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Lit A question on Karen Traviss and her work(s)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Pyrotek, Nov 28, 2011.

  1. Kev Snowmane

    Kev Snowmane Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Ok, took me a bit but I'm most of the way through The Clone Wars and No Prisoners. Everything I liked about them initially (Rex and Ahsoka interaction, etc) I still like. I also like how Travis handles the Altisian Jedi.


    I still don't like how she can't go more than a few pages before someone reflects on how evil/bad/wrong the Republic is and wonders if maybe they're on the wrong side (or should just go crawl in a hole somewhere, or whatever). I'm also not a fan of the all-encompassing cynicism that seems to pervade so many of the characters.


    Will I read more Travis? Probably. I can be a sucker for a genre I really like. (I even managed to make it through some of the Marshak/Culbreth Star Trek novels back when they were still writing them.) But I will be reading them with a strong mental "filter" as to how accurately they're depicting what is "really happening" in the story.


    Now, on to the other Karen (as soon as I finish the last bit of the Travis ones and have some time).
     
  2. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Far be it for me to defend the Saxtonite position, but I think this is unfairly characterizing a select, immature subset of them as the whole shebang. I don't think Saxton himself gave a kriff about "winning" the Trek vs. Wars debate, or even whether he contributed to it; I think his opinions (and, by extension, most of his adherents) came from an honest but misguided weighing of certain evidence over other evidence. His "findings," and subsequent publications, were of course a godsend to the Wars side of the Trek vs. Wars debate, so of course he is beloved amongst them; but I don't think they represent a majority of his fans, nor do I think they unduly influenced him in his findings.
     
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  3. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    I am just starting the RC series and I'm going to ignore all the fan griping against them and their writer I see so pervasive here. I find it refreshing that someone finally dares admit basically all are Grey and Republic/Jedi doesn't equal do no wrong.
     
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  4. Kev Snowmane

    Kev Snowmane Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2013
    It's possible, but I was (back in that day) in on the tail end of the debate, and I was told repeatedly that Saxton was a close friend/associate of Mike Wong (aka "Darth Wong" and yes, that fact is a matter of public record so I'm not "doxxing" him by saying it). Wong ran (and still runs, AFAIK) StarDestroyer.Net, which was/is the main hangout for the "rabid Warsie" crowd. I know he was on older mailing lists with Wong, as Darkstar was able to prove.

    Historical note, it was the "rabid Warsie" crowd that gave Traviss some of the worst crap over her later books because she wouldn't overinflate her prose about how powerful Wars tech was to give them more evidence.

    But back to Traviss' books...
     
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  5. moonjump05

    moonjump05 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2013

    Yeah, sometimes you just have to ignore the over the top complaining and just decide for yourself.

    I think I might be in the minority when I say that I enjoyed most of Traviss' Star Wars books even though I don't like Mando culture and still like the calling out of the Jedi.
     
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  6. Mange

    Mange Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Strawman, no-one has argued that starfighter weapons are in the gigaton range (they're in the low kiloton range based on the movies). And did you happen to see Attack of the Clones in which such a small ship as Slave I is packing firepower in the three-digit megaton range? Furthermore, Dr. Saxton has, to my knowledge, never shown any interest in the vs debate. His site SWTC is about Star Wars, not the vs debate, and he used the movies as the primary source. He used the results when writing the ICS.

    What?! Absolutely wrong. His work has been used in the vs. debate, but he started his site well before the debate got onto the Internet. Or do you really think SD.net sneaked him into Lucasfilm or what?

    One can have an opinion without making such claims.
     
  7. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2015
    I have absolutely no problems with calling out of the Jedi - they made mistakes for sure. (They badly mishandled Anakin's situation, they were far too arrogant/set in their ways and more besides.) I have a problem with authors calling out the Jedi for flaws they literally just made up, or making characters do stupid things purely so they look stupid.

    And in this particular case her specific beef is that the Jedi created the clones so they would have a 'slave army'... which is exactly did NOT happen. The Sith were responsible for the clones, the Jedi just tried to deal with the situation they were forced into. It's not even a question of contradictory EU, Obi-Wan specifically says in AOTC that Sifo-Dyas was apparently dead when he was supposed to have ordered the clones, and Mace very specifically says the Council did NOT sanction the army. It's right there that something is a bit wonky... but Traviss missed it completely and took things in the wrong direction entirely. That's sloppy and it's lazy and gives me no reason to take her opinions seriously as she's clearly not using the established facts, merely a version that suits what she wants.
     
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  8. Stymi

    Stymi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2002
    Evil people created a slave army! Those darn evil people. Well, they're here, and we do kinda sorta need an army right now, so let's just use them as a slave army. But WE are not responsible. Now go fight and die on our orders clones!
     
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  9. Mange

    Mange Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2003
    jakobitis89's point still stands: It was the Senate which granted Palpatine emergency powers and the Jedi were subordinate to the Senate: It wasn't the Jedi but the Senate which utilized the clone army to fight. There is a moral ambiguity, but the army existed and the Jedi treated the clones with respect (though there were exceptions, most notably Pong Krell) and strived to impart a sense of individuality to the clones (IIRC, it was thanks to the Jedi that the clones started referring to themselves by names rather than numbers).
     
  10. Stymi

    Stymi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2002
    Just following orders to exploit a slave army...not our fault. Now go die clones! We'll treat you really well though! Except for when we don't.
     
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  11. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2015
    Sure... the other option being ''Well, sorry clones but we're just too superior to get involved. We're going to let a bunch of politically/financially appointed morons waste your lives in order to preserve our moral high ground. Nothing personal. Oh by the way, love that whole numbers-not-names things you've got going. Humanising you is, like, totally stupid. Bye now."
     
  12. Kev Snowmane

    Kev Snowmane Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2013
    No, and neither did you, despite what some people claim. Even a single megaton explosion would utterly vaporize everything for many 100s of meters from impact. That did not happen, so that firepower claim is invalid.

    http://www.st-v-sw.net/Warsiegroup.html Darkstar put paid to the nonsense about a "neutral Saxton" a long time ago.

    There is much evidence of his collaboration with Wong, et al so as to inflate SW firepower estimates for vs debating purposes. That he happened to be picked to write a book that would be at least semi-canon was an unlooked for gift of circumstances that his side grabbed onto with both hands and wouldn't let go.

    His faulty conclusions were pointed out to him prior to his authorship of ICS, but he deliberately used them in ICS to that he and his friends could point to them and say: "See! Lucasfilm agrees! Canon book says so!"

    His opportunity to "stack the deck" may have been happenstance, but his seizure of it and capitalization of it was intentional.

    Were they to just let the Republic fall to the Seperatists? The name is a misnomer, btw, because the Seps were actively ATTACKING Republic worlds and trying to take them over as far back as the Blockade of Naboo.

    So, two less than optimal choices. The Jedi chose the "least bad" option, as they should have.
     
  13. Stymi

    Stymi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2002
    Or, they could liberate them and give a choice in how they'd like to live their lives. Lots of different things they could have done. But they chose the exploitation of a slave army in order to do good method.
     
  14. Kev Snowmane

    Kev Snowmane Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2013
    And what would they have chosen? All they knew was warfare. That is what they had been trained for.

    The Jedi honored the Republic's moral obligation not to abandon living beings that were created on their behalf, no matter how unknowningly.
     
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  15. Stymi

    Stymi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2002
    Maybe some would and maybe some wouldn't. But that'd at least be their choice.
     
  16. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 27, 2015
    They couldn't let the clones go though... because a Sith Lord and a psychotic tyrannical cyborg warlord had a colossal army of droids about to launch an attack. The Republic wouldn't have survived without an army to hold the droids back, the Jedi couldn't do it alone. They were forced to choose between the innocent civilians who would die, and the clones. They chose the civilians. It was an awful thing they had to do... but they did HAVE to do it, or let innocent people die.
     
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  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Punching Nazis in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I would find it beyond disgusting, and bash the Jedi worse than Karen Traviss does*, if they played the "we're too principled to get involved" card.

    Not sure the Jedi had the authority to liberate the clones, considering that they were not the ones financing the army, and the Senate ordered its use.




    ...*actually maybe not worse, because I still would not volunteer to participate in Order 66.
     
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  18. Kev Snowmane

    Kev Snowmane Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 1, 2013
    And no one took away that choice. The existence of Cut Lawquane (sp?) proves that. So does Slick. The clones served because ultimately they wanted to.
     
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  19. Stymi

    Stymi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 10, 2002
    At least there's a recognition of the moral ambiguity involved here, instead of Jedi always = good guys because they're Jedi.
     
  20. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 27, 2015
    And it wasn't actually the Jedi who decided the Clones were going to be used. The Senate made that particular decision, the Jedi just stepped in to try and make sure the clones were used responsibly and treated like living beings not organic droids. The clones were absolutely screwed over, there's no debating that. But they were done for as soon as they were created - well before the Jedi even knew they existed.

    I am not saying that what happened to the clones was right, or fair. Because it clearly was not. The Jedi did an absolutely terrible thing in using the clone army. But it was not as bad as letting the Separatists go unchecked. The choice they made was an awful one, but one they had to make.
     
  21. Mange

    Mange Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2003
    "Vaporize"? Uh, what? Why? No, it's the energy required to disintegrate asteroids of that size into pebbles that it's based on.
    So Saxton was on a mailing list talking geek. And?

    Nonsense. For all what I know, they talked geek and were exchanging ideas, calculations and whatnot before SD.net even existed! Darkstar didn't put "anything to rest", all he did was putting a spin on something that had already been said in the open. Heck, in one of Darkstar's links, Dr. Saxton writes: "I usually ignore STvSW.".

    What "faulty conclusions"? Don't make unsubstantiated claims! Saxton wasn't hired because of his alleged involvement in the vs debate.

    EDIT: This really isn't the thread to discuss this and I don't want to derail the thread. Is there a Saxton-thread? I can't seem to find one.
     
  22. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Yes so many lay all blame at Sith feet for errors Jedi make. That's something I won't do. In the film it's debatable who ordered them but the Jedi just up and use the Clones no problems THEIR ERROR not Sith.
     
  23. Mange

    Mange Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2003
    No, the Senate's "error". From a pure narrative standpoint, it's not difficult to see the reaction if the Jedi, who were subordinate to the Senate and servants of the Republic, had committed a treasonous act. The Jedi were also aware of the Sith's involvement.
     
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  24. Stymi

    Stymi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2002
    Is there a source in which the Senate orders the Jedi to be generals for the GAR? Not that that excuses them. But I have no recollection of that happening. It was just, bam, clones, bam, Jedi Generals. Because they were supposed to be keepers of the peace, not soldiers, and all that.

    But the Jedi are more than mere servants. They have a position of influence and power in the Republic. They make and influence policy as well. They even planned a coup.
     
  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Punching Nazis in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    They answer to the Senate and the Supreme Chancellor; they have no authority or power over either of those offices.

    Planning a coup does not imply a position of power. Successfully executing the coup would bring power, but not planning one.
     
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