)


    ~spiritgurl and solojones~
     
  21. solojones

    solojones Winner, JCC Word Whiz star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    Okidokie, I happen to have an excerpt I can post for this one so I thought I'd go ahead and kind of, erm, pave the way or something. Now I'm setting a horrible example by pushing the word limit a little, but let's not be AR about it, right? [face_whistling] Just consider it the maximum. Or something. Shutting up

    Story: [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/14137878/?501]In the Shadow of the Chosen[/link] (this particular excerpt is from Episode II: A Master's Legacy- Part 1... I know, it's all very confusing to me too. I just like making things complicated, don't I? :p)

    By: Me ;)

    Setup: This story in the series directly follows TPM and deals a lot with the idea that Obi-Wan has to rid himself of the dark power he tapped into when he fought with Maul. He's already been in one fight with a fellow Jedi named Ersha where he bordered on using the Dark Side again. This excerpt is a few parts from a chapter soon after that fight.

    -----
    [blockquote]
    The shield sizzled before Obi-Wan?s face, tinting his view to the colour of fire. Deep inside of him, an enraged hatred was swelling with every passing moment. His fingers gripped the hilt of his ignited lightsabre as though he were trying to break it. On the other side of the crimson field lay Qui-Gon Jinn, breathing erratically in shock. Obi-Wan could see his Master out of the corner of his eye as he focused on the dark warrior pacing, waiting for him. Qui-Gon?s presence fuelled Obi-Wan?s hatred, which the young man focused back on the abhorrent enemy who taunted him without saying a word. The Sith was waiting for him, and Obi-Wan was more than ready to be released from his cage. He was ready to unleash the seething deluge he felt rippling through every nerve, the dark power he was drawing on in preparation for destroying his enemy. But it was not enough to destroy him. This man- this creature had taken everything from him. Unaware of the other presence standing silently behind him, Obi-Wan focused every ounce of his being on the Sith, preparing himself to utterly annihilate him.

    Then it happened: the shield snapped open and the two men clashed in a flurry of light, two wills pitting their power against one another. The dark Force presence in the room magnified with every exchanged blow. Obi-Wan fed on it, releasing the anguishing pain that had been rammed into his chest the instant Qui-Gon had been run through. It was a pain unlike anything Obi-Wan had ever experienced; it seared his mind and soul rather than his flesh. He knew no way to cure it than to release it as hatred. Obi-Wan chopped away furiously at his opponent, completely unaware of the small figure standing behind the red shield, watching his every move.

    In a desperate move, Obi-Wan threw his weight into a powerful over handed strike. His lightsabre blade met with that of the Sith, and he pushed down with all his might, gritting his teeth in anger. He locked his intense gaze with yellow eyes. A toothy smile broke out over the Sith?s face. ?Your hate,? the dark warrior hissed in a satisfied whisper, ?has made you powerful, Young Master Kenobi.?

    Master. The single word was like a tank of ice poured onto a single flame. He was a Jedi Master. Obi-Wan?s veins chilled and his grip on the hilt of his sabre loosened. Slowly, his eyes broke away from the Sith and slid to the boy behind him, tensely watching the fight through the crimson veil. His small fists were clenched anxiously at his sides. His eyes had been locked on his master the whole time. Through the Force, Obi-Wan could feel Anakin?s hatred swelling.

    No!

    The vision rushed away as Obi-Wan struggled with all his might to pull himself back to consciousness. He felt himself rocketing away from the twisted memory, and slamming back into reality as if by a hyperspace jump. His eyes flew open but all he saw was the pitch black of the room. After a moment, Obi-Wan realised his breathing was extremely heightened and tried to calm himself. It took a while, but he was soon oriented enoug
     
  22. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    ?Master,? Anakin addressed him, sounding somewhat hesitant to say whatever it was he was going to.

    ?Yes, Anakin??

    There was a pause before the boy replied, his voice catching slightly with reigned-in emotion as he spoke. ?I would have killed him, too.?


    Now *that* is some gorgeous writing. Clean, concise, *rhythmically balanced* for pity's sake. This section is a beautifully stark and terse transition from the much denser section that precedes it, constructed to give the impression of a movie's fevered soundtrack turning sparse and dark, and then finally going deadly silent over that final line.

    Unless I miss my guess, I'd say that the entire section was written around Anakin's "I would have killed him too." An excellent, cold and understated choice for a centerpiece, and an excellent build up. Nice technique too . . . setting up a whole scene--especially including a dream sequence, which is challenging enough--around a single line is some sophisticated stuff.

    If I had written this, I'd be thinking, "Heh, that's a snazzy piece of writing," and I'm an old lady. Damn, sj . . . that may be the best section I've seen from you yet. (I guess I missed it before, 'cause I kinda got bogged down in reader replies in the middle, and sort of skipped ahead a bit.) [face_blush]

    I feel kind of lame about posting this after that little gem, especially since it's raw first-draft material, but it fits the category, and it's 2:30 a.m., and my judgement's gone all to hell.

    This is actually a not-yet-posted section of my current Never Ending Fanfic Novel of Doom, "Spirit Warriors," and could be subject to alteration, substitution, return for store merchandise credit only, all sales final after 30 days.

    The situation here is that Obi-Wan has just found out that his 16-year-old apprentice has actually goaded a Sith Lord into a fight. Obi's also been up for about three days straight, and is just generally having issues.

    ****

    Obi-Wan took a step toward his Padawan, and Anakin was hard-pressed not to back away. When they were almost toe-to-toe like this it became evident that Anakin actually had to look *down* into his Master?s eyes, but he found there was no psychological advantage to this at all. Obi-Wan was far too much a Jedi to give in to fury, but Anakin was definitely picking up from him the cold, relentless feeling that Jedi experienced instead of growing furious.

    Then something in Obi-Wan?s blue eyes seemed to darken, and Anakin began to realize that he was dealing with something much less rational than a Jedi?s icy battle calm. That proper, Council-approved feeling was overlaid with other, painfully conflicted emotions, and Anakin picked up fleeting impressions of things Obi-Wan probably didn?t want him to see: the pain of an exhausted, desperate father who?d spent a night in torturous anxiety over the safety of his child; the anguish of a deeply religious man whose own son had strayed from the bright, narrow path and played Smuggler?s Roulette with his soul; the horror of a son who realized his father?s martyrdom had taught his own son little or nothing.

    Anakin found himself stumbling backward, afraid that Obi-Wan was going to pull back and slap him across the face. The thought was frightening both because it was so out of character for Obi-Wan, and because Anakin?s face was such a swollen mess at the moment. Whatever the Master Jedi saw in his Padawan?s face seemed to break the spell, and he appeared to remember himself somewhat. He still looked at a loss for how to respond, and Anakin saw annoyance cross his features as he no doubt remembered and regretted his promise not to yell at Anakin or mind-slap him half silly.

    ****

    Not much, really, I suppose, but I did write it in part because solojones is one of my longtime readers, and she's interested in seeing Obi-Wan on the edge. Another faithful reader, sdhfs, *really* doesn't like Anakin, and I figured this would make him happy too. ;)

    Since this is an absolute first draft, comment
     
  23. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    Now I'm setting a horrible example by pushing the word limit a little, but let's not be AR about it, right? Just consider it the maximum. Or something. Shutting up

    [face_shame_on_you]

    re: SOTC excerpt

    His fingers gripped the hilt of his ignited lightsabre as though he were trying to break it.

    This is nice physical description of anger showing, rather than just saying he was enraged. :)

    The Sith was waiting for him, and Obi-Wan was more than ready to be released from his cage.

    Yowza! Perfect analogy.

    Then it happened: the shield snapped open and the two men clashed in a flurry of light, two wills pitting their power against one another. The dark Force presence in the room magnified with every exchanged blow. Obi-Wan fed on it, releasing the anguishing pain that had been rammed into his chest the instant Qui-Gon had been run through. It was a pain unlike anything Obi-Wan had ever experienced; it seared his mind and soul rather than his flesh. He knew no way to cure it than to release it as hatred. Obi-Wan chopped away furiously at his opponent, completely unaware of the small figure standing behind the red shield, watching his every move.

    I can picture the fight all while this is going on so it's not necessary to really describe the fight in great detail, though you do give enough detail within the description of emotions Obi is feeling.

    re: the blood from the wounded hand, I didn't think of this before but reading it now, I'm curious. Is this a reference to stigmata here? If so, I'm wondering if you can tell us why you decided to put that in there, if not ignore me. :p

    He scrubbed for longer than was necessary, then turned his attention down to the injured hand.

    a little bit obsessive-compulsive as well, are we Obi? ;)

    ophelia

    I liked the way you give us a look into Obi-Wan's darkside via Anakin's perception. It works. :) However, I did have a few comments on some things...

    Anakin found himself stumbling backward, afraid that Obi-Wan was going to pull back and slap him across the face.

    Is this something that you (or anyone here) would really think Obi-Wan would do to his 16 year old "son" and apprentice? Or that Anakin would think he would do even if he hadn't before? I dunno that I agree with that bit... [face_not_talking]

    If you don't think Obi-Wan would, and it's just Anakin's overactive imagination then you may want to indicate that somewhere in there to make it clear that Obi-Wan had not been physically abusive in the past, and perhaps also indicate why this is Anakin's reaction (he's be hit by Watto as a child and so on some level expects it from authority figures or something like that)

    respond, and Anakin saw annoyance cross his features as he no doubt remembered and regretted his promise not to yell at Anakin or mind-slap him half silly.

    again, this indicates at least some emotional and (sort of) physical abuse on Anakin by Obi-Wan, which I just don't find very likely for his character. I think that Obi-Wan makes mistakes with Anakin because he thinks he's right and he doesn't know any better how to handle someone like Ani but I don't think he is purposely abusive in any way. That seems very unJedi to me and let's face it, Obi is about as Jedi as Jedi get [face_laugh]. Yelling, sure that's going to happen from time to time, he's only human, but physical abuse, no. I'd be interested in other's opinions but I really think that's a pretty big stretch myself.

    okay everybody, I'm going away for the weekend but will be back shortly later today, and then returing Sunday night to read more comments and excerpts. :)

    sg
     
  24. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    sg: Earlier in the story I've made it clear that Obi-Wan has never hit Anakin, and that "mind-slapping" is a Padawan learner's colorful term for what is actually a sharp psychic rebuke--basically the mental equivalent of yelling. (It's not considered abuse in their culture, although such things are always open to interpretation.)

    However, this is the third time in almost as many days that Anakin's done something unbelievably stupid, and he's never seen Obi-Wan this close to true, "I'm gonna kill you" fury before. Think "Dad up at 4 a.m. when the cops bring junior home after finding him sloshed and weaving his car through the middle of an intersection . . . again." :p

    Yes, I imagine that Watto and/or the Hutts were physically abusive to Anakin at times, however, I think Anakin had the worry that Obi-Wan was going to smack him upside the head because for a brief second Obi-Wan really felt like it.

    Obi-Wan's actual reaction is much more "I've had it with you" parental than "dark side," and seemed dismally anticlimactic for this thread, so I didn't include it. (Up until this point he's been almost Mr. Rogers patient--to the point where a couple of my readers have said, "Are you sure about that? I think he'd kill him.") :p

    The point of this section, other than showing that even Obi-Wan's patience has limits, and that Sith-Lord-baiting goes beyond them, is that Anakin has been continually trying to provoke/plead/emotionally blackmail Obi-Wan into responding to him in what he perceives as a human, emotionally engaged way, rather than a detached-compassion Jedi Master way. Here, he finally manages to do it. (As the evil author, I've been slowly breaking down Obi-Wan's Jedi barriers too, for the twisted enjoyment of seeing what that does to his character. Did I mention that I've been nominated as "Best Sith Author: Oldbie" in the Angst Awards thread?)

    It has also been made clear earlier in the story that Obi-Wan loves Anakin dearly, although their relating styles don't match terribly well. In fact, Anakin couldn't get this kind of a reaction out of him if Obi-Wan *didn't* love him--which is basically the reason why Anakin sometimes goes out of his way to drive his Master nuts.

    Anway . . . current experiment results = Do enough things to wear Mr. James-Bond-Jedi Obi-Wan down, and you find yourself faced with a very human, flawed, and at times emotional individual.

    Next experiment: When I present him with situations that require tremendous physical and moral courage, what will he do without the structure of the Jedi Order and his own, slightly OCD emotional armor to protect him from the shock? :D

    Sorry that the explanation took way longer than the actual excerpt . . . but this happens 174 pages into the story. :(

     
  25. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    Thanks for the clarification ophelia I figured after I left this morning that there was probably some buildup and circumstances in the story I wasn't seeing in the excerpt. It makes more sense to me now. :)

    sg
     
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