main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT A Correlation Between Rogue One and Star Wars

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Jim Smith, May 26, 2018.

  1. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Are you okay?
     
  2. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    I liked so much about Rogue One that it's a shame to bring up the problems but to me there were many. Rogue One treated stormtroopers like buffoons. Their armor was portrayed as useless even against melee weapons, and they were often incompetent. Contrary to casual fan humor and ignorant tropes, there is nothing in the original trilogy to suggest that stormtroopers were incompetent or couldn't hit their targets or whatever. I'm not saying this was ALWAYS the case in Rogue One, but there were too many scenes where stormtroopers were easily fooled or beaten.

    Count me out of the club that loved Vader's personal attack on the rebel troops. It's fan service, alright, and it doesn't make sense with the original film. How does that conversation even work when Vader clearly chased the plans down a hallway and personally witnessed the rebels getting onboard Leia's ship and flying away? Also how can she claim to be on a diplomatic mission to his face when both of them were obviously at the actual battle?

    What is this with jumping to lightspeed before you exit the atmosphere? It's like something out of the sequel trilogy I tell you.

    Last but not least, it might be fun to see Walrus Man and Pig Face on Jedha but that is a ridiculous coincidence that again works only as fan service. The odds of them being there are small, but then they happened to leave the planet right then? And go to Mos Eisley on Tatooine? Why? If it had anything to do with anything, other than nostalgia I might say the Force. But no. Dumb luck.

    Did I mention I liked Rogue One? I did, despite all of its weaknesses.
     
  3. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    I can fee ee eel your doubt. It gives you fo cus. Makes you strong ga.
     
    cratylus likes this.
  4. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    I don't agree. "Solo" and the Prequel movies are just as much SW films to me as "Rogue One" and the OT. And I've seen all of the movies since the beginnnig.
     
    themoth likes this.
  5. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    The prequels have a different type of feel but that feel is absolutely still Star Wars. Solo and Rogue One captured the feel of the classic trilogy very well, though. As good as humanly possible for films made in modern times and not the late 70s.
     
    Kenneth Morgan and Iron_lord like this.
  6. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    I absolutely love Rogue One and while I can name things I consider a flaw with the movie I completely do not understand the people who claim the characters being boring is some sort of obvious or objective fact. I personally love all the characters in Rogue One and their deaths get me every time. They all have pretty well defined traits and motivations so even if they don’t resonate with you I genuinely don’t get what it is that people claim is missing.
     
    Sarge likes this.
  7. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Because I couldn't discern most of these "well-defined traits and motivations" when watching the film, and I don't consider myself a lazy or unintelligent film viewer.
     
  8. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    I like Rogue One a lot. It's easily the best of the Disney movies (hardly difficult) but as much as I like it the seams between the two divergent visions of the film from Gareth Edwards original Star Wars "war" movie to the version that Disney overhauled show.

    It still kinda works but the overhaul of the characters and parts of the story creates a lot of inconsistency which I personally am forgiving of but others aren't.

    It still also has a basic underlying problem in that they felt they need to "explain" a "plot hole" that isn't one at all in ANH. Namely that the Death Star needed some sabotage. This is like saying that there has to be another reason for David to beat Goliath than:

    David hurls a stone from his sling and hits Goliath in the center of his forehead, Goliath falls on his face to the ground, and David cuts off his head.

    What R1 in essence is saying that Goliath must have had some cranial surgery from a "Galen Erso" surgeon who created a weak spot in the center of his forehead then let David know about it.

    All that was necessary was for Erso to tell them where the plans were so they could find some weakness.

    Here are a couple of good longer features on Rogue One:



    Ponstory Games is rather savage and I don't agree with all his points but he makes a lot of good ones:



    Everything from George simply IS Star Wars. Of the 5 Disney movies at least R1 and Solo kind of feel like they fit albeit in an imperfect and sidestep sort of way.

    R1 and ANH don't really work together that well. It's actually better as a follow-on from ROTS.

    Sidious should have been included in at least one scene with Vader and Tarkin.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
    Hernalt and The_Phantom_Calamari like this.
  9. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I actually think TFA is a more effective movie than Rogue One, and my bias against J.J. Abrams and everything he represents cannot be overstated. So I'm at a complete loss for Rogue One's enduring popularity even among those who disdain Disney Wars. It's just a clunky movie with bland characters that's also pretty boring for long stretches. It leans quite heavily on nostalgia, established iconography, and familiar action scenarios. By the end of it, not much has been said or accomplished.

    Just kind of baffling to me.

    e: Though I gotta say, I just tried to watch that Ponstory review and it seem to be a pretty egregious example of the MauLer style of unfairly nitpicking movies to death while failing to do any actual, substantive film criticism.

    Like in the beginning he seems to think it was a mistake that Cassian is talking about his gloves despite not wearing any. That's...an obvious joke. The joke is that he isn't wearing any gloves. How could someone who considers himself competent enough at film analysis to make YouTube videos about it not realize something so blindingly obvious? I'm sorry, but I have to be fair here. I only watched two minutes of that video and it's already infinitely worse than Rogue One could ever hope to be.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
    Qui-Riv-Brid likes this.
  10. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    We'll have to disagree on that one. Even on it's own regardless of horrors to come I make it far inferior on simply a basic character basis. Jyn is what Rey should have been other character types in R1 being more what TFA should have used. R1 is superior in every way as a Star Wars movie from characters, situations, design and movement.

    I'd argue it does it all better in every respect than TFA.

    The Ponstory is far more erratic but he does bring up a lot of good poinst overall though some odd ones that probably come out of watching it only once and reacting. He does do a lot of the intricate but somewhat misplaced nitpicking

    Again I'll have to disagree on MauLer which is full of very substantive film criticism.

    Fair point but in follow-up to that he asks why Andor even shot the Stormtroopers in the first place. It's a bad case of action for action's sake as opposed to being presented as making any sense. It'd be like Obi-Wan just attacking Dr. Evazan and Ponda Baba right off without trying something else first.

    Which ties to my earlier point as all that jumping around came from the reshoots while how they ever found Jyn was excised from the movie. Once they made Saw a lunatic and cut Jyn being a rebel solider out his entire part had to be reshot which lead to a lot of confusions in the story.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  11. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    Jyn- Lost her parents to the Empire at a young age, raised as a soldier by Saw’s rebels before in her eyes being abandoned by them. She became jaded and associates resisting the Empire with suffering. At first she just wants out of everything but her long-lost father’s message gives her renewed purpose. If the Death Star is unleashed than all the pain her family suffered in the name of preventing its creation would be in vain and their tormentors would not only win but have used them to gain more power to inflict suffering on others.

    Bohdi- just a simple man trying to make his way in the universe by flying cargo shuttles for the government. He feels guilty about his role in creating a weapon meant to kill billions and oppress the galaxy. Galen emboldens him to act on his conscience and help him sabotage the project instead of just putting his head in the sand and staying out of trouble. He’s in way over his head but he feels obligated to try as long as there’s a still chance the Death Star can be stopped. He grows in confidence as the journey goes on and he starts to believe he really can make a difference. To me his death is the saddest because of the joy he feels when he finally gets ahold of the Rebel Fleet. He can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel, suddenly success seems like a real possibility and not just a desperate hope. “This one’s for you Galen” he says like a weights been lifted off his shoulders. And then a grenade rolls into the ship and he realizes to achieve this victory he will be paying the same price Galen did.

    Cassian- Completely dedicated his life to the cause of freedom due to his own shattered childhood. As a field agent the realities of war force him to make tough calls on the spot. He sacrifices the informant when necessary but disobeys the order to kill Galen because he feels he has a better understanding of the situation than the commanding officer can get from Yavin IV and is willing to take responsibility for the consequences. When the politics of the Council prevent the Rebels from supporting Jyn he organizes his own attack even though it’s practically suicide because he believes it’s the right thing to do and he couldn’t live with the people he killed in the name of the cause of his priorities suddenly changed when it was his own life at stake.

    Baze and Chirrut- Studied the ways of the Force at the Jedi Temple on Jedha until the Purge happened and they suddenly found themselves societal outcasts. They could only watch helplessly as their temple was desecrated and their masters were presumably killed. Chirrut’s faith never wavers much to the chagrin of the disillusioned Baze who believes that if the Force was really more than simple tricks and nonsense than it should have been able to protect its followers. It’s quite possible he has witnessed direct evidence that supports hokey religions and ancient weapons aren’t a match for a good blaster at your side. Chirrut trusts the Force to guide his footsteps and Baze feels obligated to watch over him because trusting the Force is for fools and a good way to get yourself killed. They already see the Empire as evil for obvious reasons but when the Death Star vaporizes their home they have a personal investment in seeing it destroyed. Chirrut’s faith is ultimately rewarded on his walk to the switch and even though it’s true that he gets killed as a result he is undeterred because he understands that flesh is temporary but the Force is forever. His actions inspire Baze to regain his lost faith in the end.
     
    Chancellor Yoda and Sarge like this.
  12. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I don't think any of these things were clearly or effectively portrayed. I was paying very close attention, and yet I found myself hopelessly disconnected emotionally from the characters and their struggles. In the case of Jyn, Cassian, and to a lesser extent Bodhi, I at least understood what the intention was, but the execution was perfunctory, and underwhelming to say the least. In the case of Baze and Chirrut, I found I couldn't even get a firm grasp on what their purpose was supposed to be--especially Baze, who I am constantly rediscovering in these discussions was in fact a character in the movie.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  13. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    I can’t speak to whether you were sufficiently whelmed or not but I didn’t just pull all of that out of thin air so the movie must have conveyed it to me somehow. I think it’s fair to say Jyn and Cassian get more focus than the rest of the group but at the end of the day they all represent 5 “ordinary” people from different backgrounds thrust together by fate on a quest to protect the greater good even at the expense of their own life.

    (For whatever it’s worth: as presented I interpret Jyn and Cassian’s argument after Eadu as Cassian being objectively right and Jyn being objectively wrong, but I acknowledge there’s a pretty good chance that wasn’t the filmmakers intentions. So that may be a possible example of the kind of disconnect you’re referring to)
     
    Chancellor Yoda and Sarge like this.
  14. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    They're not explaining a plot hole. In ANH, Leia comments that she hopes a weakness can be found. R1 is merely showing what the weakness is the Rebels are hoping to find.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
    Sarge likes this.