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Senate Going Postal: The 2020 U.S. Presidential Election

Discussion in 'Community' started by Point Given , Nov 9, 2018.

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  1. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2017
    @dp4m check my post with the numbered points, that's where 3smir and I got started
     
  2. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001
    Yeah, still unclear -- you still seem to be saying Trump's victory is better for the Progressives to be able to influence policy than if Biden wins. The numbers post just deals with voters and Nader, but doesn't provide insight into the later point you seem to make...
     
  3. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    It seems to be some kind of argument that one more loss will finally delegitimize the less progressive wing of the Democratic Party, such that his preferred partisans can sweep into power and deliver "real" change. You know, very much like the argument he always mocks that defeating Trump will finally delegitimize the radical wing of the Republican Party, such that moderates can sweep back into power and return to the functional business of government.

    I would kind of think either both theories are silly or neither of them are, but, you know.
     
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  4. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2017
    @dp4m I don't know what you mean by policy but that's not what I'm talking about. My theory is that it will be easier for progressives/leftists to run insurgent candidates and unseat centris Democrats under a second Trump term than under a Biden administration, because many of the current gatekeepers will be booted out or marginalized.

    I don't remember ever hearing this argument nor mocking it. Are you just imagining whatever you want now?
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
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  5. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001
    Despite all evidence to the contrary of Trump's first term? AOC was the only one, and Sharice Davids flipped a Republican seat on her own, without Our Revolution, etc.
     
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  6. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 27, 2017
    Here's Noam Chomsky making my point better than I could ever do.

    My admiration for this man cannot be overstated.


     
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  7. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2017
    I think a second Trump victory will cause a crisis of confidence in the Pelosi/Schumer/Schiff/Nadler echelon and the liberal establishment. Their grip will relax when their anti-Trump project collapses. The political climate will be very different from 2018.
     
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  8. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Honestly is the judiciary, and the significant impact it has, simply irrelevant?
     
  9. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    This is Biden's entire argument. He thinks it is reasonable to try and negotiate with Republicans because their defeat will sweep away the radicals and allow the return of people who are reasonable to negotiate with. That's the whole point of the "break the fever" rhetoric for which you all have repeatedly excoriated him.
     
  10. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    It's just more of the "Less Bad" argument and it doesn't motivate people to vote. It was probably the most compelling reason to vote for HRC and she lost.
     
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  11. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2017
    Your mistake is in assuming the radical/establishment conflicts within the GOP and Democtrats are analogous. They're not, they're very different dynamics, and I don't believe I've ever claimed otherwise. Respond to what I write please, not what you imagine me to believe.
     
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  12. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Yeah I realise that it's not very compelling, but we've got arguments here against voting for Biden and that Trump winning would be better.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  13. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 27, 2017
    Actually, so far Glitterstimm has been the only one who proposed an actual argument against voting for Biden, in the sense of "Biden winning over Trump would be bad for this precise reason". Everyone else was rather making a case about personal principles/moral values rather than a comparison of the two possible outcomes (Biden winning vs Trump winning). Which is fine, btw, personal principles are also important, I'm just not very sensible to them.
     
  14. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2017
    Just to be clear, I'm not 100% convinced that a Biden defeat would be better for leftist politics than a victory. I think it would be better, but I could be wrong. I started this line of argument because 3smir proposed a Biden administration would be susceptible to pressure from the Democrats' left wing, and I think that's naive. He simply will not be an effective ally at all, both because he himself is not a dominant political force like Trump and Obama, and because the party's centrist establishment will still be dead-set on preventing leftist insurgencies. If the Democrats had already undergone a kind of Tea Party movement resulting in a Freedom Caucus style bloc which could solicit demands from the leadership, but with AOC-style progressives (it's not a good analogy because the Tea Party was largely an astro-turf campaign, but this is just another hypothetical), then maybe I'd be inclined to vote for Biden. But right now there is no substantial faction within the party representing my political interests.

    Edit: Let me put it this way: When Steny Hoyer gets unexpectedly unseated by an insurgent leftist, like Eric Cantor got beaten by a Tea Party lunatic, then I'll think it's safe to vote for a Biden-type.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
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  15. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    Well, as I stated earlier, I'm not trying to convince you not to vote for Biden, as that's simply not something I expect a liberal to do. What I am attempting to do is nudge you leftward yourself, and if you radicalize, you yourself will not vote for Biden.
     
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  16. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    That's always a fair admonishment. But doesn't this self-same post affirm that you do indeed believe in this thing about collapsing the authority of the current power-holders? That's not me mistaking you're argument. It's an accurate summary of what you believe.

    What you're referring to here is your rationale for why you think the two cases are different. Which, fine, you are welcome to make that case. That doesn't imply there's an error in noting the facial similitude between the two arguments.
     
  17. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    AOC defeating Joe Crowley was pretty wild.
     
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  18. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001
    Yeah, but it was the only one... and she looks a helluva lot more like her district than Crowley did.
     
  19. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2017
    You were trying to put words in my mouth, that was your error. You assumed that I believed the radica/establishment divides within the two parties were the same, when I never said that, and called me a hypocrite for it.

    If you want to say the two scenarios have a "facial similtude" then go for it. I mean, they're all wearing the same suits, so sure.

    Yeah but Hoyer would be a much, much bigger shock imo. Again, if there was a leftist faction within the House which could pressure Pelosi then I might be willing to vote for Biden, but we haven't seen that yet.
     
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  20. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Well yeah those were the arguments to which I was referring.
     
  21. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    I'm not a fan of the whole "brown people only vote for brown people" thing
     
  22. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001
    No, but when the district is 50% Hispanic and there's an old white dude representing -- and white people are less than 20% of that district -- then yes, I think that representation matters.

    I wouldn't presume to assume what specific things may affect my fellow 10th District folks who don't look like me -- I don't have their lived experiences.

    EDIT: Also, in fairness, less than 5 percent of the district voted in the primary... so the people that cared actually apparently cared about her...
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  23. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2017
    So Joe Crowley's big mistake was being white? Sounds like boomer logic.
     
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  24. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    THIS,

    Most Americans don't vote. We are in a bubble of people who care about and pretend to themselves that they have a role in politics. That is not reflective of most americans

    Go lecture the majority of americans instead of us, that's a larger base

    Not to mention, picking Biden does not stop fascism. Can we stop with this liberal, historically inept stuff? Liberals put Hitler in power, it was not through inaction of revolutionaries and socialists. leftists had been the main threat to Hitler, that's why he killed them first, and that's why they had formed groups like Antifaschistische Aktion

    The fear-mongering "trump will push the hitler button any second now" is built on a simplification of both Hitler and Trump, as well as an ignorance of the culpability of lackadaisical liberal institutions
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
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  25. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    I never commented on what you thought about the two dynamics at all. What I said is on the same page as your post for anyone to read. It was strictly about the outcomes you were proposing.

    Though in fact, broaching that topic, your argument doesn't really explain anything. Yes there are differences in the strength of the factions in their respective parties. But in both cases you are just proposing that an electoral will spark a loss of power for the ideological faction currently most prominent in each party. There's nothing in what you've offered thus far to explain why the outcomes should differ by party. If anything, one could reasonably argue that the increased prominence of the GOP radicals could make their loss even more devastating, not less, as they would have more clearly born responsibility for the outcome.
     
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