ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in the ST

He’s not graceful and other saber battles have been prettier and closer to ballet but few have been as brutish as his have. The power Driver swings his saber with and his actual moves to avoid being hit all feel bigger and riskier than what we are used to seeing. His feels closer to a barbarian or something where he’s swinging a broadsword so hard that even if you block it you might drop your own weapon if you aren’t careful.

He seems wiling to just anticipate and dodge with his body at times instead of blocking as well. So he just narrowly avoids being hit and it adds a level of thrill to his fights because they feel less staged and more gritty and real. That moment where the guard swings right as his face and he stumbles and leans back feels very realistic. Even his facial reaction looks like someone who knows if he’s not careful he’ll get his head cut off.

 

It’s also his saber. His saber is being used more like a heavy broadsword. He uses its near invincibility more to outmuscle some opponents.






Here he ends up using his off hand and the weapon he picked up.



He also uses the Force to anticipate attacks.



Even his punches would hurt a ton. He generates a lot of power.

 

Wow.

Driver's performance, both as an actor and his physical are one of the best in the whole saga.



"Faster and more intense" with silly (but fast!) useless flourishes?! Nah thanks.
I love Hayden and Ewan, and they did their best according to the instructions they were given, but most of the PT choreography was just silly.

Let's have actual real fighting choreography that is also there as part of the characters' overall characterization.

You should watch some broadsword videos to see what the fighting style is supposed to be for such a weapon.
Also the ST doesn't have a glaring contradiction to the OT which the PT obviously had.

TL DR
Driver's performance - both as an actor and his physical one are fantastic.

 

I MUCH prefer the ST lightsaber stuff thus far to the PT stuff.

That being said, I do like that they’re very different. Variety

 

I don't understand the appeal of the ST lightsaber fights. I wouldn't go as far as to blame the actors, but I feel the "style" TPTB chose has a decidedly rehearsed look to it. This quality is not exclusive to Kylo Ren's "style".

When I read the descriptions by people who who enjoy the new "style", I feel like we must have seen two different films. To me, the compilation provided above by @Ender_and_Bean exemplifies the rehearsed quality to which I refer. @Ender_and_Bean obviously sees something I don't. I just don't get it.

 

They’re all rehearsed. Even some of the best ones overall have obvious rehearsed moments and safety moments where they’re aiming to hit savers more than do damage.



It’s always the little dodge moments that enhance these battles and either add to the weight or make it feel too much like ballet. Driver sells that he seems legitimately concerned about getting hit here to the extent where he’s doing all that he can to avoid it. Little stuff like seeming genuinely worried about getting sliced can make the moments more thrilling and seem more spontaneous even when they’re not.





Saber battles and indeed most movies are meant to be experienced in real-time though and not chopped up, slowed down or zoomed into afterward. Movie magic is at its best in real-time on the first few watches.

 

I understand they are all rehearsed; of course. That rehearsed look, to me, is much more readily evident in the recent movies. There are moments that bug me in the PT, but its not enough to take me out of the fantasy.

I chose the word "rehearsed", however, in an attempt to not belittle the actors or the choreographer(s). I'm sure they did their best, but my actual, raw and unfiltered opinion of the final product is much more harsh. I have been exceedingly disappointed with the lightsaber fights in the ST. I understand this is subjective, which is why I have toned it down for this discussion. I simply do not see what you see.

 

Well, none of them are Jedi masters either so there’s that, too. The PT era Sith and Jedi were some of the most skilled with a saber that there was. The ST sort of falls between the OT and PT in the amount of saber complexity that’s going on &it kind of makes sense since none of the people who’ve held sabers in the ST are at Anakin/Obi-Wan/Yoda/Sith Lord levels. Those guys were the best of the best.

Kylo Ren is better at sneaky force multitasking than he is any other Dark Side skill. That’s probably the only area he’s mastered in his training so far.

 

You needed a TL DR but you didn't actually say anything about Driver's performance other than that it was fantastic.

You post the whirling gif, which I've always hated, so I'm not sure what point you think you have there. It says nothing about physical performance, as Hayden and Ewan were asked to do that. You can't say they didn't do it well.

You compare PT choreography with ST choreography, when I've hardly mentioned choreography at all. I haven't really criticized the choreography, just Driver's performance of it.

I don't need to watch broadsword videos, I'm familiar with the weapon, thanks. It's not the weapon I'm criticizing, but Driver.

I guess this dodge adds desperation to the scene for you, but to me it just makes Driver/Kylo look really clumsy. He kicks his right leg out, hard, for no real reason, and he almost falls down because of it. He kicks it out after the attack has gone by. It's really forced and it just looks really awkward. He looks like he's walking on ice.

I'd prefer it if Kylo looked like a decently coordinated athlete, not a heavy legged drunk. His legs look like he's wearing brick shoes they're so heavy.

I noticed it the only time I watched it.

Same here, I've gotten little out of them.

You want to talk about bad?


Look at the idiots on the left. All three morons attack Rey's blade at the same spot at roughly the same time. Total incompetence. At the very least, the last idiot to strike, the guy closest to the camera, should have adjusted his blow at the last second to skewer Rey through the guts when he saw her busy blocking his comrades up high.

Again, I noticed this the moment I saw it. It's just very noticeable.

Then you have the really, really clumsy, awkward whatever thing where Driver's butt thrusts back hard and Daisy kicks her leg forward. Whatever this was supposed to be, it looks horrible. It looks like something Daisy and Adam needed to practice more.

 

@TCF-1138 could you suggest a thread for this to go in? And maybe shift some of the discussion there?

There should be a general lightsaber combat thread for this.

 

I am not @Obi-Wan Solo-Skywalker but I think the gif showed is the prime example of showing casing Adam’s technique. It is a juxtaposition of grace with power and sheer physical size. The twirl is also an important part of the storytelling and his character. Ren is an arrogant piece of — and he is playing with Finn, who he underestimates and thinks is not a real threat (when Finn draws blood, Ren quickly ends the fight he initially prolonged for fun). His fight is much less flowery with Rey by contrast.

 

My primary issue with the throne room scene was that it lacked emotional punch because we just don’t know what Rey/Kylo think/feel about each other, and there was no banter during the fight.

Which made it feel kinda flashy and empty, vs the excellent TFA duel.

 

Oh how awesome it would have been if this fight was redeemed-ish Kylo teaming up with Rey to attempt to kill Snoke.

 

I claim that the performance of Adam Driver is the second best in the whole SW saga.

 

I have to agree that AD is great. Who do you think is first best?

 

@lovethedarkside
I still put Harrison Ford on the top of the list, mainly because of how iconic his character turned out to be.
But I find AD really great, I think he manages to make every scene feel powerful.

 

https://boards.theforce.net/threads...-so-far-thread.50047648/page-50#post-55336876

You may have seen this but I was reminded.

MJ

 

Honestly, this is something I noticed on a second viewing that I never really mentioned but what makes it even more embarrassing is that not only do they all strike in roughly the same spot and not only does the last guy not impale her when she leaves a gigantic opening but Rey isn't even in a stance that would allow her to block the combined force of three warriors with armor that are even wielding weapons with more leverage. It's legitimately hard to look at.

 

His acting is not the problem. If Ren was given the proper character, story and motivation then Adam Driver could possibly even get to HC levels as long as he got the proper Lightsaber training.

Couldn't disagree more.

That is actually what happened in Lucas' movies. The PT especially.

The glaring contradiction is the ST which say that you don't need training at all and can still defeat someone with years of training just with the Force (and no knowledge of it) or in Finn's case no training and no Force and still get some cuts in rather than lose in one stroke.

 

@Talos of Atmora
I'll give it a pass, even a masterpiece as Old Boy had a major mistake in its most iconic fighting scene.

 

OK, you clearly were not paying attention to the actual fight scenes because they reflected their characters fairly well. Anakin and Obi-Wan are prime examples of this. Anakin's headstrong and ruthless attitude is reflected in the way that he consistently leverages his own strength and speed over his opponents. He essentially crafted himself into a maelstrom of violence.

Leaping attacks:




Stalwart advances where he presses the advantage (keep in mind that this was shortly before he overwhelmed Dooku's defenses):


Using physical attacks like solid center kicks and grappling to subdue his opponent:




Also, notice his strong overhead strikes and broader cleaving attacks in that last gif.

Meanwhile with Obi-Wan, his choices in fighting show more discipline when it comes to subverting his opponent rather than overwhelming them.

Uses his environment to his advantage far more frequently:



Is more proactive when it comes to using the Force in ways that aren't simply meant to augment his physical combat prowess:



Uses deft counters via techniques like blade-binding:



Prioritizes an incredibly stalwart defense and exploits openings:



Goads his opponents into overextending their reach and leaving themselves open to devastating counterattack:

 

If I had one wish, I would wish for Grievous to be scrubbed from the canon.