PT A Common Complaint I see that I don’t understand

I always found the "beyond a lightsaber" idea kind of silly. Obi-Wan talking about an elegant weapon for a more civilized age didn't bring to mind flick-of-the-wrist sorcery that could crumble armies.

 

Well I don't think anyone ever thought it of Obi-Wan, to be fair.

 

I've thought basically similarly.

However I didn't consider the compare/contrast to Palpatine angle.

 

From J.W. Rinzler's "The Making of Return of the Jedi:

REVENGE OF THE JEDI STORY CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT, JULY 13 to JULY 17, 1981—SUMMARY
Participants: George Lucas, Richard Marquand, Lawrence Kasdan, and Howard Kazanjian
Location: Park Way House
Note: Many of the ideas here are conceptual only and should not be considered as canon in the Star Wars saga.

THE STORY OF ANAKIN
Lucas: Anakin Skywalker starting hanging out with the Emperor, who at this point nobody knew was that bad, because he was an elected official.
Kasdan: Was he a Jedi?
Lucas: No, he was a politician. Richard M. Nixon was his name. He subverted the senate and finally took over and became an imperial guy and he was really evil. But he pretended to be a really nice guy. He sucked Luke’s father into the dark side.
Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?
Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.
Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?
Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it.
Marquand: They use it as a technique.
Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate. Also another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn’t go out and fight anybody.
Kasdan: A Jedi Master is a Jedi isn’t he?
Lucas: Well, he is a teacher, not a real Jedi. Understand that?
Kasdan: I understand what you’re saying, but I can’t believe it; I am in shock.
Lucas: It’s true, absolutely true, not that it makes any difference to the story.
Kasdan: You mean he wouldn’t be any good in a fight?
Lucas: Not with Darth Vader he wouldn’t.
Kasdan: I accept it, but I don’t like it.

So, during the time period the OT was made Lucas himself did not intend for Yoda to fight anybody with a lightsaber or otherwise. Palpatine's line about a lightsaber being a Jedi's weapon hints at the same being true for Palpatine. A lot of fans expected Palpatine and Yoda to be beyond the lightsaber. It's not just, that it is hinted at in the movies. It's how Lucas saw these characters at some point. The Jedi Knights were the actual knights with swords doing the fighting. The Jedi Master was a guru, who studied the Force, and did not go around fighting people. By the time the PT came around, specifically AOTC Lucas changed his mind. Personally I feel the lightsabers became a bit too gimmicky and overused in the PT, and I generally like Lucas' original view on Yoda fighting a bit better than what was seen in the PT. I also felt the lightsaber fights involving Yoda and Palpatine were sometimes less than convincing. However, it's not too big of an issue for me, and Yoda fighting Palpatine is one of my favourite fights in the PT, especially the symolism of the moment the chair rises into the senate chamber.

 

Even in/by OT Yoda seems not to be for disarmament being good generally, though he didn't have much time there is the strong, final "Do NOT Underestimate the Powers of the Emperor."

 

You know what? I kind of agree with this. What I like about the OT and ST is that they treat the lightsaber with an almost mythical reverence.

In Episode 2, Obi-Wan tells Anakin, "This weapon is your life." Yet this is really just the set up for a punch line in the droid factory, "Not again. Obi-Wan's gonna kill me." It's not that bad, but here is what really rubs me the wrong way:

In the arena battle... A Jedi just casually tosses Anakin and Obi-Wan a couple of lightsabers. Like, do Jedi carry spares? Were these new/used? Taken from dead Jedi? I understand that (story wise) you cannot have Obi-Wan and Anakin sans sabers in the final battle, but this really cheapens what a lightsaber is/represents.

Lastly, it bugs me that after losing his lightsaber, whilst battling Darth Maul in Episode 1, Obi-Wan simply has an exact replacement in Episode 2. It would have been cool to see him continue to use Qui-Gon's saber in Episode 2.

 

I just assume that they either brought some extra lightsabers from the temple specifically because Obi-Wan and Anakin would probably need them or happened to be among those dual wielding Jedi and gave them one each. The latter seems more likely now that I think about it.
It's never been a problem for me and I don't see why it would be.

I did expect to see Obi-Wan using Qui-Gon's lightsaber in AOTC, though. It would've been nice. I guess a blue lightsaber just fit the look of the movie better - and it does make sense that he'd make a new one.
I really would've liked to see him with that green one, though.

 

That doesn't really change anything. Lucas may have had a totally different idea in mind, but what's presented in the movies, I think is where the fans viewing of it is where fans came to their perceptions, I think more likely.

A lightsaber is the weapon of a jedi, so I think it makes sense it'd be used a lot in a world where several of the characters are jedi and the villains are those trained in the jedi arts and such. Why else would jedi have them?

 

The thing is that there are no other Jedi in the OT and ST. Luke is given a second hand Lightsaber in ANH, which Finn and Rey use. It only seems to have a relevance because of that. In an era of ten thousand Jedi, it's a whole different story.

 

A lot of fans inferred similar ideas to the ones had by Lucas from the OT. For one Obi-Wan literally states a lightsaber is the weapon of a Jedi Knight, and thus a weapon used by someone with a military function, a warrior trained for combat. In ESB the concept of a Jedi Master is introduced, who expresses his disdain for the idea that Yoda is this great warrior. It's not hard to see why fans assumed given Yoda's attitude, power level and wisdom, he would not bother with lightsabers. Add to this that Yoda's antithesis on the dark side dismissively calls Luke's lightsaber a Jedi's weapon, later showing Luke exactly why he doesn't need a lightsaber.

 

It's an assumption that he's referring to military function. A jedi is trained for combat.

Yoda never expresses disdain for being a great warrior. He says wars make not one great. It's an interpretation. The idea of wars making not one great doesn't negate the idea that one would fight.

 

It's not an assumption, because a knight is a military function (amongst other things). Add to this that 1) Leia refers to Obi-Wan as General Kenobi 2) Luke asks: "You fought in the Clone Wars?", to which Obi-Wan replies "Yes, I was a Jedi Knight the same as your father.", reinforcing the link between Jedi Knights and war. It is therefore logical to infer, that the Jedi Knights had some sort of military function in the Old Republic. It also makes Luke believe Jedi are first and foremost warriors. Luke's expectations are subverted when he finds out, that the Jedi Master he is looking for is anything, but he warrior. Yoda's physical stature makes him a very unlikely opponent in a lightsaber battle, which is exactly as Lucas wanted it to be, as his own words in 1981 make clear.

 

Oh come on. The term knight has been used in other contexts that doesn't automatically equate to being military. In current day people are knighted. Some may argue the term knight is used to define them as honorable warriors. Like I said, it's an assumption what is meant is to establish them as military.

 

It is not, because it is completely obvious from ANH, that Obi-Wan was fighting in a war as a general together with Luke's father and it is he who makes the direct link between that war and his being a Jedi Knight. Add to this the fantasy setting and the fact that Jedi Knights use swords as their primary weapon, which makes it even more clear, that the Jedi Knights are much more like Arthurian knights than ceremonial knights with normal day jobs.

With regards to Yoda how was that puppet ever going to fight the likes of Darth Vader with a lightsaber? ESB was made over a decade before CGI became a thing, and Lucas could make Yoda do things he never imagined at the time and more importantly intended Yoda to do at the time. Yoda's very design precluded him from being in a conventional fight.

 

I like the idea that Yoda and Sidious are beyond sabers. With Yoda, my bigger problem is his technique. He uses an aggressive and acrobatic lightsaber form when playing more defensive would make more sense.
Sidious seems to mock sabers in ROTJ, so that's why I'm not the fondest of him using a saber. ROTS is not the first time we see him using a saber, though. The Dark Empire storyline has him using Jedi trophy lightsabers in his clone body. And funny enough, he was supposed to take Anakin's saber in the duel with Mace. There's footage of earlier versions of that in a quick online search and you see Anakin's hilt in most frames in the film.

 

By your perception, that's obvious. But it doesn't automatically equal the intention of it or the perception of it as taken by others.

?

 

In the case of Jedi Knights I don't see how it's a matter of perception as the facts are stated in the movie: they are called Jedi Knights, they fought in the clone wars and held military ranks like General, and they use a sword as a primary weapon like Medieval knights. There's nothing in in Obi-Wan's description that hints at a ceremonial role and plenty of statements that places them in a military situation and with a military rank.

With regards to Yoda Lucas made his intentions clear to Lawrence Kasdan as can be read in Rinzler's books:

Lucas: Also another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn’t go out and fight anybody.
Kasdan: A Jedi Master is a Jedi isn’t he?
Lucas: Well, he is a teacher, not a real Jedi. Understand that?
Kasdan: I understand what you’re saying, but I can’t believe it; I am in shock.
Lucas: It’s true, absolutely true, not that it makes any difference to the story.
Kasdan: You mean he wouldn’t be any good in a fight?
Lucas: Not with Darth Vader he wouldn’t.

 

To that point, in-universe, the Sith had been extinct for a thousand years, so it makes sense that to the galaxy at large, Force-user with laser sword=Jedi. That the Sith ever used lightsabers or had similar (or overlapping) Force powers was probably only a historical curiosity to laypeople at the time of the movies.

In the Prequels, the Jedi were cozy with the Republic and the Sith were "extinct". In the OT, to the average denizen of GFFA, the Jedi were extinct too (or were close to it and deserved to be on account of **treason**) and (aside from Vader and the Inquistors) it's not yet clear in canon what the average Imperial knew about the Sith or whether they knew Palpatine was a Sith and the Sith were really in control of the Empire. The higher-ups did... kind of. But even Imperial brass (cf. the board scene in ANH) thought Vader was a mysterious fanatic and the last of his kind. Even if they recognized he was a Sith in the vein of the Old Republic, even their frame of reference would have been "Jedi".

 

What Yoda says does not mean that he has disdain for Jedi who served as the guardians of peace and justice. Remember that he still trained Luke to use his Lightsaber, just as he did Obi-Wan.



The sequence was cut, but it shows Yoda having no disdain.

 

The disdain was for the concept of a "great warrior". From Yoda's perspective there's nothing great about the concept and reality of war and seeking fortune and glory by showing off your prowess in battle. Therefore the term "great warrior" is a contradiction in terms.

 

Which I don't dispute. Though we didn't know in the day what exactly the Jedi were. Being a Knight and a General aren’t the same thing. Obi-Wan never identified himself by a military rank in the fourth draft and in the final film. He refers to himself and Anakin as a Jedi Knight. Leia is the only one to do so. Even Tarkin doesn't. It's thin, but a distinction. There was wiggle room to say that in Yoda’s younger years, the Jedi weren't always military.

 

Speaking of wiggle room, at some point you have to say if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Obi-Wan does refer to the Jedi Knights as guardians of peace and justice, a function they fulfilled for over a thousand generations. It thus seems logical to conclude these weaponized knights served in the war in that capacity. They were obviously no ordinary soldiers, but they do have a lot in common with Arthurian Knights of the Round Table, an order dedicated to ensuring the peace of King Arthur's kingdom.

 

Personally, I like the variation. It gives the feeling that they're both going all out, using every way possible in an effort to defeat the other. The lightsaber portion was like the warmup part of the fight, and it gradually builds up in intensity.

I think it's because of the nature of Yoda's force technique. Yoda's glowball thing (btw do we have a name for it? It's annoying trying describe the turquoise-colored glow thing every time) is not an aggressive attack that can be unleashed on its own like force lightning, but rather a retaliatory technique that can push back the opponent's attack. Dooku's force lightning is relatively weak, so even when Yoda pushes it right back at him, it's not that dangerous. It makes sense that they then switch to a lightsaber fight, which is more intense than pushing around Dooku-level force lightning. Sidious's force lightning is a different story... but I guess I'll stop here before this thread transforms into another Sidious vs Yoda or Sidious vs Mace thread.

 

In times of war, sure. But in times of peace, the waters were muddy thirty years ago. In the first draft of ANH, it was very unclear about the Jedi Bendu before the Holy War of 06. In the second draft, it did seem as if they became soldiers when everything went to hell. The third draft did portray them as a standing army within the larger military force, with the Counter Wars. Luke even indicated that when talking to Ben about his autobiography. The fourth draft was very vague.

 

Holy War of ‘06 sounds like some heated prequel discourse