Amph A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread

Coffee, stop licking frogs wherever you are...

 

GRRM isn't going to do anything with this series any longer except get fat and keep issuing press releases that delay the publication of any further novels.

 

The past few days have shown that anything is possible. Maybe we’ll even get the last two books during GRRM’s lifetime

 

So 2018 is here. At what point this year, in the absence of an announcement of the release date for Winds, do we finally give up all hope and admit to ourselves that the TV show ending is the only one we’re going to get?

At this point, I wish George would be honest with everyone, including himself, admit no more books are ever coming, and take over writing the show.

 

What do you guys think of Preston Jacobs Dornish Master Plan Theories?



You think he has a point is is a raving mad man?

 

I also have to say I am not a believe in R+L=J, for the only reason is that a song of ice and fire seems to be a deliberate brake down analysis and subversion traditional fantasy characters. Especially through the lens of a functional medieval culture with consistent cultural rules.

IE Cersie can't be an evil queen, and in the sole female ruler because Westeros is a patriarchal society.

I don't think R+L=J because it is so obviously in line with medieval tropes it seems that GRR Martin would specifically seek to subvert it.

 

He doesn't subvert every trope. It's clearly hinted at that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna. I think the way it may be "subverted" is that Jon never finds out and it doesn't particularly matter.

 

Honestly about the only thing Martin does go out of his way to undermine is the baseline assumption that things will automatically go well for main characters.

 

I never really thought the theory was all that clear, How many times had he stated "Who ever Jon Snow's mother was she left nothing of it in his looks", Jon looks like a Ned clone, R+L=J supposes he looks like Ned because Neds sister slept with a Blond haired purple eyed guy from a Valayrian bloodline?

While at the same time pointing out the difference in Robert Baratheons bastards, and his official children with Cercie?

I just don't see it thematically fitting. Could it work? sure but thematically it seems at cross purposes with his verisimilitude...I guess.

 

I'm confused here, are you denying that R+L=J as if it's a show-only outcome? I also don't quite understand how you can argue that it's not a thematic fit when the entire thing is called a Song of Ice and Fire. The 'he looks like Ned' and 'nothing left of his mother' are of course classic dramatic ironies. We're all expecting that his looks come from his father, but it's actually his mother. The Baratheons had dominant genes which influenced their children's looks, and was pointed out because it served a narrative function, but you can't necessarily expand that one example to all families and genetics in the kingdoms. Jon doesn't have to look like Rhaegar.

 

Show? this is the book thread. I mean Full Metal Alchemist had a completely different ending than the manga the shows and the books split long ago.

As for the song of Ice and Fire, Song in this writers previous works usually have something to do with hive minds. What the title mean's I leave that to the future to sus out, cause I have no idea.

I mean Jon look like Ned, not "Jon has first men looks", Not "Jon had the looks common of the first men like his father", but "Jon looks like Ned" I forget which book but does not Cathryn take umbrage at Jon's looks, her inner monologue stating he looks more like Ned's son than her own true born children? No one ever states Jon looks like Lyanna, or Jon and Arya share a long faced First Men look.

And all I really get from the R+L=J theories is 1) Ned is to honorable to cheat, 2) The title of the series is 'A song of Ice and Fire", 3) "The timing vaguely matches Jon's age. Maybe its just me, but I find most of the justifications flimsy.

Is there more to Lyanna Stark's abduction? Sure, but I find R+L=J no more valid than R+L=D, or R+L=Young Griff.

 

I must also mention the whole Chosen one by Bloodline seems to fly in the face of GRRM book wide castigation of the nobeilty system which is upheld by bloodline primogeniture.

 

Jon can be the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar... and not be the great savior everyone is expecting.

 

True enough, true enough.

But of the three young protagonists (View point characters) in the running for major players are Jon, Danny and Brann. Danny's past is just as murky and full of contradictions as Jon.

 

It's not a theory! It's fact. If you're expecting the books to deviate it from this outcome, you're in for a serious disappointment.

 

It is a theory, GRRM never said R+L=J is anything more than a fan theory. From the rumors when the writers from the show asked him for permission to make it GRRM asked them "Who is Jon Snow's mother", the story is when they responded "Lyanna Stark" it is stated that GRRM smiled.

That's pretty vague, especially for a writer who keeps secrets close to his chest. I am not going to insult D.B. Weiss and David Bemioff like some book focused fans have but their style of story telling is very, very different from GRRM. Lets face the truth we don't know if he is even going to bring back Jon Snow, (we assume he is due to the multi book investment) or even if Snow is going to be brought back as a POV character. After look at Catlyin "Stone Heart" Stark, hell look at the prominence of Dorn in the books as compared to the show, or Jon Connington and Young Griff. With Jon Connington bringing stone scale to Westeros the books may be radically different from the show.

Maester Marwin, Glass Candles, the abnormal behavior of the Brave Companions all hint that the Starks, Lannesters and Danny have found themselves caught in a rather large conspiracy. What ever Littlefringers deal is it is different from what Vary's was talking about in the dragon room, I am not sure Winds of Winter or a Hymn for Spring will be anything like the shows.

 

If Rhaegar and Lyanna aren't Jon's parents, then who are? What are Ned's memories and dreams about? What is his gnawing guilt about? Why is there emphasis on his opposition to harming children no matter who they are (e.g., Targaryens)? Why does a man like him say that there is honor in some lies? Come on.

 

Except he's spent several books and several thousand pages now being exactly the great savior that exists in many fantasy novels. His storyline is one of the most painfully conventional that can be imagined, especially if, as expected they grant him a resurrection in the next film.

 

Ned and some random woman, Ned an Ashara Dayne, Ned and the woman he mentioned Wyla. Is not Ned a Character not a caricature of a honor robot?

What are Ned's dreams about? A traumatic experience in a civil war he fought to avoid execution in which its starting point was the execution of the father and brother, and its end he lost his sister.

Why the emphasis on opposing harming children? Probably the same reason Why Danny has a berserk button about slavery, personal experience. Ned and Robert were still wards when the Mad king called for their heads, this started a massive civil war that got a lot of children killed . You guys have read a Feast For Crows? In which Arya takes the reader on a tour of a devastated Westerosi countryside with death and orphaned children everywhere. Hell, Ned had a bug up his butt about the deaths of the Tragyrean/Martell children at the end of the sacking of Kingslanding, hell most of the kingdom did.

Why Doses a man like him say their is honor is some lies?

I never said R+L= nothing, I think R+L=J is just a flimsy theory based on a cultural bias toward chosen one/ birth right stories.

Does not Catlyin remember when asking Ned about Ashara Dayne was the only moment he scared her telling her (Catlyin) to Never asking him about Jon? Is Ned Stark that good of an actor? If R+L=J why not out right state Jon is his and Ashara's son have a solid cover story, Ashara Dayne is dead, the Daynes of Starfall respect Eddard Stark enough to name their heir Ned, but not enough to corroborate a cover-story to keep a child safe from a potentially wrathful king. After I might and the end of a war started by a wrathful king that after children?

 

This is a self-defeating line of reasoning. Martin is subject to those same cultural biases and consequently would be more likely to gravitate towards a chosen one/birth right narrative as a result. Were he to recognize and actively counteract said biases the case against R+L=J would probably be much stronger as that's the kind of thematic point authors tend to emphasize repeatedly.