ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode IX

No lightsabres.

 

Arguably, the First Order does have its origins on Coruscant as they are an extension of the Empire. Like in real life, it is an ideology that was once popular throughout but eventually lost favor with most of society and got exiled to the fringes.

As hero and villain, they are mirror images of each other like they've been depicted in several marketing materials before. Anything else is overthinking it.

 

Well that's another problem, the Galactic Empire weren't really all that fascist, at least not according to Eco's definition. They were more like a simple military dictatorship that took over a colonial empire. Palpatine, as we see him in the PT and as he publicly expresses his politics, is not really a fascist at all, because he never incorporates a cultural criticism of Republic society. Rather, he seems to be a conservative elitist, *before* he takes power.

So this isn't to say that some disillusioned kids and ex-imperials couldn't form their own movement, but it doesn't make sense that it would happen outside of New Republic society, which is presumably the liberal culture they are rebelling against. So why don't they talk about Coruscant? When JJ went with the "Nazis in Argentina invade the world with a secret army" trope, what he failed to realize is that's a totally fictional and absurd premise to begin with whereas Star Wars politics has always been relatively grounded even though there is Magic, aliens, etc. And so he's made a bunch of characters who have the ironic distinction of being fascists by our irl standards, but in the fictional universe are just some weird, inexplicably industrious, cultists. It's another example where he expects us to assume that the characters are operating on the same "meta" level that we are, that like Rey, they are fan girls/boys who literally know everything about Star Wars.

If you're interested, I'd highly recommend reading Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism, which is the essay Ellis uses to define fascism as she analyzes the First Order. It famously concludes with the 14 characteristics of fascism, which have become wildly popular for starting politics conversations in post-Trump America. To summarize, I think the conclusion is that the First Order are sort of, kind of fascist, like they may have some tendencies, but are not full blown fascist. They just aren't complex enough, and calling them that reduces the term to the point where it could mean anything.

 

That 'bit of information' Driver has known since the beginning...

Notably, 'why is the force connecting us?' is not in the TLJ novelization. Maybe it was in the script; or maybe Driver suggested it, putting the 'bit of information' in the take. Ben, thought Driver, was reminded of something.

Also:

 

Maybe Kylo and his knights are out to destroy the Sith and not actually a part of them. Maul(and The Son) and Mortis Anakin were out to destroy the Sith and their armies and anything that stood in their way, which included Jedi.

 

From Galaxy's Edge issue #2

 

Yeah, this is an interesting point. I mean, much as the Empire were clearly pretty goddamn evil from the top ranks, "fascist" does seem like a bit of a problem as a definition given Palpatine left the Senate existing for 19 years and they still seemed at least somewhat of a problem/threat for him in ANH. I always got the sense as a kid that the Emperor was probably some kind of racist with the EU books, but that all went out the window with the prequels. Hard to make that case when we see his right-handers in the PT as aliens, and apparently given the supplementary stuff they were there all through the Galactic War years.

Dictator? Totally. But definitely seems he never kind of consolodated it entirely during the pre-trilogy years the way Hitler or Stalin did. He went two decades with a senate still having a say, no matter how he happened to be manipulating them. Prior to R1/ANH, pretty easy to see how systems would be on board with the guy before he's dissolving the elected parliament and blowing up planets. As clearly awful as that is, it's 20 years after he took power. That first 20 years it's a little gray-area in terms of the various systems supporting the dude.

Regarding the FO, that far after the Galactic Empire, though, they're totally fascists, that's not even a question. The Empire's iffy for a whole 20 years, but the FO is something else. They're clearly not keeping any pretense of voting, they're ruled by a single guy, and coming out with a very clear desire of unseating the democratically-elected government by force. Awful as Palpatine is, that's something he never did with his Empire, he just stacked the chess pieces over the long game so as the people's democratically-appointed representatives would vote for it. And even left those democratically-appointed politicians there for a whole 19 years or so. That's sort of a whole other level - equally evil, but working within the legitimate system. Nothing Palpatine did in the prequels was necessarily undemocratic, skeezy and evil as it was. The FO? They're full-on about cutting the head off the democratic snake and taking power by force. Which is what intrigues me about this Palpatine-being-back stuff, if that's the case his new tack, his new desperation, even-more-ruthlessness, is super-interesting. Using Snoke as an unwitting/unknowing pawn to some new approach at power, I frickin' love that conceptually.

 

I'm really trying to wrap my head around this whole situation with Kylo's helmet getting repaired. I can understand why the film makers would want to bring it back if they have old unused footage of a Kylo and Leia encounter that they want to use, or if they want to indicate that the end of the TFA Forceback was supposed to be a foreshadowing of an encounter Kylo and Rey will eventually have in TROS, but other than that it seems like repairing it in this next film is going against the character progression that was established in TLJ. TLJ indicated that he was hiding his identity and inner conflict behind the mask, and after he shattered it in anger he went the rest of the film confidently leading the FO without it. How are they going to explain the need for it's repair, and the need for him to wear it again despite its completely cracked appearance?

Where did the helmet actually come from in the first place? My initial thought was that it was given to Kylo by Snoke. Since it was supposed that the KOR served Snoke, and the helmet appears to be fashioned after their style of armor. Almost like it was given to Kylo upon his joining their ranks. But Snoke's comments about the helmet in TLJ seem to indicate he doesn't like Kylo having or using it. If that's the case, who picked up the pieces from Snoke's turbolift and kept them from getting tossed in the trash like Captain Phasma? Snoke wouldn't have ordered that it seems. Maybe the same "loyal storm-trooper" who saved it from SB also picked it up from the turbolift? Do the KOR have armor caddies? It was obviously gone by the time Rey and Kylo rode that same tubrolift up to Snoke later in the film.

Perhaps even though Snoke didn't want Kylo wearing it, he did sense some power in it, so he had the pieces stashed with his personal possessions aboard his personal shuttle, which Rey supposedly took after fleeing the Supremacy. Maybe it isn't the Kylo or the KOR who seek to have it repaired, but Rey and company. Come to think of it, I guess that Rey and Chewy have Snoke's ship stashed somewhere since the next time we see Rey after the saber cracks is when she and Chewy show up in the Falcon on Crait.

 

If Ruin=Ren, maybe 'Kylo Ren' is a title, with Snoke's other apprentice (Matt Smith) having also been Kylo Ren in the past. So these knights wouldnt have been originally Ben's.

That also would explain the Matt Smith-Sith (Palpatine) connection. A sith wannabe. He would have left the scene at some point and now hes back. Maybe the KOR's true allegiance is to Ren, and to 'their' Kylo Ren, not this one.

Ben, like Vader, talks of a 'new order'. Vader talked about ending 'this destructive conflict' (which meant war but also jedi vs sith), and probably Ben Solo's 'finish what you started' refers to that. 'It's time to let old things die. Snoke, Skywalker. The Sith, the Jedi, the Rebels'. And now The Rise of Skywalker, or so it goes the Vanity Fair piece, will 'bring to a climax the millennia-long conflict between the Jedi Order and its dark shadow, the Sith'

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/05/star-wars-cover-story?verso=true

 

What does everyone think is the significance of the prominence of Rey's staff in the VF cover and other promo images seen so far, versus the lightsaber. Common thought would be that Rey would always have a lightsaber in the TROS promos to show she's grown into a full Jedi. It's interesting that there's no saber on the VF cover but she has her staff.

 

In-universe, it's something you want to show and/or ignite sparingly else you draw attention to yourself. Not a good way to keep a low profile I suppose. Use it only when you have to, which is not most of the time.

 

I would say its because its actual plagueis's staff but we literal have her building it in canon novel before the awakening. Its probably because its something that she's instantly recognizable with

 

None of the origins of Kylo's helmet are important, in and of itself. It's just a symbol, pure and simple. Ben destroys it early in TLJ after the vicious criticism as a sort of "I'll show you, dad!", he brings it back later because it was his obsession rather than Snoke's and he's no longer taking orders from Snoke anymore. Free to indulge his lineage/ancestry obsession.

 

Mirror mirror...





In the EU, Anakin got his scar from Ventress, a villain... In TFA, Kylo got his scar from Rey, the heroin

 

I guess it’s to symbolize that she’s her own person/character who isn’t defined by any other character?

 

That's the best guess I can think of...On the other hand, Rey building her own lightsaber and promoting it prominently in advance of the film would be a more obvious way of showing Rey being her own person with agency and heroics all her own.

 

Rey's got her light saber in the trailer, and in most of the promotional pictures that we've seen so far. On the Vanity Fair covers, she doesn't have it, but Kylo doesn't either. It's probably meant to show them in a different situation than the typical antagonist/protagonist one. They're not ready to fight in this particular moment.

 

A few thoughts after reading the past week or so of posts in this thread

- It seems to me that some fans are trying way too hard to analyze everything. SW may have had its start with parallels to IRL wars, but it was never meant to be exactly like them. This is fiction. Based loosely on ideas and then taking them in their own direction. But having said that, I do think there are loose parallels with today's youth becoming radicalized and wanting to destroy many things.

- I don't interpret Adam's comments about Han and Leia being absentee parents as an excuse for being a villain. Instead, I think he's just saying that at some point, Ben started to deviate from the good path and because he felt isolated, he had no one to talk to, no one to correct his thinking. And that he made friends with the wrong crowd.

He could also have felt the weight of the family legacy, and desperately wanted to uphold it. So, maybe he thought he needed to do something, and without guidance (or with the wrong guidance), he started to veer off the righteous path.

- As for the mask, I used to think it was a backward step in his character. Now, I think the mask is part of his quest for obtaining Darkside relics that hold power.

 

No. Kylo’s image shows a sunset, and Rey’s shows a sunrise.

 

Bold Prediction! When Kylo became master of the Knights of Ren he had to change his name because he knew Ben Ren would be too silly sounding.

 

Pretty much how I see it too, especially the "fell in with a bad crowd" stuff. That doesn't take away from any of his own responsibility with his choices made, but it's a very real throughline to how he got where he is, especially if it happened quite young, maybe even the seeds of it before he even went to Luke for training. Always loved that "criminal/gang/pirate" (can't even remember the term used) stuff from the TFA-era books.

Teens lashing out and getting involved with petty small-time criminal/acting out type of stuff can definitely turn to more - it doesn't always, but for some it's the start of a bad path. Say he started out with some pretty-benign "waaah!" mommy/daddy issues at like 15, started running in some petty thug type of circles, and had always resented being sent away to Luke (almost like some delinquent kid getting shoved off to military camp or something), I can see how that festers. In a guy like Ben, anyway, not everyone's going to succumb to all that but we'd be kidding ourselves if we tried to say some people don't. Small grievances can escalate, especially if they're being fueled by a master manipulator, Snoke or Palpatine through Snoke.

 

I don't envy Abrams and co for having to make sure Kylo's character really comes together here. Still, Adam Driver's performance will likely shine no matter what.

I'm also of mixed feelings about the helmet being back. I hear it was a pain for Driver to wear so I'm not sure how much he'll sport it however.

 

The helmet looks great, and so I’m happy it’s back. Simple as that.

 

So far the rumours and the trailer seem to indicate that the mask is more the KoR's preoccupation than Kylo's. They're the ones who have it repaired (we see a KoR in the background during the repair scene), and Jason's leak regarding the mask involved the KoR only and not Kylo himself. iIt's possible that Kylo doesn't really want to wear it, but the KoR convinces him that he should. Or, it's another guy who wears it .

Kylo appears unmasked in the trailer and in most of the pictures that we've seen. So, the mask's lovers should be prepared not to see it very much...

 

To me it makes more sense that Kylo would repair it. He smashed his mask because Snoke made fun of it not because he truly had grown past the need to wear it. The repaired mask symbolizes that he's still hiding from something and is still trying to will himself into becoming Vader 2.0 because he's trying to abandon his Ben Solo past.