PT A Common Complaint I see that I don’t understand

It's pretty clear that Lucas is making a distinction between the role of Yoda and the role of a common Jedi, specially in the context of the story of the movies, which is what's being discussed there. And even the PT corroborates that, by establishing Yoda's role as a teacher and a guide. He's not out there on missions or fighting.

But that doesn't mean that he can't go on missions or that he can't fight. In extraordinary circumstances, or if the situation calls for it, he will (again, as seen in the PT too).

No, George never saw any of those characters as being beyond the use of lightsabers. That's simply baseless fan speculation that is not supported anywhere.

 

That's just plain wrong.

REVENGE OF THE JEDI STORY CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT, JULY 13 to JULY 17, 1981—SUMMARY
Participants: George Lucas, Richard Marquand, Lawrence Kasdan, and Howard Kazanjian
Location: Park Way House

Lucas: Another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn’t go out and fight anybody.
Kasdan: A Jedi Master is a Jedi isn’t he?
Lucas: Well, he is a teacher, not a real Jedi. Understand that?
Kasdan: I understand what you’re saying, but I can’t believe it; I am in shock.
Lucas: It’s true, absolutely true, not that it makes any difference to the story.
Kasdan: You mean he wouldn’t be any good in a fight?
Lucas: Not with Darth Vader he wouldn’t.
Kasdan: I accept it, but I don’t like it.

Lucas literally states: he doesn’t go out and fight anybody, and he confirms, that Yoda would not be good in a fight. I don't know how much more clearly you want it. He is obviously makes a clear distinction between a Jedi and a teacher not only in their function, but also in their ability. They are presented as two completely different set of skills. A teacher like Yoda simply does not have the ability to fight someone who is skilled in the art of combat like Darth Vader, or Obi-Wan or any other Jedi Knight. It's not that he is a Jedi like other Jedi, who has become so proficient, that he is now a teacher, meaning he is a Jedi who is also a teacher, which was Kasdan's expectation. He is not a real Jedi full stop per Lucas his own words. He is a Jedi hopeful, whos skills and abilities set him on a path to becoming a teacher and a guru, while others are set on a path to becoming what Lucas calls real Jedi. The ones that go out and fight, and thus have a need for carrying a Jedi's weapon, the light saber.

 

No, it isn't.

That doesn't exclude the fact that he's a great warrior and strong in the Force.

Incorrect, George Lucas's words don't corroborate any of that. He's a Jedi Master. You're taking "real Jedi" as something that the context of the conversation they are having is not conveying at all.

No, that's your speculation, not something Lucas is saying at all. Yoda is a Jedi Master. He's one of those who turn actual hopefuls into actual Jedi. So yes, he's a Jedi (which includes being a great warrior, which is what Luke calls him and he doesn't deny). And for the purposes of the overall story, he's not the type that goes out there and fight (which is Luke's job, and why his training is important). He's the type that instructs and guides others.

Besides, and to bring it back to the actual topic at hand, nowhere in that story conference transcript (or in any other for that matter) is the idea that Yoda and the Emperor didn't have lightsabers, or didn't need them, or that they grew beyond the use of a lightsaber. That's a baseless fan assumption not supported anywhere. Neither in BTS material and definitely not in any of the movies.

 

You're conveniently ignoring part of Lucas' statements. He is not a great warrior, since Lucas literally states he would not be good in a fight with Darth Vader. If you ignore this statement, you might argue Yoda is a Jedi like other Jedi, a great warrior, who now teaches Jedi, but could take up the mantle of warrior again, if the need arises, and would thus be a worthy adversary for any other powerful Jedi or Sith. However, Kasdan incredulously asks Lucas, if Yoda would not be good in a fight? And Lucas confirms this by stating he would not be when faced with a real warrior and powerful Jedi like Darth Vader.

When Lucas speaks of a real Jedi, he is specifically referring to those individuals, that go out to fight, and have the ability to face other powerful Jedi. Lucas makes clear Yoda and teachers in general are not in that category. They are an entity onto themselves. The terms Jedi and Jedi Master are thus mutually exclusive. It also implies at that time being strong in the Force did not automatically make you a great warrior.

To summarize: Yoda does not go out and fight anybody (exibit A) AND he would not be good in a fight (exibit B). Taken together these statements do not represent a description of a great warrior.

 

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm simply taking the big picture and the context of the conversation into account, and you aren't.

He's saying that in the context of the OT, particularly ROTJ, Yoda would not be good in a fight with Vader. Yoda was at the end of his life, old and weak, ready to join the Force. Obi-Wan was in the same position too back in ANH. That doesn't mean they were not proper Jedi, or great warriors. Or unable to do great feats, although sporadically, in their old age.

Kasdan is asking from a perspective of physical power, and Lucas is answering with the actual story in mind while giving insight into the character's role.

And there you are again extrapolating something that he never stated or inferred.

 

No, that's not the way the conversation is set up.

Lucas: Another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn’t go out and fight anybody.
Kasdan: A Jedi Master is a Jedi isn’t he?
Lucas: Well, he is a teacher, not a real Jedi. Understand that?

Lucas himself brings up the misconception, that Yoda the guru/teacher should not be conflated with a Jedi who teaches, and a guru/teacher does not go out and fight anybody. Kasdan then confused asks the more general question whether a Jedi Master is a Jedi? In other words are Jedi Masters not just Jedi who teach other Jedi? Lucas says no, Jedi Masters are teachers, not real Jedi.

No, Kasdan asks from the perspective of his earlier general question, that Jedi Masters are Jedi who teach? Following Lucas' answer that teachers are not real Jedi, Kasdan incredulously asks whether Yoda (and teachers in general) would thus not be good in a fight. The question is a direct response to Lucas' statements, that teachers are not real Jedi, and don't fight. Yoda's physicality and age, which have nothing to do with him being a guru/teacher, do not come into it at all. They are never mentioned in the conversation. It's just projection on your part. Lucas even makes it explicitely clear in the conversation, that the discussion has zero bearing on the story. He does not have the actual story in mind, as you claim:

Lucas: It’s true, absolutely true, not that it makes any difference to the story.

It is literally stated by Lucas, that gurus/teachers are not real Jedi in response to Kasdan's question.

Paraphrasing Lucas and Kasdan: "Lawrence? Yes, George. Did you know some people believe Yoda is a real Jedi? Not true, he's a Jedi Master, meaning a guru or teacher. Jedi Masters are just Jedi who teach other Jedi, right George? No Lawrence, Jedi Masters are not real Jedi. They are separate from real Jedi. They are just teachers, and as teachers they don't go out to fight anybody. What George, despite their strong connection to the Force, they wouldn't be good in a fight? You're joking, right? No Lawrence, I'm dead serious. They wouldn't be good in a fight with a real Jedi like Darth Vader. I hear you George, but I don't like it. It's true Lawrence, that is, until I will change my mind almost two decades from now."

 

Not quite. He doesn't say a Jedi Master doesn't fight, just that Yoda didn't. Lucas didn't say that Yoda trained every Jedi. Just a lot and by Obi-Wan's admission, thought that he could. So at the time there were some Jedi who were Masters and Knights, but then you had Yoda.

 

He says Yoda is like a guru. He doesn't fight anybody. The not fighting is related to his being a guru, not related to him personally. Kasdan also follows this interpretation of Lucas' words, as he asks Lucas to clarify, that Jedi Masters or gurus are also Jedi, who he knows do fight other (former) Jedi. This is denied by Lucas. This leads Kasdan to ask whether that means Yoda (or gurus in general given the context of the question) would not be good in a fight? Leading to Lucas' final statement, that he would not be against the likes of Darth Vader.

 

I don't dispute that. Yoda just trained them. I just thought it was obvious what I said supported you. But, as I earlier noted, Lucas only changed his mind because of the advancements in CGI effects. Brackett had Yoda using a Lightsaber, but a stop motion fight just wasn't what he wanted. So he created an excuse. Then he was told it was possible and so he changed his mind. I wager a lot of things would have been different if he had the resources from the PT era during the OT era.

 

People got attached to the idea of Yoda not using a lightsaber in the OT, being a wiser spiritual being above fighting in the way that Luke does.

There’s nothing in the OT saying that Yoda, as a Jedi, never fought, but I read in the original discussion meeting for ROTJ that George originally thought of Jedi Masters such as Yoda as gurus rather than active fighters the way Jedi Knights are. @DrDre said the same thing. Obviously the concept of Jedi Masters changed from then to the PT’s production era, but nothing in the films themselves exclude the idea that Yoda has ever been in combat. He does prioritize the spiritual, scholarly side of the Jedi way when he can help it, but Yoda cannot always escape violence given the context he lived in.

As for Sidious, he implies that he does not use a lightsaber in ROTJ, commenting on Luke’s weapon. From that context alone, one might assume that the only reason Vader, a non-Jedi, uses a lightsaber is because he was a former Jedi- but he hadn’t been a Jedi for years by then.
The Sith were only discussed in supplementary material until 1999, and it wasn’t established how they fought (to my knowledge). I don’t recall whether the pre-prequel EU Sith such as Naga Sadow or Exar Kun used lightsabers (disregarding post 90s material featuring them) , but Palpatine’s own affiliation outside the Empire was intentionally left a mystery.

I think that his rhetoric was easily explained as intended to taunt Luke, without necessarily indicating that ONLY Jedi used lightsabers.

 

Nothing Palpatine said in ROTJ suggests that he never used a Lightsaber. That is an assumption that was unfounded and head canon. The fact he even used one in the EU prior to ROTS, dispelled that notion.

 

this page in a nutshell:


someone: you're wrong

someone else is given factual information and direct quotes from an actual sourced conversation

the response: you are right, i am mistaken LALALALALALA

 

Or someone thinks that conversation has no meaning to the canon of the series as it was never developed on screen and minds of creatives change over time.

 

that's not what was said

the words "never" and "baseless" were used, but continue with your selective reading.

 

I did misread it and I apologize for my assumptions on what you said/may have meant by what you were saying. However, I think what the point of my post was still applies. I'm not sure if your post here negates what I said or not. Your post made a statement about this page in a nutshell. The point, though you're right, it wasn't accurately conveyed as a response to your post due to my misreading of the post, was that your statement isn't necessarily applicable to the situation with the posts at hand. The post just before yours was pointing out the simple fact that the movie canon never confirms whether he did or didn't use a lightsaber, so the "lalala" doesn't apply in regards to this collective page.

 

Could still be interpreted, albeit a stretch, that he doesn't fight people often and that he wouldn't be good against Vader, ie against the worst and most dangerous kind of opponent. It does feel a bigger stretch, at least really unusual, that a Jedi Master wouldn't be a former, promoted, Jedi Knight, that despite the title seeming higher and related to promotion he then seemed to be thinking there was some different kind of training tract. That does go with a lot of fans seemed to believe pre-prequels, that there were very few Jedi (maybe just 1-6 masters, 20-30 knights (and Vader was able to directly kill all of them) and still able to have huge impact).

Yes the I thought I could train as well line also suggests there were few Jedi and there being a new one added, aside from being taught by Yoda, really unusual, that is very slightly included in TPM end, otherwise pretty against the structure of the Jedi in the prequels.

 

Well one could think that Yoda and other Masters were more focused on training the Jedi to be in the Force, how to use it, control and all that. And there were other teachers that focused on martial skills, like fighting, tactics.
So it was not a given that all Jedi Masters must be former Jedi Knights. Instead they knew all about the Force and how it worked but did not really deal with fighting skills. That was up to Sword-Masters or some such.

Not sure that one could figure that there were few Jedi just from this.
What Obi-Wan says is that he met Anakin and was amazed how strong the Force was with him and he took it upon himself to train Anakin.
That could mean that he met Anakin, saw how strong the Force was with him and decided to train him. Thinking he could do it just as well as Yoda.

It would make sense that Obi-Wan had trained others before and done it well. So he could think that he was able to do this. If he had never trained anyone before, then this thinking is more questionable and makes Obi-Wan seem very arrogant. That he could do something he had never done before just as well as someone that has done it for centuries.
It is still quite arrogant if Obi-Wan had trained others before but not as arrogant.

Lastly, given that neither Vader nor Palpatine ever mentions Yoda.
If Yoda trained most if not all Jedi, Anakin would have met/heard about him.
So why is he never brought up?

Based on the OT, either Yoda faked his death and neither Vader nor Palpatine thought about that possibility.
Another option is that Yoda only trained few people. That he was a guru and had lived on Dagobah for a long time, long before Obi-Wan and Anakin. And he only took students rarely. Obi-Wan was one such student. Maybe Obi-Wan was reckless and a trouble maker and the other Masters rejected him and so Yoda was the only one willing to take him in.
That could explain why Vader/Palpatine never met him.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

The ROTJ novelization posits the Vader and Palpatine never knew about Yoda, suggesting that only certain Jedi knew of him. This is probably why the Jedi from the TOTJ series were largely trained in a similar manner to Luke's training under Yoda. This is especially true in the first batch of stories, before the introduction of the Jedi Council and Ossus.

As to Obi-Wan, the script and book had him tell Luke that his pride in his ability to train Anakin had dire consequences. Thus making him arrogant like the PT Jedi.

 

“So tell me, young Skywalker—who continued your training?”
That smile, again, like a knife. Luke held silent, struggling to regain his composure.
The Emperor tapped his fingers on the arm of the throne, recalling. “There was one called … Yoda. An aged Master Jedi … Ah, I see by your countenance I have hit a chord, a resonant chord indeed. Yoda, then.”
Luke flashed with anger at himself, now, to have revealed so much, unwillingly, unwittingly. Anger and self-doubt. He strove to calm himself - to see all, to show nothing; only to be.
"This Yoda," the Emperor mused. "Lives he still?"
Luke focused on the emptiness of space beyond window behind the Emperor's chair. The deep void, where nothing was. Nothing. He filled his mind with this black nothing. Opaque, save for the occasional flickering of starlight that filtered through the ether.
"Ah," cried Emperor Palpatine. "He lives not. Very good, young Skywalker, you almost hid this from me. But you could not. And you cannot. Your deepest flickerings are to me apparent. Your nakedest soul. That is my first lesson to you."

 

Is... Palpatine mockingly speaking like Yoda here?

 

Well, I think the PT and TCW to a degree reduced Jediism to a group of warrior monks with swords, whereas the Jedi Knights previously could be seen as the armed branch of a larger Jedi religion, that involved many different branches involving different skills. The fact that Jedi Knights were described by Obi-Wan as being the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic, does not have to imply all Jedi had that same function. Obviously, the OT framed the Jedi in terms of the fight against Vader and the Emperor, and Luke's pivitol role in that fight, but it seems rather reductive to view Jediism as purely through the prism of laserswords and battles of good versus evil. Hence, I personally am not a fan of Yoda being a guru automatically meaning he's the top dog, when it comes to fighting. As if being a great warrior is somehow a prerequisite to being a great Jedi. I much prefer the idea, that some Jedi abhore violence, and don't see their own role as having to fight anybody, and recognise that they also might not have the particular skill set to be a great warrior or general even if they wanted to be that. Hence, the idea that a subset of Jedi are trained specifically for combat situations seems more logical to me in this context.

 

Considering at that point he never knew him, no. I think that it was either taken from an earlier draft, or was an attempt by Kahn to have Palpatine talk that way as a connection with Yoda. Meaning that masters of the Force speak that way.

 

It seems pretty clear to me from that scene that the ROTJ novelization does not say the Emperor "never knew about Yoda" though.

 

pretty weird way to address someone you know though

"this Iron Lord, he still posts?"


"this JC boards, they're a star wars forum?"