Lit A question on Karen Traviss and her work(s)

It doesn't have to be a winning scenario to be superior. Wouldn't going down by sticking to their principles and ideals be immensely better than going down as a result of betraying those principles?

Doesn't EVERYTHING we learn about the Jedi and the Force in the SW indicate that sticking to the light side and losing is better than giving into the dark and winning?

 

That's a bit like saying that Lincoln should have surrendered to the Confederacy and allowed them to legalize slavery in the North. Remember, the Jedi Knights know that the Confederacy is planning a first strike and are lead by what they suspect is a Sith Lord/know is a dark jedi.

Yes, but the problem is George is quite clear that if they stick to their principles they're also commiting evil because millions will die. While I think Karen was treated HORRIBLY by the fans on the boards over the "numbers" thing there was two things I think she went wrong:

1. Forgetting the SENATE was in charge of the Clone Army and Jedi. They never get mentioned regarding them.

2. Forgetting the Clones actively wanted to fight. Even if the Clones were freed, they'd just enlist.

 

Is using the clones an act of the dark side? It's not great certainly but is it that bad?

Also, the Jedi arguably took pains to use the clones well and with care, they didn't just throw into a meat grinder, it was: We don't want this, don't like it, but if it has to be done then we'll do it and sacrifice people only when we have to. That the Clone Wars were a gigantic Jedi trap from the start does not detract from this.

 

Maybe if Lincoln was part of a religious sect that could both touch the infinite power of the universe and wield it with superpowers.

I don't mean the Jedi should have bowed out of fighting altogether but it seems nuts that the Jedi didn't see how bad they were going with the clones. How many trillions existed in the Republic? You'd think they'd have tried conscription.

 

Remember, the Jedi don't have the authority for that.

They only could use the clones at Geonosis.

After that, it was the Senate's decision.

The Senate ALSO made the decision.

 

Yes but I believe forgetting about the Senate is a basic writers flaw, In Fate ofthe Jedi everyone has seemingly forgot the senate greenlighted alot of things that happend under Omass and later Jacen and Nathal, and they don't seemed to have changed senators.

And the Senate dosent seem to preform background checks on its perspecitve members, and seem to lack any legal system do deal with the corruption, incompetance, and dysfunction that seems to plague it.

The Senate seem to follow the rules of the Yu-gi-oh childrens card games.

 

JediBen - Yeah, but do even we look at this stuff and approach it deadly seriously as if this stuff was real? Like really real life? I'm not sure anyone does that where entertainment is concerned, do they?
I think not. Sometimes our passion for the stuff runs away with us - but that's exactly when we need help from fellow fans in order to laugh at it again.


Genghis - It's not that people disliked what Traviss may or may not have done. Nor was it a problem that Traviss disliked how Star Wars fans viewed central elements of the franchise universe.

It was a problem for Traviss and Star Wars Fans alike that she felt a need to hold such disdain for those fans, and do so in quite the public forum. I mean for crying out loud, there is no better text book example of Godwin's law in practice than several of the worst of her rants -- about fans' opinions -- and the resulting effect they had.

For the most part, Star Wars fans are a reasonable lot; and they have to tolerate a lot in their love of the universe.

But, I think in that case, there were some pretty unreasonable things. One could say, "But look at the fans -- see what she had to deal with." And there was a lot said against her that wan't right. But, I think that'd be a fallacy. It's not a level playing field. To some degree, it's cool that she would jump into the pit, reach down, pick up a big handful of it and spread it all over her, and wallow around the filth. There is a certain measure of respect.

But, in the end and in hindsight, I think the more reasonable expectation is to stay above the fray. She is, after all, certainly more of a representative of the universe than those she was railing against. And that behavior drags it all down.
Is it fair to Traviss to expect her to "be the better person?" Her doing so would only have helped and could not have hurt anything.

I guess it's not fair, but for her, that's the price of doing business. Gripers paid her to make the comments they did. Did she give the same treatment for calling people nazis?

I mean, really were things so bad -- so much worse than, say, Mark Twain's criticism (read "flaming" in today's terms) of James Fenimore Cooper? Not at all. No one in the mix was Mark Twain. And even at her best, she wasn't Cooper. So, let's put things into perspective.

Jedi Ben, I think had it exactly right. She took things too seriously. It was reflected in her OOU opinions, certainly. But, when it was reflected in her IU writings, that was likely the last straw.
Very well said, all of this!

And yu're right about the last straw too; that's simply the thing a SW writer can't allow him/herself to do!


JediBen - Is using the clones an act of the dark side? It's not great certainly but is it that bad?
I wouldn't think so. In that case all warfare and use of soldiers would be DS - and that's a pretty radical standpoint, particularly in Star Wars...

 

I always understood the trick of it was that the Jedi fist deployed the clones so they started it. But aren't Jedi supposed to have more wisdom than a politician? This is a philosophical question and one of sentient rights. Do you use a grown army of sentient human beings? This doesn't seem to be a sentient rights issue for the Jedi. They were only upset by the idea of war in general. At least that's what I inferred from the movies alone.

 

Like I said, she may have handled that poorly but that in no way excuses the behavior of others.

 

But how is that a better moral option? You're talking about overriding individual freedom to draft people en masse into a war that'll likely kill a large percentage of them and they may not have wanted to fight either!

 

I'm talking about the Senate conscripting, not the Jedi. But you have a point. I suppose to me it's like making children go to war. The clones were born for war and that creeps me out. At least with conscription there is the option to take opposition to the conscription. With the clones you don't have that option casue they know no better. I'm thinking that conscription would if anything make everyone feel obliged to examine the war and the cost of waging it more than just throwing in the clones.

 

I wonder how KT feels about droids.

 

Absolutly I feel there was a better choice available but only a very small number of Jedi took it. The choice was not to attach themselves to a single government, to not make war and condone placing sanctions on planets and systems simply because they want independence.

Look at New Plymto, the Republic placed economic sanctions on that world which shattered their economy - So the Nosarians joined the Confederacy out of a feeling of desperation. The Republic then sent the 501st, with a Jedi General at its lead, to invade New Plymto to and bring the Nosarians back into the fold........all over money and greed.

For every legitimate operation the Jedi were a part of there was one of the morally ethical ones, without even mentioning the moral and ethical issues some have with the Jedi leading a clone army bred only for war.

The Jedi Order condoned pretty much every unethical move the the Senate(via Palpatine) made, aggresivly aiding in the attack of planets even when they shouldn't have. So yes, I'd say that goes against the Jedi belief structure. When your a Jedi, someone who is suppost to carry themselves in a certain moral and ethical way, and you choose to toss that aside and just follow orders no matter what - then you have comprimised what you believe in.

The Jedi didn't just lose, they violated their basic code and beliefs, they ceased to be what they should have been.

"A Jedi does not grasp at power. A Jedi does is not a dominator, not an oppressor. To grasp for power is to abandon the ways of the Force." - Odan Urr

I believe if the Jedi had chosen to sit out the war the result would have been much different. And even if it was the same, and Palpatine won, at the very least the Jedi wouldn't have sacrificed what they should have believed in.

 

They did - the NEC stated that "uncountable" numbers were conscripted.

 

Yet arguably the reason the Jedi exist to do what they do is to protect others, so is abandoning that guardianship in order to protect their beliefs really justified? Yes the Jedi could have abandoned everyone, but the consequences of that is watching the war rage unchecked - perhaps to a worse degree than what happened.

Plus from what I recall of the Clone Wars comics DHC produced 2002-2005 plus the books there was no shortage of Jedi questioning what they were doing, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea the Jedi just shrugged and easily took up war.

 

Yeah, sometimes you get so caught up in fighting for your side you don't see that your side is no longer worth fighting for. It takes an incredible feat of detachment to completely remove yourself from the situation and choose neither side. The Jedi were guilty of trying to hold everything together when maybe they should have let it fall apart and lived to start over.

Then again, the Jedi sitting out the war would probably make a boring trilogy. I'm already thinking of rewrites, but I'll leave that alone because the prequels are over.

I agree the no win situations in the PT were done very well, with the war, the clones, and with Anakin.

 

Because actions speak louder than words.

As for the Jedi existing to protect others, thats not how the Jedi seemed to view that. The Jedi, perhaps by mistake, mistook protecting others with protecting the Republic. Its not the same thing.

 

So you're effectively advocating the Jedi abandon the Republic, stop protecting its people and you're absolutely certain things'd turn out much better?

Just doesn't fly for me, but one of the big identifying traits for me in SW is its embrace of imperfection - the galaxy is used, starships break down, there's smuggling and dodgy dealing, it follows from that that the best choices are not always made nor are available. Yet for the last decade, from about 1999 onwards, there has been this weird demand for SW to instead turn to moral perfection, which has meant practically that none of the heroes can do anything right and the villains get a free hand.

 

I think maybe that phenomenon started a bit earlier. Han shooting first -- done for just that purpose. It brings to mind the infamous discussion about "spice" once Lucasfilm realized it had a bona fide franchise on its hands: "Lucas Licensing: Wait, you mean Han was a drug dealer?!? Lucas: What do you think spice was? Something they used at the dinner table?"

I absolutely do not see the Jedi "sitting it out." Let it all go to crap, because somehow it's wrong to use all the soldiers you can possibly have?

For, me it was really clear. There is absolutely no problem with using the clonetroopers to fight. The problem is with the bazillion (tens of trillions? hundreds of trillions? who knows?) of non-Clonetrooper Republic citizens who simply chose not to fight when there was clearly an existential threat to the Republic. People were still hanging out in clubs. People were still sitting warm at home watching the latest holos. People were still out selling deathsticks to burnouts who could care less what the Separatists were doing. They're the problem in all of this. But, that's not the Jedi's fault.

The Jedi took their rightful place leading the battle for whomever it was that was going to fight for the Republic. That's where they needed to be.

But, for one split-second pause on the part of Mace Windu, everything would be all different. Had the Jedi posse stopped Sidious -- captured or killed -- everything would have come to an end. Everything would have come to light. And the clonetroopers would become heroes, facing the very practical problem of how to de-militarize large numbers of people who only know military skills.

 

In what fiction?

 

Pg. 57, in reference to the Battle of Kamino entry (so very early on): "Conscription, however, was a necessarily reality. Countless beings of every species became drafted into the Grand Army of the Republic."

Mind you, this is two months after Geonosis.

If that was the case, I'd sure like to see it in practice, because for the next THREE YEARS, all we see fighting are the 'troopers. There are a few willing, like Haruun Kal. Indigenous populations turned towards special warfare. Local militias.

But "countless" conscipts "of every species?" We haven't seen that in anywhere the numbers to support the NEC, from what we've seen to date.

And regarding the Jedi non-activity. Would they be willing to open themselves up to treason? Courts-martial during time of war (and therefore, maybe death). NEC Pg. 55: "...This clarified the military command process, but it also had the effect of requiring that all Jedi take an active role in the war."

It would stretch the imagination to think the Grand Army of the Republic would grant "conscientious objector" status to the Jedi Order in its entirety. As of the Chancellor's decsion, the Jedi became soldiers. SHould they have chosen to sit it out, they'd be open to the full spectrum of military justice -- and during a time of war. Would you advocate the Jedi Order swaps sides to fight for the Spearatists should the GAR begin using strong arm tactics under the rule of law against those Jedi who chose to take a less active role. THat's what they'd have to do, because they'd otherwise be traitors to the Republic.

 

We also haven't seen much of the non-stormtrooper Imperial Army forces in stories, yet those have been referred to in virtually any source that described the Imperial military.

The discussions were already made in the old GAR thread, but I've always found it amusing that those complaining about how "unrealistic" the numbers were cited exactly the reasons you did - that they don't really appear (although there are a number of instances that, in fact, they do) in stories despite it being completely unrealistic that the vast number of Republic citizens, not to mention pre-existing sectorial and planetary forces, would just not fight in the war. (Apropos of the thread, Traviss came down on side that there weren't any non-clone troops in the Republic forces)

 

Was the 3,000,000 thing really a big deal? What a stupid thing to argue over. If she's obviously wrong, just tell yourself she's wrong and move on. I really don't see how it affects anything, no one has been restricted to that number. It's not like anyone is counting. It's not like Leland has been counting every clone trooper who has ever died, creeping ever closer to the cap waiting to tell every writer that there's no more clone troopers for them to use.

We all know mooks are infinite. There are exactly as many as the writer wants at any time in any place.

 

i never really cared much about the size of the clone army

my take is that she stuck to a number that was already canonical BEFORE she came along; she actually STUCK to the canon on this issue

this seems to be the one issue where many people wanted her to rewrite canon

my take on it is not to assume the official count can't be right because of [insert favorite fan argument], but to say, ok, here's the canon count, let us figure out why it IS right

I've always believed there are lots of non-clones fighting this war all over, like Rotsu's folks

the official stories focus on the clones bc they are the distinctive poster boys that make this war unique, set it apart from all the other wars, and bc they directly fight under Jedi command; most of the stories are not only clone focused but Jedi focused; we have very few stories about non clone officers leading non clone troops [or at least, exclusively about that]; and most of the stories focus on a very small number of those Jedi, mostly Ob1 and Anakin (wuth Ahsoka now!), Quinlan and Aayla

personally, I haven't ever bothered to look at the conversations between Traviss and fans, and that's never been anything that has upset me; the few times i communicated with her she was always perfectly civil

i don't care if she portrays jedi as less than perfect. they are less than perfect. what i don't like is her preachiness about it, and turning such a legion of characters into mouthpieces with the same opinions

Daala, Skirata, Little Jedi Boy Blue, Holy Roly, Kina Ha, Boba Fett, etc. are hard to distinguish from each other as individuals in her works, and hard to distinguish from Karen Traviss. As I heard it put in one lit class, the pen is just too visible on the page

this is not just a problem with Traviss, and its not just about Jedi; this is a problem I have with MANY books, including a large # of Star Trek novels (which have no Jedi and only occasionally clones)

 

The "numbers" was always a red herring. Matthew Stover got exactly the same flak when he wrote Shatterpoint and stated that there were only 1.2 million clones six months into the war - he tersely replied to take it up with Lucas, as he had contacted him about the very issue and was told (a) the numbers stand and (b) the reference by the Kaminoans to 'units' in AOTC meant single troopers, not anything else.
Mysteriously, this was completely forgotten when the GAR article came out.