main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

Lit A question on Karen Traviss and her work(s)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Pyrotek, Nov 28, 2011.

  1. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Thanks Havac, you nearly woke my roommates. I was only barely able to suppress the giant guffaw into some sort of snort-chuckle-giggle-snort sound.
     
  2. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Sorry, missed that.

    Forget I typed that. I'd delete it if I could.
     
  3. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2003
    BOOM! -John Madden approves of this post, Hav. Classic sidebuster.=D=
     
  4. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    =D=

    I just received the strangest look from my workmates ever.

    Cheers, Hav, you made my day. [face_laugh]
     
  5. marmkid

    marmkid Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2001
    This is what has always bothered me about stances like the one Traviss seems to take, as well as others who write about random force sects like the Fallanassi, who remain neutral at all costs and put down the Jedi because they are always involved.

    Sure, the Jedi could remain neutral and have taken the hard line stance that using the clones was immoral and wrong. But at that point, they then would just concede the galaxy to Dooku and Sidious as they were too few in number to oppose their army. So this moral high ground of saying the Jedi should have refused comes with the result that the galaxy has been taken over by the Sith. Is that worth it?

    The Jedi were outsmarted and outmaneuvered by Palpatine, they weren?t all of a sudden these immoral murderers they are sometimes made out to be. The Fallanassi talk down to Luke all the time saying how people get killed around him, yet their solution is to just let it all happen and not fight back, and that is supposed to somehow be superior?
     
    Lady_Misty likes this.
  6. Riven_JTAC

    Riven_JTAC Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2011
    The narrative describing Skirata as a thug was just a mail-in by Traviss. If she wanted to make it clear that Skirata was NOT a character up to which anyone should look, she failed miserably. To me, it was clear that she was writing, "well, he has a history of brutal crimes... but, hey, he's a big lovable teddy-bear and is just so darned devoted to his boys! So, just ignore all that icky-dirty stuff about his past, just like his chip-off-the-old-block daughter does, and drink the kool-aid!"

    She did raise provoke a lot of thought. Her execution was just... bad. Really bad. Laughably bad, at times.
    I'm not big into comics, so, no, I have not read it. If there is precedent for what she said, my outrage does die, a bit, towards her, regarding that issue alone. Still a very crazy proposition, to me.
    You win.
     
  7. Beskyram

    Beskyram Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 25, 2011
    I was thinking more along the lines of ones that refused to fight and actually stuck with that conviction. I mean, we've got our K'Kruhks and whatnot, but I don't think I ran across many Jedi who publicly came out against the war and the clone army. I know a lot of them accepted the argument that it was a choice of either using the clone army or being overwhelmed by Dooku, but honestly, that dichotomy only holds water if all of the Jedi in the galaxy collectively forget the concepts of conscription and voluntary enlistment. It's one of those things that still surprises me at how it was handled: that none of the Jedi looked at the lack of Republic citizens enlisting as some sort of nod that maybe the Republic just wasn't worth fighting for.
     
  8. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Yes, now that I'm 30 and married, the question seems strangely irrelevant anyway.

    :eek:
     
  9. Likewater

    Likewater Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2009
    Its one of the legitimate problems with the jedi that Traviss could have adressed, Are the Jedi fighting for the republic beacuse it is worth fighting for or because its just what they have always done. Hell she could have done that in LOTF, but she didn't.

    I think that is one of the valid points of criticism of Jedi behavior that has never been adressed. And it could be used on Lukes order as well as the Russarian Order.
     
  10. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004

    I mean, we've got our K'Kruhks and whatnot, but I don't think I ran across many Jedi who publicly came out against the war and the clone army. I know a lot of them accepted the argument that it was a choice of either using the clone army or being overwhelmed by Dooku, but honestly, that dichotomy only holds water if all of the Jedi in the galaxy collectively forget the concepts of conscription and voluntary enlistment. It's one of those things that still surprises me at how it was handled: that none of the Jedi looked at the lack of Republic citizens enlisting as some sort of nod that maybe the Republic just wasn't worth fighting for.

    Rahm Kota used normal troops, Adi Gallia worked with privateers, and there was widespread conscription and enlistment to defend the Republic, as sources like the Clone Wars Sourcebook, Atlas and Chronology mention and the TCW show us milita/local forces fighting several times. There are also groups like the Sons and Daughters of Freedom, the Ailon or just as an example the Royal Alderaan Civil Fleet and actual Republic Officers we see in those nice uniforms they will keep wearing as Officers of the Empire ;) etc. So of course there are other people defending the Republic then just the Jedi and clones. The Clone army just offered a highly trained fighting force to defend the Republic at the start and prevent it from being crushed in the beginning.
     
  11. Likewater

    Likewater Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2009
    I know we are getting off track, But being crushed by incompetant weak droids?

    The later models maybe, but the mass produced Roger-rogers?
     
  12. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    You are absolutely no fun.
     
  13. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2003
    @ G.A.J.
    You could have made it more fun by replying in Latin, or some botched Mandarin even. ;)
    Half of us would not have known what the hell you were saying, but we would have understood that it was a pretty good jab. :p

    Yeah, hoity-toity smarm on a msg board is a diamond in the coalmine.

    [image=http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n107/SithStarSlayer/TurDuckenMan.jpg]
     
  14. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    It's times like these that I miss the presence of Excellence the most... [face_laugh]
     
  15. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Hangs head in shame. Yes, yes. You are right. Getting too many different EU memes of this magnitude in the same thread will likely blow up the boards. It'd be worse than a resonance torpedo hitting the sun. And. . . I'd hate to have people somehow blame me for that war crime.

    That crime against continuity can never be forgotten. I agree, the rewrites were misguided; just as the molestation of the Marvel backstory. It still grates on me, knowing that one of the better Insider articles got shredded, for really no good reason at all.

    It's not like there wasn't precedent in that regard -- Mara Jade. That describes arguably one of the most popular EU characters ever to a tee. Sure, Mara has a few more years on Skirata -- but just let a few others contribute to the cult of "I was soooo bad, but now I'm doing good," and he'll be at the head of the line in no time.

     
  16. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    [gives Genghis a high five]

    first of all, I do agree with Karen it is wrong to use a slave army of clones

    ok, and why do the Jedi get the blame for the Clone Army? Pardon me, wasn't it the SENATE that created the Grand Army of the Republic?

    the simple fact is, the Republic does not NEED jedi approval to use the Clone Army, and will do so with or without jedi participation

    how would the jedi be morally superior to refuse to act as generals? are more clones gonna die with jedi leaders, lightsabers drawn and force powers at the ready, or with the jedi just sitting on the sidelines and watching them get mowed down and saying "i've washed my hands of this"

    how much good did it do the avg clone that Bardan became a Mando

    and how is becoming an unscrupulos merc/bounty hunter taking a moral high ground?

    kirata whines about how clones are people and should be able to live normal lives, but teaches them to respect a culture that encourages taking people's lives non-chalantly for pay-off; he and his clones repeatedly MURDER innocent, law-abiding citizens doing their duty who just happen to be in the wrong place, wrong time

    re: Arligan
    while scout is a good example of a character who never flinches before Kirata's brainwashing, Arligan is not, as he is thoroughly deflated by chastisement from Kirata and Kina Ha; its sickening how easily he caves in to Kirata's unsubstantiated, paranoid, and STUPID fear he's gonna run off with that baby; and Kina Ha's claim Jedi don't act as military officers flies in the face of millennia of historic precedent; i'd respect Arligan more if he'd called them out on their nonsense
     
    Lady_Misty likes this.
  17. ATimson

    ATimson Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2003
    The Jedi created them, the Senate paid them, the Jedi killed them.

    Both parties didn't treat them right, but the Senate is, as best I can tell, only guilty of sins of omission. They didn't ask where they came from, they didn't ask about their background, they simply fed them & paid them & provided for their needs.

    Only the Jedi committed sins of commission regarding the army.

    The Jedi bought them; the Senate could only use the army if the Jedi released them and they were separately commissioned. The Senate has no right, except perhaps eminent domain, to start using the clones if the Jedi refuse.
     
  18. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    Sifo-Dyas and Dooku were acting independently, not under council authority

    the senate certainly does have the right, as the jedi serve under their authority and at their discretion; the jedi order answers to the senate as part of the judicial department

    the Senate created the army, as seen in AOTC; the senate granted Palpatine emergency powers so he could create the army

    the Senate certainly knew their origin; the army is called the Clone Army, that kinda gives it away; their official designations begin CT "Clone Trooper"
     
  19. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Punching Nazis in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Interesting. As I said, I have not read all of her work. I am getting an idea of why she is hated among some, though. There is a mindset among some that fans dare not speak against the Jedi or suggest that they might be flawed in any way. (That's a general statement, not pointing fingers at anyone in this thread.) I actually liked Traviss's pointing out the hypocrisy of the PT Jedi "no attachment" rule in No Prisoners. "Yeah, Jedi aren't allowed to marry because such an attachment leads to the Dark Side, except for this obscure sect of Jedi who have managed to stay on the Light Side in spite of being allowed to marry. And it doesn't matter anyway because if you are a Jedi Master whom the Jedi Council likes, and you are part of an endangered species, they'll throw the rule so far out the window that you can even be a polygamist if you want."

    All that being said, however, I do agree that blaming the Jedi for having "no problem with" the clone army is ridiculous. For one thing, the Jedi did have a problem with it, the Council was opposed to the Military Creation Act. For another thing, did they really have a choice about leading the clones? Maybe a few Jedi could have gone to Palpatine and told him to shove it, but we saw the results of that a few years later.

    And the idea of the Mandalorians having a better moral compass than the Jedi is just laughable to me.
     
    Lady_Misty and Esg like this.
  20. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Its kinda funny. Captain Maze says basically the exact same thing in 501st:

    Maze- "You didn't free them from the Jedi. You brainwashed them for Mandalore. When are you going to let them think for themselves?"


    Page 372 of 501st actually has Arligan calling Kal on his double standards, with Ny 's POV pointing out Skirata's "spectacular double standards". It's also Ny's opinion in the same scene that Zey simply chooses to drop the subject when there is clearly an arguement to make. At no point does he admit that Kal is right, that the Jedi are "baby stealers", he just realizes that arguing with Skirata isn't going to get him anywhere.

    As for Jusik, I compeletly agree with you. He didn't do the clones any good by turning tail and running. I've never had a high opinion of him.

     
  21. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    yeah, i thought her creation of the altisian jedi was certainly interesting. i mean, we knew there were jedi out there that ignored the council, but a whole sect 2000 strong under a charismatic leader? that's 1/5 the size of the orthodox order; these people are a real galaxy-wide rival tradition, not some little local cell like the Green Jedi
     
  22. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Except they were not 2000 Jedi. I forget exact numbers but 2000 was essentially the size of their nomadic group which included many non force users. Numbers of actual Jedi were much lower.
     
  23. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Wasn't it. . .

    . . .3,000,000? [face_whistling]
     
  24. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    By "her" did you mean Barbara Hambly?

    Something something "whoever placed the order did not have permission from the Jedi Council or the Senate". Yeah.

    The Jedi killed them? lol thought it was the other way around.

    Pretty sure it was over 9000.

    Yeah, that obscure sect was created before the prequels even came out, before "no attachments", so they're kinda ambiguously canon. They exist in one pre-prequel book, and then KT's stuff. Yeah, I'm guessing she dug that up for ammunition. Funny she was able to dig that up, considering that by her own admission she's never read a SW novel and knows next to nothing about the EU. Not a surprise that she acknowledges that which supports her arguments and ignores that which doesn't.

    Uh, extinction sounds like a great reason to make an exception.
     
    Lady_Misty likes this.
  25. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Of Altisian Jedi, absolutly not. He tells anakin that he's trained thousands in his lifetime, a significant part of which he spent with the Jedi Order proper. Its also clear that he trains non force sensetives as well and calls them students.