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Kenobi A Vader vs Kenobi duel between eps 3 & 4 - Does it breaks canon?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Current and Future Shows' started by Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid, Jun 5, 2022.

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A Vader vs Kenobi duel between eps 3 & 4 - Does it breaks canon?

  1. No

  2. Yes

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Vader could still be referring to their overall history with one another rather than these two meetings they have in the Kenobi show. That also makes sense.
     
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  2. Psych_Jedi

    Psych_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2003
    I think it's too early in the Kenobi series to know for sure. Certainly one could make that argument after Obi-Wan 3, but there's still 3 episodes remaining (and who knows, maybe season 2 was always the plan but they hid it from us).
     
  3. Gavin_Skywalker

    Gavin_Skywalker Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2021
    No, the duel in Episode 3 does not break canon because we can assume that the reason Vader let Obi Wan get away is because he is still learning. Hence, that could cement the quote, “When I left you I was but a learner. Now I am the master.”
     
  4. Shaak Ti

    Shaak Ti Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    "When I left you I was but a learner. Now I am the master." -Vader
    "Only a master of evil, Darth." -Kenobi
    This exchange has always made sense to me regardless of how many times they meet after RotS. "left you" is about him leaving the Jedi order and becoming the enemy of Kenobi. The Tarkin quote is more difficult to explain. I would say hopefully they have good reason to assume Kenobi is dead after episode 6.
     
  5. starocean90

    starocean90 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2014
    Vader thinks Kenobi is still alive in Rebels but Palpatine says "perhaps, if he lives."


    I think Tarkin just assuming things.
    Sounds like only Vader seems convinced Kenobi is still alive
     
  6. Shaak Ti

    Shaak Ti Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Yeah, although Vader believing he is alive despite evidence to the contrary would also work well. That way Sidious and Tarkin are making sense, but Vader senses more than them
     
  7. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    100% Unequivocally breaks canon. We'll just edit Vader's line to "When I left you I was but the learner, and when I toyed with you instead of killing you ten years later, I was still the learner, but now, now I am the master. No really I am."

    How many duels before Vader stops being the learner? How many practice duels does he need before he can beat Obi-Wan, whom he is supposed to be more powerful than? And this isn't even touching on the episode that paints Obi-Wan as cowardly, and Vader as petty. Which breaks from their characterization throughout both the prequels and OT.

    So yes, this breaks canon. It lessens the importance and the gravity of their duel on the Death Star from Vader finally getting his revenge, and turns it into just another Jedi/Sith spat.
     
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  8. DannyD

    DannyD Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2017
    I think Tarkin's lines will make the same sense as they always have. i.e., he didn't and still doesn't care about Kenobi. Reasonable strategy, given the Jedi haven't risen up and challenged the Empire.

    How the tables turn!
     
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  9. SmokeMonster4815162342

    SmokeMonster4815162342 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2015
    If ANH was the first time they met after ROTS, it's way too impersonal, with no hatred from Anakin, nor shock or horror from Obi-wan. As much as I dislike the show, I'd say their new heated first meeting improves their story and makes the emotional discrepancy between ROTS and ANH more believable.

    And no, it doesn't break canon. Keep in mind, the meaning of this scene has already been 'retconned' after ROTS, which initially made it seem like Vader was Obi-wan's student when he left. We're just used to the new meaning of "learner", and we'll soon get used to the new meaning of "left you".
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  10. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I agree that it makes the confrontation in ANH make more sense. I feel like older Obi-Wan can't really be hurt by these things anymore. Maul is an old wound, but it's mostly Maul who is wounded (Obi-Wan has transcended). He says to Vader, "only the master of evil, Darth." This is someone who has recovered, transcended. Vader can no longer cause him any pain.

    In Kenobi series Vader was still acting like Obi-Wan is the "master" imo in that it's like he's looking for something from him. He's perplexed at how helpless and not master-like Obi-Wan is at the moment. It's almost like, Obi-Wan isn't being who Vader needs him to be to get his most satisfying revenge. He wants in his twisted way mb from Obi-Wan some kind of answer. "I am what you made me" rings w pain and blame. It's after this series that Vader will no longer need to look to Obi-Wan, he will be his own master and need nothing more. And it's after this series that mb Obi-Wan will accept what Vader is and come to terms with how it isn't really his fault. You can't save everyone.

    The pain both of them have for the broken relationship bt them is still hot but after this it will cool and Vader won't need Obi-Wan anymore as an answer to his suffering.

    Of all the contradictions/plot holes called out, really I don't think this is one at all. I think it may work beautifully. (In general I don't really think the contradictions/plot holes bt Kenobi and other Star Wars is that bad at all).
     
  11. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Going by this logic, the line should have been altered to "when you left me and I was on fire [...]" after ROTS anyway...
     
  12. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Like I said in the series discussion thread:
     
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  13. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    [face_laugh]

    Even though I still think it breaks the canon, to be objective, I have to post this :

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    After Maul was resurrected, he duels with Kenobi in Season 4 TCW Finale.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Kenobi loses this duel to Maul, and admits he and Ventress are no match for Maul and Savage. And they run.

    Obviously, Kenobi didn't stand in Maul's way in their last fight.

    Then in Season 5, Maul and Kenobi duels again,

    [​IMG]

    Maul says this:

    [​IMG]

    Kenobi didn't stand in Maul's way in their last fight. Maul won that. Just like Vader wasn't the learner in his last duel with Kenobi, and he won.

    Just like Maul was referring to their past duel on Naboo, Vader might be referring to their past duel on Mustafar. So Vader being the ''learner'' against Kenobi part can be explained like this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  14. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Well, if he doesn’t end up leaving Ben in some way in the series, then he is most definitely referring to when he betrayed him in ROTS, just like before OWK was made. And to my mind, that’s not a stretch at all.
     
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  15. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I think any time Vader calls himself "the master" it's kinda reflecting his need for validation of his arrogance thanks to the PT with how can he be on the council and NOT be given the rank of master. So the snarky "only the master of evil" line is more amusing after the Kenobi series. Arguably Vader isn't the "master" in ANH either as Obi-Wan disappears before his eyes after letting himself be killed and Vader can't explain it at all. It's wizardry beyond his understanding lol.
     
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  16. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Well no, Vader is never the master, but he likes to think he is.
    The line is also an echo of "My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count", which was not a factual statement (especially considering that the last time they met was probably only months earlier), just hot air.
     
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  17. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    It was like last Tuesday at that point!
     
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  18. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    When did Vader/Anakin refers to "leaving Obi-Wan" isn't he talking about when he left the Jedi and became a Sith? Isn't he always referring to their duel on Mustafar no matter how many duels they have/may have subsequently?

    If and ex wife says to her ex husband: When I left you, I was miserable, now I am happy. It doesn't matter how many interactions they have at subsequent family reunions, funerals, wedding...she is always referring to when she split up with him. No?

    @Lulu Mars
    Yep. I agree with this. Vader is talking about their acrimonious split (duel on Mustafar) and not about subsequent meetings. Anakin only left Obi-Wan once.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2022
  19. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Doesn't break canon, but I doubt I'll be thinking about that frontier town duel as having "really happened" the next time I watch ROTS and ANH in sequence.
     
  20. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    That's cool. I rarely think of Darth Vader ever "really being" Jake Lloyd's Anakin when I watch the OT. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2022
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  21. datatapes

    datatapes Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2016
    At first I thought it did break canon but having read the arguments, I think it probably doesn't, but it will be easier to make a final judgement after seeing the complete series.
    I guess on the whole this series doesn't break my head-canon as much I feared it might! I was uneasy when the series was first announced because I was afraid that Obi-Wan would be depicted running around having loads of adventures when he's meant to be in hiding. But this is just one adventure and he was very much dragged into it against his better judgement. He is genuinely trying to keep a low profile and hide out.
     
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  22. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    My lukewarm take on Obi-Wan has been counteracted by your statement of prequel dislike. Balance restored.
     
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  23. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    There is of course the possibility that their duel in Part VI will literally break a cannon.
     
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  24. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    This. Assuming we are correct, and in the end of this series Obi Wan "defeats" Vader in some way, I really kind of feel that now the duel in ANH could be viewed as kind of an "unfinished business" kind of thing, rather than just the first time meeting again in a long time (even though 9 years is actually quite a long time)...picking up where they left off so to speak-which honestly it does kind of feel that way already, the way that ANH duel interaction goes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2022
  25. Krueger

    Krueger Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2004
    They are almost certainly going to have another meeting before the series' end. It will either be a sort of tie, or Obi-Wan will just get the edge. You can bet your bottom dollar Obi-Wan will try to reach Anakin one last time, but leave feeling utterly convinced Anakin is no more and that Vader "killed" him. I think the big pay-off will be Obi-Wan making contact with Qui-Gon.

    Just like a lot of scenes and lines in SW have since 1980, the "When I left you I was but the learner" and "A presence I've not felt since" lines will either have new meaning or be open to new interpretations. Really, as SW fans we should be used to this. I really don't see the fuss. That's storytelling.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2022
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