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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode IX

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Ben-Solo, Dec 12, 2017.

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  1. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    And yet Luke will return in some fashion. I feel Snoke will as well. Kylo will need more characters to play off of than just Hux (as great as those interactions are!). Maybe through some sort of further Snoke/Kylo scenes/whatnot we can learn how Snoke corrupted Kylo and what’s driving Kylo now. (I had thought it was hate and anger at his family but now I think it must be something else.)
     
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  2. The PiedPiper of Alderaan

    The PiedPiper of Alderaan Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 16, 2015
    Kylo Ren/Ben Solo's fate seems still uncertain...alive? dead? light? darkness?...the young man we see before the 3rd act isnt purely evil, you can almost sympathize with him. And he's being so honest with Rey with his feelings that even if he did wrong and chose the wrong path he's not the ultimate enemy..

    BUT...when confronting Luke he seems to have gone fully evil, ready to kill his uncle, even menacing Rey in his speech ...but talking about Rey is he just unleashing his anger? Coz when she shut down the Falcon's door on him (force-skyping) he seems hurt.

    So 2 questions for you guys to perhaps help me figure it out coz i dont remember every scene perfectly:

    -When found lying on the floor by Hux, is he faking it and actually let Rey leave? That's what i remember from the movie but could be wrong...

    -When he talks about forgetting about jedi, sith and resistance does he mention the FO too? The empire?
     
  3. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Yeah I could see Ghost Force Luke appearing to Rey as she's feeling overwhelmed with the burden of trying save the Resistance.

    You raise a good point about Kylo not having other characters to play off. Presumably that was going to be Leia. I still think they could possibly include Leia. Perhaps they use some of Carrie Fisher's audio from past movies as a way to show that Ben is hearing her? Or maybe a dream sequence? Dreams can be surreal. Maybe Ben has a dream where Leia appears and she's represented by a little girl. I say that only so they could avoid a recasting controversy. Maybe these dreams would be Force dreams that a now dead Leia is using to communicate with Ben from the great beyond?

    Snoke I think is gone for good. I always considered him more of a plot device than a fully formed character so I wasn't terribly surprised that he was dispatched of, (though in the heat of the moment it was a pretty shocking scene). I'm intrigued to learn why Ben turned since I also assumed it was his hatred of his family which it apparently isn't, and yes it seems like Snoke returning in some form or another, (flashbacks?) could fill in those details but my gut tells me Snoke won't be seen again and sadly we might not learn too much about Ben fall. Not sure why I feel that way. I just do.

    I hope I'm wrong about not finding out more about Ben's fall. It does seem like a key story point they should explain. It's just hard to imagine how they could bring that up in the narrative. Who would Ben be sharing this info with? I guess we could see Ben having a dream about being turned by Snoke, (yep I'm talking about dreams again), but why would that still be on his mind all these years later? What would prompt him to start thinking about that now? I guess they could have more Forcetime scenes with Ben and Rey though I thought the closing of the Falcon ramp was a signal their Forcetime conversations are over. I guess they could talk in person?
     
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  4. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    I thought he really was unconscious and his um Force instincts kicked in because Hux was standing over him drawing his blaster, so Kylo woke up. What I want to know is if Kylo consciously knew that Hux was about to shoot him in that moment. What do you think?

    No he does not mention the FO or the Empire. His "new order" seems to very much involve heading the FO. I think he would run the FO differently, but considering this is Mr. Kill Them All from TFA, I am not sure he will run it any better.
     
  5. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    I LOVE the idea of Leia appearing to Kylo in a dream as a child!

    As a viewer...I feel I need more insight into Kylo’s history to feel sympathetic towards him.
     
  6. Rodie

    Rodie Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 16, 2014
    Interesting idea. What if Kylo's dream is a "flashback of sorts"...We see Ben Solo at age 14 or something, and talking to him in the scene is his mother Leia, also at age 14, so they can cast a young girl who looks like young Leia in this one scene. Might feel too Matrixy...Or it could be cool. Maybe Millie Bobby Brown would do a cameo.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  7. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Thanks! Yeah the more I think about Leia as a dream kid the more I love it. You could maybe have Ben dreaming about when he was a kid and met Snoke and somehow incorporate Dream Leia in there. It's a win-win. You get some Ben backstory, some Ben/Leia time and some Snoke time.

    If they went the Dream Leia route I wonder if it would be best if Ben knows right off the bat that this little girl is Leia or if maybe he finds out later? If he finds out later that could be when it's revealed to Ben and the audience that Leia's dead? The trick would be how to have Ben talk to this random girl about his relationship with Leia while not making it obvious that the little girl IS Leia. Seems like it could be a powerful moment if Dream Leia allows Ben to have some emotional breakthrough but then hot on the heals of that emotional wallop he's devastated to learn that his mother is dead. Also this tees up a great opportunity for Dream Leia to say, "I am your mother." That might be a bit much though.
     
  8. Ruffmeian

    Ruffmeian Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 19, 2015
    I don’t think it really works that way— using the force to bring yourself out of unconsciousness? At least, I’ve never gotten that impression. In the PT we saw Obi-Wan knocked out and dragged around by Anakin, so while it would be useful, I think Kylo woke when he woke. Had he suspected Hux of anything, he wouldn’t have held back from killing him.
     
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  9. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Well we're two thirds of the way through the trilogy and we still haven't learned specifically why Ben Solo fell to the dark side. Yes we know that Snoke was involved and yes we know that Luke accidentally pushed Ben over the edge but we still don't why Ben was tempted in the first place.

    When Ben first encountered Snoke did he know Snoke was evil from the get go and yet still willingly went along with him or did Snoke present himself as a benevolent being who slowly seduced Ben so gradually that Ben didn't realize he was heading down the dark path?

    It'll be interesting to see how much of a choice Ben had in his fall to the dark side. Was he a victim or a willing participant? Did he know he was dabbling in darkness but thought he was strong enough to resist the temptations of the dark side? Why would he chose to train with Snoke when he's being trained by his uncle who is Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight?!?!

    But getting back to the main question of why Ben fell, it's hard to imagine what the reason might be. Initially I thought it was because he hated his parents but I no longer believe that. Maybe it's the opposite? Ben adored his parents but maybe being the son of two legendary people made Ben feel like he needed to also aspire to the same level of greatness so he decided to try and become a powerful Jedi Knight. Then Snoke got involved and promised Ben more control of his power than even Luke could provide? I don't know...I'm not crazy about that theory. It doesn't seem to carry a lot of emotional punch. Ben turned evil because of his overzealous ambition? Ugh...is Snoke basically a corny metaphor for performance enhancing drugs? There's got to be a better reason than that!
     
  10. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    Exhibit A of the argument that the ST’s mysteries have yet to be fully resolved (or even mostly resolved, imo).

    I just wish TLJ had really delved into Kylo’s deal, and showed us what was left to Snoke exposition...
     
  11. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Indeed. I guess they thought that TLJ was about providing an answer to Rey's backstory and Ep. 9 would be Kylo's turn? That's my hope at least. There are a lot of little questions that TFA and TLJ have proposed that I don't need answers for but what made Ben Solo turn to the dark side is the one question they should definitely answer.

    I don't need to know how Maz got Rey's lightsaber. I don't need to know why Rey is as powerful as she is. I don't need to know everything Luke was up to for the last 30 plus years, I don't need to see Finn lead a stormtrooper revolt and I don't need to see Rey lead a platoon of Force sensitive Resistance fighters but I do need to know why the son of Leia and Han Solo would turn to the dark side and turn on his family.
     
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  12. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    Except that, according to RJ, even that hasn’t been resolved yet. Otherwise, RJ wouldn’t be talking about how Kylo could’ve been wrong, or how one must consider the context in which the information was given, or how it could have been a “facpov” situation. Nor would the movie have made a point about how warped Kylo’s perception of reality can be.

    I think we’re supposed to still be wondering about quite a bit. TLJ doesn’t actually subvert everything; it just appears to. Again - the salt runs only skin-deep ;)
     
  13. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    *sticks fingers in ears* Lalalalalala I can't hear you! Rey's parentage has been settled! :D
     
  14. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Chosen One star 4

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    Sep 20, 2001
    I think ultimately Ben's fall is ultimately about how there is darkness inside each of us. Nothing sinister. But none of us are imperfect light beings. We each carry a darkness within. Some of us succeed better than others at preventing the darkness from consuming us. Some of us fail.

    The question arises when Luke considered murdering him is the purity test that he contemplated when deciding whether or not to murder him: how much darkness is acceptable?

    With the dichotomy drawn with the polar opposites of Jedi and Sith, either tolerates ANY of the opposite Force affiliation. Was Luke tolerant of ANY darkness in Ben, or was the presence of any inherent darkness something that made him worthy of death?

    I think there is growing paradigm shift when it comes to Force theology moving forward in this saga, and I suspect that Luke finally realized it as he found Peace and Purpose. There is no such thing as absolute light or absolute dark. One simply cannot align with one polar side and forsake an entire part of their being. It's like eye color or sexual orientation: You can hide it and mask it, but it never inherently changes.

    When Ben Solo awoke to his uncle standing over him with a drawn lightsaber, it doesn't really matter if Luke had changed his mind and wasn't going to harm him, Ben's lot was cast. When the dust settled on his fight or flight response, Ben saw nothing but rejection. In that moment his uncle had rejected whom Ben inherently was--a combination of light and dark. It didn't matter if he had never acted on those darker urges or not. Judgement had been cast regardless. His duality of light and dark was not acceptable under the Jedi code.

    Of course he was going to seek out the guidance of the dark dude whispering in his ear. His first master rejected him, so he sought answers for the one offering to accept him.

    So I personally don't see Ben's fall and the reasons behind that journey to Snoke as important as much as what we get at the end of TLJ: Ben Solo never lived up to the expectations of either master. Both Luke and Snoke saw him as a failure.

    His story is compelling not because of a fall but rather the question arises: where does he truly belong? If he renounces the dark, he is forsaking an entire part of himself. We heard his screams in his sleep and light and dark battled during the flashback of the night his uncle thought of killing. But if he tries to extinguish the light, he continues to feel torn apart and isolated.

    Not fitting in either world, with one foot in each. That is who Ben Solo is. His story is fascinating because he has yet to find his footing and sense of belonging in the universe. That is why he continues to fail as a true villain but isn't quite as "good" as we expect for a hero either. His story isn't about turning from absolute darkness to absolute light. In my opinion that is not possible. Rather his journey lies in how he resolves both sides of himself to stop the inner conflict, to stop feeling like he is being torn apart. His journey and why so many fans are drawn to his character is how does he find that journey toward inner peace and reconciliation. It's why killing the villain or creating a new hero is not compelling to me. Neither is attainable, but there appears to be a third path he has not yet explored, and in it could be the most satisfying journey for that character.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  15. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    Yes, Kylo ;)

    (RJ sure disagrees with an awful lot Kylo believes, or wants to believe, doesn’t he?)
     
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  16. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    I hear where you're coming from and dig a lot of the points you're touching on but I still can't shake wanting to know why Ben was already filled with so much darkness by the time Luke paid him a bedside visit. I get that he (and people in general) are all a mix of light and dark but something pulled Ben into the darkness more than most people experience and I really want to know what that was. It's especially puzzling when it appears that he didn't hate his parents and seemingly had a decent childhood. He tells Rey he didn't hate Han. Ostensibly he doesn't hate his mother as he couldn't bring himself to kill her. So why go dark? Why did he worship his grandfather? Just because?
     
  17. Darth Gummybear

    Darth Gummybear Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 15, 2016
    I do not think Johnson has cast doubt on Kylo's vision of Rey's parents in the movie itself. Johnson said Kylo believed what he saw and Rey believed it too.

    What Johnson said is JJ Abrams is doing Ep. 9 so he could not discount the possibility of twists or changes based on the "certain POV" reference we saw in the OT. That is very different from saying Johnson cast doubt on Kylo's claim about Rey's parents in the movie itself.

    I think there could very well be more to the story of Rey's history and parents that could come out in Ep. 9, but I do not think that means Abrams will retcon the story of her being abandoned by random parents and make her a lost Skywalker or Solo child no one knew about. That would upend the entire trilogy and render a lot of the plot and its themes nonsensical.
     
  18. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    Kylo honestly believed he saw a murderous, demonic-looking Luke about to cut him in two with his lightsaber. Don’t think that was what actually happened, either...

    Strongly disagree with your last assertion.
     
  19. Darth Gummybear

    Darth Gummybear Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 15, 2016
    You believe Ep. 9 could retcon Rey's backstory to make her a long lost Skywalker or Solo child?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  20. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    If she is one, I don’t believe it will be a retcon. “Retcon” implies that Kylo was actually correct.
     
  21. Darth Gummybear

    Darth Gummybear Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 15, 2016
    You seem to think that Kylo being wrong is a foregone conclusion. Maz indicated the same thing to her.

    There is a middle ground. Kylo may have not had the entire story, but Rey is still a random child (meaning not a lost Skywalker or Solo). I think there is a big difference between "Vader killed your father" actually being "Vader is your father" versus "You came from nothing" actually being "you come from the Skywalkers." The first example makes sense since Vader "destroyed" his old persona Anakin, but the second is not just a different POV, it is an entirely different reality.

    I think making Rey a legacy child at this point would be a retcon. It does not fit the story.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  22. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    “You came from nothing” is factually incorrect unless Rey spontaneously burst into existance.

    If, however, we’re talking about Rey’s parents being “nobodies”...

    Have you read LoLS? Luke Skywalker could stroll into a crowded cantina and hang around for hours without being revognized. He asked the Republic for nothing and was very poor. In fact, one story indicates that he was familiar with salvaging junk.

    In other words....Luke may have been a “legend,” but he was also, in essence, a “nobody,” and he lived like a “nobody.”
     
  23. Darth Gummybear

    Darth Gummybear Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 15, 2016
    Kylo said nothing as in nobody because her parents (as he saw them) were inconsequential people. I do not think the movie painted Luke as nothing or nobody regardless of what a novel of short stories highlighting his nomadic existence may have implied about him being familiar with salvaging junk.

    If you think that nobody actually means Luke, we will have to agree to disagree. I don't know what to say except that Abrams is going to have a hell of time twisting that especially since Luke did not recognize Rey and it will be quite bizarre how his daughter ended up with junkers on Jakku.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  24. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Oh I dunno - TLJ did a pretty good job of depicting Luke as a reclusive, scruffy old curmudgeon. Rey arrived expecting a “somebody” (a “legend”!) and was awful disappointed by what she found.

    (One of those short stories depicts Luke learning how to do that odd “spear fishing” thing, btw.)

    So “facpov” absolutely applies :) Though I suspect our intepretations of what we saw in the movie overall vary quite a bit. Not really surprising among we SW fans these days! The degree to which the fandom is divided in interpreting this movie puts TFA analysis to shame....
     
  25. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Half baked theory that I'm not sure even I like: In Ep. 9 the Resistance have been hiding undetected for months and Kylo is secretly cool with it because if they're found and defeated he won't have a sense of purpose anymore. Either that or we'll learn that he and Rey have been meeting in secret. To what end? I don't know. I'm just spit balling.
     
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