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About the ban on mind rape

Discussion in 'Communications' started by FromDromundKaasWithLove, Mar 11, 2020.

  1. FromDromundKaasWithLove

    FromDromundKaasWithLove Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2020
    Hello, I'm FromDromundKaasWithLove. You may remember me from such threads as this one!

    I'm still fairly new to how this forum works so I'm hoping that I'm doing this right.

    This is about the term "mind rape" and how it has been disallowed in reference to the interrogation scene in the Force Awakens. It is a term that the filmmakers have used to describe the scene in question so, I feel that validates its usage in discussions pertaining to that scene.

    “A further discovery was a castle on a lake up in Scotland’s Isle of Skye. “And now we’re in a swashbuckling, medieval movie with knights and we’re finding Excalibur. And the next step is we actually get to go with Snow White out in a forest and the Dark Prince comes and puts her in a spell and carries her off. But then, when she’s being raped mentally, she’s able to fight him off and reverse the spell where he’s afraid.” – Rick Carter, production designer for the Force Awakens.

    “After the movie Daniel [Fleetwood] and I were able to give our reviews to JJ himself over the phone! Daniel was so funny and honest, and he did love the movie! One review he told JJ was: When Kylo is trying to use the force to read Reys mind, Daniel was drifting in and out and thought it was a rape scene in his mind. Turns out he was awake enough, he told JJ it seemed like a rape scene! I was mortified and apologized to JJ cause I didn’t get a sexual rape feel; turns out Daniel knew what he was talking about even with all that medication he was on, JJ said, well he is right, it is a violent mind rape. After talking with JJ Abrams they packed up and went back to California.” - Ashley Fleetwood
     
  2. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 ST/Anthology/Fan Films Manager taking a break star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Hi, @FromDromundKaasWithLove, I like your username!

    This is my opinion on this topic:
    Yes, "mind rape" has been used to describe the scene by people behind the scenes. However, "rape" is a loaded word, and shouldn't be used lightly. And this scene is, afterall a)not actually a rape scene, and b)ultimately a scene in a silly space movie.
    Let's not cheapen the the word, or downplay the seriousness of actual people's actual, horrific experiences by using it in this context, even if others have done so.

    There's also nothing to be gained by using that expression, when the scene can be described in a hundred different ways without using words such as "rape".
    At best calling it rape could be used as a way of shutting down discussion (it's not inviting to argue against someone using that word and risk being seen as insensitive, or worse), which would be counter productive for a discussion forum.
     
  3. FromDromundKaasWithLove

    FromDromundKaasWithLove Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2020
    Thank you :) I'm always terrible at picking a name for myself at a new forum so, I just use whatever springs into mind. Last time on a forum far, far away, my name was just a noise.

    I can definitely understand that and I agree. Part of the reason that I wanted to use it was because I'd seen people downplay what happens in the scene (in a way that reflects real-life) and it hit something of a personal spot with me due to, well, real life.

    It was one of the reasons that I was annoyed that the scene had been made so strongly reminiscent of rape. It's not something that should be used like that in a "silly space movie". There were people for whom the scene was so on point that it gave them flashbacks.

    To be clear, it is still okay to use the term torture, right?

    I can understand this as well. It was something of a problem on the old Bioware forums, especially regarding threads that was about mages.

    Thank you for your time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
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  4. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    It's definitely torture. I think to see it a rape requires some extra/added interpretation. Let me be clear, one can easily get there watching the scene. However, one can just as easily not. I wonder how much of this has to do with the fact that Rey (a female) is the victim. I mean, did viewers (who interpret it as analogous to rape) think this immediately when Poe Dameron was subjected to the mind probe?

    Also, is this the same mind type of mind probe that Vader subjected Leia to in ANH?
     
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  5. LAJ_FETT

    LAJ_FETT Tech Admin and Collecting/Lucasfilm Ltd Mod star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    May 25, 2002
    I'd like to see the term 'rape' only used to describe the actual crime or act - such as in a news article, for example. These forums are family friendly and users as young as 13 are allowed to post here. 'Torture' basically conveys the same message but without the sexual overtones.
     
  6. FromDromundKaasWithLove

    FromDromundKaasWithLove Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2020
    The way Rey's scene is handled is a lot different from how Poe and Leia's respective torture scenes are handled.



    With Poe, Kylo Ren remains fully masked and goes straight to interrogating and then torturing Poe.



    With Rey, Kylo Ren unmasks himself and menaces Rey, both verbally ("You know I can take whatever I want.") and emotionally; he invades Rey's personal space and rather than probe her mind for the relevant information, he probes her mind for her personal feelings - her fears - and exposits about them. It's only when that's done, that he moves on to actually search for the relevant information.

    Rey's body language: for the most part, she lies still, looks away and doesn't make any sounds beyond small ones. It's like she's trying to disassociate herself from the experience as it's happening.

    With Leia, the torture is implied, but never shown.



    Leia's scene is non-graphical and more befitting a children's film; the adults will understand what is happening while the children only need to understand the menacing feeling that the scene is conveying (something vaguely bad is about to happen to Princess Leia).

    Poe's scene is more graphical; his head is slammed back, he screams and he's clearly in pain - but it's played like an "ordinary" interrogation scene.

    Rey's scene has this uncomfortable level of forced intimacy, for the lack of a better description. It's all about her personal space invaded and having this level of intimacy (physical, psychological and emotional) forced upon her. Basically, she's being made vulnerable in every way by her captor who is doing for no other reason but his personal amusement or curiosity.

    It's not an ordinary interrogation scene, even in-universe where the difference between it and Poe's interrogation scene becomes very obvious when you compare the two.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
  7. Dandelo

    Dandelo Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014

    could not have said it better myself.

    exactly.
    I've seen it hinted (not necessarily on these forums though) that fans of Reylo must not care about or even advocate the R word in a feeble attempt to gain the upper hand and make the other person feel like poop.

    I myself can take or leave Reylo as a concept. I can see arguments for and against....but even if he makers of the ST DID use the words 'mind rape' themselves, well, that is very poor judgement on their part imo.
     
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  8. FromDromundKaasWithLove

    FromDromundKaasWithLove Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2020
    I know this sounds harsh, but quite frankly, I actually think I'd consider it irresponsible on their part as well. I think the filmmakers were going for that very common thing where villains menace female characters in a different way from how they'd menace male characters. You know, the old "I have you now, my pretty" kind of thing that can, and often do, go into creepy territory.

    That thing can be bad enough, but it's taken to a very uncomfortable degree in the Force Awakens where it gains that sexual assault vibe. It's not appropriate for this kind of children's film. It even took some people out of the film because it was too on point.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
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  9. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    And this makes all the difference, right? It still boils down to audience interpretation. Vader is essentially guilty of the same tactic. Yet here we are 40+ years after the fact, and no one is positing that Vader "mind raped" Leia.
     
  10. Dandelo

    Dandelo Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    think it's the words

    "you know I can take what I want"

    take these words out and I think the context of the scene changes somewhat.

    However to get back on topic, if the term 'mind rape' has been banned I'm all for it, if terms such as Mary Sue and Gary Stu have, it's only correct this has too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
  11. FromDromundKaasWithLove

    FromDromundKaasWithLove Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2020
    Actually, Darth Vader tortured Leia by using an interrogation droid, not the force. The whole point of including that example is to show a scene where torture is conveyed in a non-graphical manner, but still maintains its menace without giving the scene certain connotations.

    Poe's scene is an example of torture (and the mind rape) being shown in a graphical way that, nonetheless, still manages to avoid the connotations that is present throughout Rey's scene.

    It is not the mind rape itself that creates these connotations: it is the way that Rey's scene is written and acted that creates them. Again, look at the many differences between Poe's scene and Rey's scene.

    The words are part of it, but even if they were to be removed, all the other stuff would still remain so while the context would change somewhat, it would still nonetheless remain more or less the same.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
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  12. Dandelo

    Dandelo Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    after reading the thread in question...I stand corrected.

    you should watch a show called The Gifted, in it there are triplets that do all sorts of mind probing, you could argue on the same level or worse than Kylo, I don't see any uproar there.
    Why? because it's silly (but good) fiction....like SW.
    Us mere homo-sapiens cannot go around mind-whatever you wanna say telepathically, so it's stupid rage over nothing...imo.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
  13. FromDromundKaasWithLove

    FromDromundKaasWithLove Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2020
    Thank you for your belittlement. I have decided not to dignify this particular post of yours. I feel this is no loss since you are addressing arguments that I have never made; for example, that humans are capable of telepathy.

    Have a nice day.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
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  14. Dandelo

    Dandelo Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 25, 2014
    I apologize if you took my post as belittling, was not my intent.
    I was merely trying to explain this kind of scene is not unique to SW.
     
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  15. FromDromundKaasWithLove

    FromDromundKaasWithLove Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2020
    Thank you, I'm glad that wasn't your intent. I enjoy discussions, but I have very little patience for engaging with posters that seem to ridicule my posts (or person) because any discussions with them generally don't end up being productive or that enjoyable. To make sure I don't lose interest in participating on forums or that participating becomes unpleasant, I've made it a general rule not to engage with such posters.

    My points has never been that the mind rape was unique to Star Wars nor that it sparked outrage.

    Here are my "points":

    Rey's scene is not handled as an ordinary interrogation scene, even within the confines of its own film; Poe's scene, which happens in the same film, is handled like an ordinary interrogation. I have already gone into details about how it differs and posted the relevant videos so people can see the differences firsthand.

    I don't think the way Rey's scene was written is appropriate for a family friendly Star Wars film because, whether intentional or not by the filmmakers, the scene has connotations that are comparable to sexual assault, something that does not seem to have escaped the filmmakers judging by the quotes that I have posted at the beginning of this thread. According to Ashley Fleetwood, JJ Abrams said that yes, it is a violent mind rape, and Rick Carter has referred to it as Rey being mentally raped.

    Additionally and importantly, these connotations makes the film unpleasant for some members of the audience in a way that is unnecessary because connotations don't serve any real purpose. The subsequent films make their inclusion even more unfortunate.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
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  16. Dandelo

    Dandelo Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014

    now this is where we agree.
    Was poor form on the filmmakers part.

    However I don't really see any technical differences between Poe and Reys, they were both telepathic in nature, both were strapped to a gurney.
    The only difference from what I can see is Kylo's insidious line before hand. Which should probably have been removed.
     
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  17. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    You are right. Ren says, "You know I can take what I want." I don't deny, taken out of context, this can be interpreted to sound like rape/abuse. Yet, what do the words mean in context?

    In context, Ren is literally talking about extracting information from her mind (the map to Skywalker) from her mind. He is not, in fact, talking about her assaulting her sexually, taking her virginity, etc. Yes, he is asserting his power over her. He is violating her mind. He is claiming that she cannot resist him. Yet, this is the same (in universe situation) as Poe Dameron. Whether an audience reads it as "rape" is up to the individual audience member, and can be a valid reading. Yet, I don't think it's widely accepted as THE ONLY reading of this scene, hence why the analogy is so inflammatory and is banned. Star Wars space voodoo/mind torture is just that, and to claim otherwise minimizes actually rape and victims of sexual abuse/assault.

    Hmmm. I'm not so sure. When are we ever provided the details of how Vader utilizes a mind probe? The most detailed account I can think of is the Radio Drama. It's been years since I've listened to it, but Vader is there forcefully coercing information out of Leia.

    I don't disagree, yet the connotations are drawn by some individuals, and not by all. I would think that, if it were definitively viewed by all as a rape analogous scene, there would have been a backlash against the film....especially considering the target audience.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
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  18. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    I will respect whatever the rules of the forum are. The only suggestion I have is that if "mind rape" is not a permitted word/phrase, perhaps it could be added to the banned words list so that everyone is aware of that policy.
     
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  19. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    No one reads that thing anyway. I didn’t even know it was a thing until two years after I joined and I thought I read all of TOS.

    I do agree that it shouldn’t be said. But I don’t think adding it to the disallowed words list is going to help.
     
  20. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 19, 2019
    Fair enough. I guess I'm just a person who likes to have everything in writing as the saying goes.
     
  21. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    It's not just the words, it's about how this term was being thrown around casually as "hahaha" attacks on Ren/Rey, etc.
     
  22. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Then include the words with examples of how not to use it would be my advice.
     
  23. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 ST/Anthology/Fan Films Manager taking a break star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    "Rape" is not a disallowed word, though, as long as it is used when actually applicable, as @LAJ_FETT pointed out.
    The ban on "mind rape" is within the confines of New Films - specifically Sequel Trilogy (it might be banned in other sections as well; I'm sure the mods there can let us know) . There are general rules for the Jedi Council forums, but each individual forum has its own set of rules as well.
    But point taken on making such things clearer. I'll bring it up with the rest of the ST mods.
     
  24. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 19, 2019
    Thank you for the further clarification, and that is true that each set of forums has its own rules as well so this seems more specific to a subset of the forums. That makes a lot of sense.
     
  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I mentioned this in New Films—describing the scene exactly as it takes place is sufficient enough for the horror of it, and throwing out another descriptor that just leads to an argument over whether the descriptor is technically accurate derails the topic.

    And yeah, there are terms banned in some forums but not others because forums have different atmospheres.
     
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