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Lit A question on Karen Traviss and her work(s)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Pyrotek, Nov 28, 2011.

  1. Stymi

    Stymi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2002
    My point was they have considerable power and influence. They also advise both those offices.

    And there are limits to what any body can be ordered to do. That changes when you become a soldier though. But even then, they had higher status than soldier. They were still the elite power class known as Jedi.

    But that doesn't answer my question. When and how did they become generals of the GAR?
     
  2. stung4ever

    stung4ever Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 17, 2002
    Under most of the Republic's history, yes.

    Once a Sith Lord becomes Supreme Chancellor? No actual power or influence over that office. How much control Palpatine had over the Senate can be debated. In addition, how much of that control was due to the Force and how much of it was due to Palpatine being a master of politics is also up in the air.
     
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  3. Tim Battershell

    Tim Battershell Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2012
    IIRC, it was supposed to have been when the 'General Orders' were legislated - same set that included 'Order 66'. Knights and Mastes became instant Generals, Padawans all became 'Commanders'.
     
  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Monster Of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I don't have that source on how they became the GAR's generals, not sure if there is such a source, but there are many sources--pretty much every source that includes the Jedi, with the possible exception of a couple of TCW episodes--which indicate that it would be grotesquely out of character for them to say "We want to be generals, because power."

    It is much more in character for them to do so reluctantly because they were ordered to do so.
     
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  5. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2015
    Mace is on the record as specifically stating 'Jedi are peacekeepers, not soldiers' and there are other quotes of a similar nature... and he is the Grand Master of the entire Council, so his view there is pretty much the view of the Jedi as a whole. They don't see themselves as soldiers. So for them to have BECOME soldiers is because they were made to be. And at that time there is only one body with the actual power to make the Jedi do anything: the Senate (and even then they can't FORCE the Jedi, only make it very clear they think it's a good idea.)
     
  6. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    The Jedi were generals and commanders of the Clone Army because it was "officially" an army of their own creation to assist them in combating the military army of the enemy which grossly outnumbered the limited number of Jedi Knights. Jedi were not soldiers but more diplomats and sheriffs whom are supposed to be peacemakers but instead are/were being misused to conduct a war effort as the longer it lasted the longer they lost their way which weakened them and strengthened the darkside, the Sith. Their style of warfare was a problem for those Palpatine began filling the Republic army with in key places of leadership that would eventually take over complete control and even control from the Clones themselves, guys like Tarkin who came from militarist backgrounds.
     
  7. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    I believe some of the justification is behind why the Senate was having such trouble with their military bill prior to the Battle of Geonosis - the only military forces prior were individual planet, system and sector forces. Everybody would want to be in charge, and not have their rivals having a say, and no one wanted to relinquish their military power to the central government after a thousand years of freedom. The Jedi were the perfect 'neutral party' to be in charge of the GAR, and had a history of supporting the Judicial Department actions as well.
    Numerous EU sources show that over the course of the war Palpatine gradually eroded the independent local militaries and arranged for them to be centrally controlled anyways by the end of the war - aided by people like Tarkin who had already organized regional militaries.
     
  8. Kev Snowmane

    Kev Snowmane Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2013
    No one is claiming that...not that I've seen at least.

    If we accept Saxton's nonsense "research", this was caused by a megaton-scale hit:

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5a/9f/46/5a9f4628b11132c421c9d9fd5c74d224.jpg (not an actual screen cap, but an accurate approximation of R2 after being hit by Vader's fire)

    and this: http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130305010453/starwars/images/0/03/Biggs_death.png

    and this: http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111104223747/starwars/images/7/71/KrailKaput.JPG

    This is what a megaton-scale explosions look like: http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/images/nucscale.jpg (1mt would be about 1/10 the size of the Ivy Mike blast)

    As a point of reference, Hiroshima was hit by a 15kt (that's kiloton) blast, which is an order of magnitude or more LESS than what Saxton has starfighter weapons pumping out per shot.

    Here's a partial description of how big a 1mt blast would be:

    "Within a millisecond after detonation, the diameter of the fireball from a 1 megaton (Mt) air burst is 150 m. This increases to a maximum of 2200 m within 10 seconds," ( http://fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/effects.htm )

    And SW fighters routinely are hit by these alleged yields and get little more than scorched (and the pilots don't die from terminal radiation poisoning).

    Saxton's calcs are garbage. Pure unadulterated garbage.

    When he supposedly "doesn't care" about vs. Furthermore, his "working draft" blog/site pages include multiple SW vs ST comparisons, as shown by Darkstar's cache links.

    You just contradicted yourself. You claim Saxton "didn't care", but you even have HIM admitting that he at least sometimes cares.

    And whether he "cares" or not, his calculations are garbage that is not supported by the evidence in any fashion.

    See above for just one example of his garbage conclusions.

    And stop strawmanning what I said. I said he wrote his conclusions high to further his vs interests, not that he was hired to do so. He got lucky and was given an opening to stack the deck, which he took and rode as far and fast as he could.

    Nope. Jedi have been leading Republic armies for 1000s of years, going at least as far back as the Great Galactic War. They are part of the Republic military at need through the Judicial Forces.

    No, they advise. They give an opinion. They have no vote or veto power to force the Republic to do anything.

    Actually, that would be Yoda.
     
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  9. Kev Snowmane

    Kev Snowmane Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2013
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Mace is head of the Council, but Yoda head of the Order - at least in AOTC.

    Oddly, the title for "elected leader of the High Council" is Master of the Order:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Master_of_the_Order

    whereas the title for "leader of the Order" is Grand Master:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Master
    You can have a megaton-scale "energy release" with little or no gamma rays - an asteroid impact would be a good example. That said, you would still expect a lot of light, and a big blast.

    Wasn't so much Saxton doing the "energy calculations" as his fellows - Brian Young and the like - with Saxton drawing from them for the figures he put into ICS. Still, the "total vaporization" assumptions come across as a bit dubious to me.
     
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  11. Mange

    Mange Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Key, I've already said that I won't discuss that further in this thread. If you can find a more appropriate thread as to not derail the discussion here, then fine by me.
     
  12. First Of My Name

    First Of My Name Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2014
    Directly advising the Chancellor of the Republic is most definitely a position of power and influence. The Council might not make any laws or have a vote in the Senate, but they've had the ear of the Senate's leader for centuries. And after Geonosis all of them get a command in the military.
    And they wouldn't have been able to carry out a coup attempt if they hadn't beenwho they are. Four Jedi were alone in a room with the Chancellor in ROTS, and they planned to arrest him. Had this been any Chancellor but Palpatine, they would have succeeded. Few others would have been able to get that close. They're more than servants.

    Btw, tt's been a long time since I watched AOTC, but aren't Mace and Yoda directly involved in getting the Senate to accept the Clone Army, via Jar Jar? My memory of that part is hazy but if I'm right, then that's another example of them wielding political power.
     
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  13. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The Senate wouldn't know the Clone Army existed if Yoda and Mace had not told them about it.

    At least in theory. Palpatine could have told them - but there would be the question of how he knows.

    The junior novelization suggests that Yoda strongly disapproves of the Senate's leaping toward war - but also feels he can't interfere:

    Everyone listened carefully to Mace Windu's summary; then Bail Organa shook his head. "The Commerce Guilds are preparing for war - there can be no doubt of that."
    Yoda's ears twitched. Listen, these Senators did not. They feared, and reacted. They did not think.
    "Now we need that clone army!" Senator Ask Aak burst out.
    But everyone knew the Senate would never give its approval for that - not until it was too late. And there were not enough Jedi to hold off an army of droids.
    "Through negotiation, the Jedi maintains peace." Yoda said pointedly. "To start a war, we do not intend." There might, even yet, be time to talk a way out of the conflict ... but he sensed no patience in the room, only fear and urgency as the Senators discussed what to do.
    "The Senate must vote the Chancellor emergency powers," Mas Amedda suggested at last. "Then he could approve the use of the clones."
    War, you mean. Yoda thought sadly. What other use was there for an army? Not in centuries had Yoda so wanted to comment, to interfere in the politics playing out before him, but he had already said what was needed, and the Senators had not grasped his meaning. He held his peace. Jedi serve. Make laws, we do not.
    The Senators looked at one another. Plainly, they thought the idea was a good one, but none of them wanted to be the one to propose such a huge change in the way the government ran. Finally, Jar Jar Binks stepped forward.
    "Mesa proud to proposing the motion to give yousa honor emergency powers," he said to Palpatine, and the matter was settled. Jar Jar would bring the motion up, and the other Senators would support it. When it passed, Chancellor Palpatine would approve the emergency use of the clone army.
    Barely an hour later, Yoda sat beside Mace Windu, looking down from the visitors' balcony as the Senate seethed. The news had leaked out; he could feel the fear hanging over the chamber like dense fog. Fear is the path to the dark side, he thought, but the Senate would not understand even if there were some way he could tell them.
    With almost indecent haste, the motion to give Palpatine full emergency powers was proposed and passed. The Senate cheered Jar Jar's courage, and Palpatine rose to speak.
    "It is with great reluctance that I have agreed to this," the Chancellor said. "The power you give me, I will lay down when this crisis has abated. And as my first act with this new authority, I will create a grand army of the Republic to counter the increasing threats of the Separatists."
    Yoda shook his head sadly. Beside him, Mace Windu stirred. "It is done, then," he said heavily. He looked at Yoda. "I will take what Jedi we have left and go to Geonosis to help Obi-Wan."
    That left the other task to him. Yoda nodded, accepting it. "Visit I will the cloners on Kamino, and see what it is they are creating." And to see whether there still is some way this war to avoid.
     
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