ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VII

Heh, now THAT would be a glorious "twist" for sure..

 

It's like poetry, it rhymes...

 

It's depressing because if Kylo doesn't return to the light side, it means no truly happy ending for Leia (or Luke, either). And it makes Han's last attempt to bring Kylo back seem like a waste and would basically mean he died for nothing.

I would like a Vader-with-a-twist story. I want Kylo to turn good in episode 9, and help save the day somehow, but I don't want him to die at the end. I want Kylo to have to deal with his mistakes and find his own way and path in the galaxy.

 

For those who've read Odepus Rex's Cliff's Notes, mythology is a pretty messed up, bloody, incestuous thing filled with immature gods and deities who don't have it all figured out.

If George was trying to create a modern myth, I'd say the great experiment is still working as intended as the now Disney owned Star Wars is still all of those things.

I will bet a Jabba's share of credits that there is zero chance the son of Han and Leia will not be inspired back to the right path by the time this story is concluded.

 

How do you feel about this theory: Ben's story is, basically, Anakin's descent into darkness reversed.
What happens to him in TFA is his Order 66/Mustafar, where he commits the ultimate act of betrayal against his family to become stronger with the dark side.
In EpVIII, it becomes apparent that Ben and his mother share a special bond and that he dreads meeting her because he knows that she might bring an end to Kylo Ren. Indeed, when they finally do meet, she is in a life threatening situation and though he tries to resist the urge to save her, he ultimately gives in and removes the threat.
In EpIX, Kylo Ren fades away until at last, Ben Solo saves the day and reunites with his mother.
Then, they live out the rest of their days in the slave quarters of Mos Espa

?

 

Kylo seemed obsessed with Vader, keeping Vader's old Helmet, talking to it when no one was looking... I wouldn't be surprised if Anakin's ghost makes an appearance to try and set him straight... (kind of odd that Anakin's ghost has stood by allowing him to talk to that silly helmet in the first place without saying anything)

 

I'm kind of hoping that the rules that Lucas setup in ESB stay intact.

"If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere."

Jedi Ghosts shouldn't be allowed to show up in the presence of the darkside.

 

Agreed, but I think there must be a larger specific reason Anakin's force ghost wasn't heard in the force vision as Obi-Wan and Yoda's were.

 

Hmm I like it but those were more visions IMO. Like the cave. Rey heard Yoda, Sidious and Obi-Wan in her vision. They weren't Force Ghosts.


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That's what I thought initially but in the case of Obi-Wan in a moment in the movie where I almost fell out of my seat you can hear Alec Guinness speaking directly to Rey.

In the comics adaptation there is additional dialogue from Obi-Wan "You will be tempted by the dark side, you will do it alone." and you can see him standing there. The story of JJ becoming giddy they could use the snippet of the word 'afraid' from ANH to have Alec Guinness say "Rey" suggests there is much more to that vision than we know.

 

Easy explanation that can still support the rules. Part of it was a vision (which was pretty evident) visually and the Obi-Wan was a command from his Force Ghost.

 

Could it be possible that Anakin's spirit splintered in two? Maybe his dark self still remained, and maybe it can appear?

 

Disney hates the prequels!!! I jest.

 

Oh yeah??!? Then why are they releasing... ANOTHER PREQUEL???

 

Kylo's darkness and his backstory would be much easier to understand had Snoke kidnapped him as a child. Having him make that decision in his teens or twenties, makes him seem like a weak emo kid, which isn't a mark of a good villian/antagonist. Had he not known his family, been trained by Snoke since infancy, then at the moment of his biggest tests, be FIRST introduced to this conflict, it would make him more threatening. He would be so confused and hurt that his family was stripped from him (similar to another character we know) he would be full of misguided anger, which (after further investigation) would turn into hatred towards his leader. Since many want a redeeming story where he turns on Snoke, this minor change would grant them that. Him and Rey could even later bond in their familiar tragic stories.

 

That's sort of the point of Kylo though. He wasn't a slave like his grandfather. He didn't grow up in a war like his mother and uncle. He didn't even have a shady past like his dad's to deal with. He DID have loving (if perhaps somewhat distant or busy) parents, a wise mentor, and great natural power. And yet somehow he ended up idolising Darth flipping Vader of all people. He's lashing out because he's a jerk, pure and simple.

 

Gotta love that "depth".

 

In the same way Rey seems to be way too naturally talented to be just some orphan from a junk planet, I am pretty sure there is more to why Kylo turned out the way he did. But given TFA is just establishing the grounds the next two will elaborate on (hopefully) then yeah, he's pretty simplistic as a character.

 

... in the movie Leia says "it was Snoke " and in the novel they even elaborate on that and make it pretty clear, it is something along the lines " Snoke has been watching him even before he was born" and so on. It´s not nearly that simple. Also, the seemingly normal background makes the character more interesting, more relatable... unlike Anakins slave-on-a-desert-planet backstory. Kylo is a very modern character in that aspect. I read an interview with Kathleen Kennedy somewhere where she said something like this ... I will post the link if I find it.

 

I respect your viewpoint, but please explain this relatable aspect of his character. How can anyone relate to his story? I've never flipped out over hearing my lineage has a dark past or been blindly obsessed with a murderer for my life. And I know the relatable story isn't literal, but it has to be founded in some type of turmoil or character attribute. You are all assuming it was something he told him when he was a child and he twisted Kylo's anger and frustration, but it's a weak dynamic to his character. He has the "perfect balance of light and dark", struggles to stay dark, yet was sent to camp because he had too much Vader in him?
I feel as if they want to go the misguided kid route, but don't have the story to tell it. Don't HAVE, not can make up later on.

Take Count Dooku for example. Why did he go to the Dark Side and become a Sith? For that answer, I dont need to know anything about the specific events he experienced as a Jedi. All I need to know is his background and his character. He is called "Count" because he comes from a royal family. Naturally, he wants prestige, honor, respect, and power. He joins a "humble" and calm Jedi Order. They persistently are at odds because he knows he can provide better strategy than what the order decides on. He is also aware of the corruption in the Senate. He just so happens to be alive during the Jedi darkest days, flooded with arrogance and poor judgement. So his status and character NATURALLY causes him to divert from their approval and lead a separate organization in attempts to correct their wrong decisions and repair the Republic and the galaxy as a whole. Of course, he became overwhelmed with his natural characteristics of wanting control and power, and followed into an evil path.

That's his story grounded in his character and background. There's no strong story with Kylo. We can say he's literally brainwashed, but then how is that a strong story or character? So Snoke told something to Kylo? He can tell anything to anyone. Oh, it's because he's a Skywalker, so he stalked him over his life, and manipulated him for his power. They're just forcing the story and basically copying Vader/ Anakin's path. "Too much Vader in him". So that means he rebels as a child and allows negative outside influence to cloud his views? Anakin did not rebel because of his lineage, his presumably distant or caring parents, his want for power, or just plain jerk behavior. It was all grounded in tragedy. He rebelled because no one understood, not because he wanted to be different. He sought power because he wanted to save whom he loved, not to attain something that was teased to him. He fell because he didn't realize who he was would always cause what he would endure, not what he endures is a result of who he isn't. That's the tragedy that makes Anakin's story relatable to the viewers.

(BTW dont read those last sentences from our viewpoint, but from the character's view)

As the movie says: "You'll never Your story will never be a strong as Darth Vader('s)."

Nobody like my comment. Just ponder on what I said.

"You must sense what I have come to suspect. The Jedi Council and many other forums/fan, have a contrived interest in the character of Kylo Ren. You and Lucasfilm/JJ believe it can be the strongest arc of the saga."
"I don't think--"
"Fans, search your feelings.You know don't you?"

 

There are some things I haven't read from many people yet with regards to Anakin turning ..namely, .how his deep rooted insecurities, primarily his lack of empowerment as a child ultimately affected him...(perhaps I should read the threads devoted to Anakin's turn more I havent been able to delve into them yet)..

Anyway.. my take: (which will lead to Kylo)
.
Anakin gew up a slave. No say in his life, or his mother's life. He watched his mother struggle, her accelerarted aging & the abuse she endured as a slave. He was helpless to free her or himself from it.

Qui Gon came and felt the boy's connection to the force, and sensed a greater destiny but never stopped to think about or address the deep-seated insecurities and anger Anakin's past caused him. It scarred Anakin's adult psyche, and Anakin never received counsel for it.

These feelings of helplessness, of weakness were amplified when he was proven unable to save his mother. Waching her die in his arms. His dreams of Padma dying also caused him to panic and yet again flared his feeling of helplessness and weankess. Palpatine saw this, when the Jedi did not, and THIS was how Palpatine turned Anakin. Anakin felt the Jedi were once again limiting his ability as he was limited when he lived as a slave. Keeping him subservient and refusing to grant him what he perceived as equal and rightful status. Those feelings he had locked up from living an early life within slavery flared his insecurity and ego. Palpatine provided Anakin with a way to finally break free of that slavery and torment. He offered Anakin that empowerment to act and protect those he loved...

So it was Palpatine alone who had the genius to use Anakin's past to control Anakin's future. To turn Anakin's fears and insecurities against him. The Jedi were so obsessed with Anakin's force potential they failed to address the frightened and helpless young boy he still was in his mind.

Once Anakin gave in to temptation the rest of the dark violently rushed in. Whatever dam was protecting his soul from the dark gave way.

Now with regards to Kylo we have seen a small fragment of the root if his insecurities. Namely abandonment. In the dialogue of the film we know for certain he felt abandoned maybe even betrayed by his father. And Leia, Luke most likely repeated the same mistakes the Jedi counsel did in failing to address this before they allowed him to train his force ability. Snoke most likely came in, as a father figure. Stroking Kylos insecurities, and offering him the acceptance and guidance missing from his life. The acceptance Kylo wanted from his father Han.

So in the least we know what most likely started Kylo's fall... the abandonment he felt from his father, and mostl likely the insecurites resulting from his realization of what his Father was. A man unable to navigate higher social structure, one who felt more at home with lowly smugglers and conmen. Someone who felt more at home in a smuggler outpost or seedy cantina than at the royal/political court. He might have also been ashamed of his Father's lack of skill and understanding with/of the force.

This prompted a desire for Kylo to link to his ancestry. To embrace the powerful bloodline he felt his grandfather was a part of. He also wanted to feel akin to something, to find his place. And he found this in a twisted way by his imagined sense of what Vader was. Which gives us understanding of why Kylo became the great "Vader pretender".

We also know through Rey's sense that one of Kylos great fears is that he isnt as powerful or cant become as powerful as Vader. Therefore meaning his ability might be closer aligned to his lowly Father who abandoned him. It would shatter his desire for a connection to a higher Vader, whose power he idolizes.

Im sure in time we weill learn more about Luke's failing and how Snoke probably used that as well in his subjugation of Kylo..

So Kylo's dark side starts with Han and Leia, all the while since birth spurred by an unseen Snoke, and finally giving way due to a failure of Luke's...

(apologies for the verbose and overworded post, Im tired and find it difficult atm to focus my idea)

 

And I respect yours, I can see for what you can connect more with the Arc of Anakin than with what we know of Kylo´s so far. What I find more relatable and real about Kylo´s arc is exactly what you don´t seem to like. Yes, Anakin´s fall was a tragic one but for me it is exactly that what seems contrived and unnatural. Tragedies are for greek myths and English class, and they are good but to me feel somewhat stale and distant. So that Kylo comes from a sheltered, priviledged family and still ends up damaged and making all the wrong choices - that is what feels more relatable for me. And I found the Kathleen Kennedy quote, in the UK Star Wars Insider magazine from January and that is exactly why I think the character is modern and relatable:

" Anybody is capable of having interest in the dark side, and that tension of being drawn into something that is somewhat dangerous is relatable. For audiences today, that´s a new and exciting and appealing character. When we look at our own lives, it´s about the choices we make. This is a character who has made a lot of bad choices, but not necessarily in the world of Star Wars, becuase that can go in any direction. This story is a mirrow on the world. A lot of kids are experiencing a very troubled landscape politically and a lot of things are happening that suggest that people are drawn in by danger, turmoil, and unrest. (...) Kylo Ren represents that dark side of society that we can be drawn to, not knowing whose side to be on and not having a clear-cut idea of what´s good or bad. "​

But it all comes down to what you personally prefer I guess.​

 

Star Wars is a myth.

It's still following the melodramatic tone of ancient mythology with a modern twist.

The characters do not have the same understanding of the subtleties of life that we do. The main theme in Star Wars is personal growth and change, all the heroes go through a process where what they were certain of is usually not the case.

Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

 

I'm not sure we'll get much of an explanation as to why he turned. He was a kid with issues. Han describes him as having too much Vader in him. I doubt he'd say that if Ben was some sweet kid that one day snapped when he learned Vader was his grandfather. He was probably an angry kid.

As to why he was an angry kid, we don't know, but I feel like it doesn't matter. It can probably be said (due to his ridicule of Han as a father) that he probably felt his parents didn't love him, but I don't want to see things turn into an argument as to whether Han and Leia hugged him enough as a kid. Which is why it's probably going to be left vague.

He, for whatever reason, felt rejected by his parents, he's an angry kid. Leia feels Luke can help him. But Ben falls and kills the other students and joins the First Order.

He speaks poorly of Han, but when Snoke decides to destroy the Resistance, Kylo tries instead to dissuade Snoke, insisting he can probe Rey's mind with Snoke's guidance.

I'm wondering if the thought of killing Leia was harder to come to terms with.

Even with Han, Han confronts Kylo and I'm sure Kylo can in that moment feel his father's love, but he can't forgive himself and feels he can not turn away from his path now.

After killing Han and losing to the Resistance, Snoke says it's time to complete Kylo's training.

Both Vader and Palpatine make reference to "completing" Luke's training. In that context, they are referring to completing training somebody else started (Yoda and Obi-Wan).

I have seem some argue that Snoke had not fully trained Kylo, when I question whether Snoke had trained him at all up to that point. That maybe Snoke had agreed to train Kylo, but refused to do so until he proved himself by killing Han. At no point that I can remember did Kylo refer to Snoke as his Master, and when he asks for guidance in probing Rey's mind, Snoke instead orders Kylo to bring him Rey.

Pablo was asked who would win in a fight between Maul and Kylo, and Pablo said he would think Maul because he had been trained as a Sith his whole life.

That's probably just Pablo's personal opinion, but to me that would suggest that Kylo is fairly weak compared to pretty much any other Force using villain (or hero) across the saga.

Anakin himself attacked the Jedi Temple before receiving any training from Palpatine.

So I question whether he has been trained at all by Snoke by the time of TFA.


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Anakin was the chosen one.

Not Palpatine.