ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in the ST

Did Han ever enjoy a moment like this?


Sorry, no offense to large sons, I was 6'1" at age 15 myself

I thought the lanky black caped look was better too.

 

Copying this from a post of mine on another thread if anyone wants to discuss:

I admit I was a little confused when Snoke says "Take that ridiculous thing off" because I had just assumed in TFA the helmet was a sign of Kylo's loyalty to him.

But in retrospect it is perhaps an intentional mirror to and subversion of TFA:

TFA
Han: "Take off that mask. You don't need it."
Kylo: "What do you think you will see if I do?"
Han: "The face of my son."
...
Han: "My son is alive."
(Kylo then kills his "good father" Han to prove he is really not Ben anymore.)

TLJ
Snoke: "Take that ridiculous thing of."
...
"There it is. You have too much of your father's heart."
(Later Kylo kills his "bad father" Snoke to save Rey and make himself Supreme leader.)

I mean so much of these two plots are a complete flip, I don't think it was accidental.
Both father-figures tell Kylo to take off his mask, then are killed by him.
Both are killed by Kylo in an attempt by Kylo to be "Who he is meant to be".

And significantly the two "fathers" have the opposite reason to request the mask removed.
Han wants Ben back and sees the mask as a representation of someone he is not truly - Kylo.
Snoke thinks the masked persona is a facade and represents Kylo is not evil enough.
So while both removals are an attempt by the films to humanise Kylo in a way, Snoke and Han have opposite reactions to Kylo's taking it off... Han's sad expression at recognition of his son's face ("We miss you"), Snoke's contempt at Kylo's remaining sentiment.

And if the two deaths actually even quelled any conflict seems unlikely. Although when sparing Rey and killing Snoke he seemed more confident in his choice than when killing Han.


Plus Han requests Kylo to take off the mask with fatherly compassion, and implies all will be forgiven if he turns back. Snoke insults Kylo for failing and shoots him with force-lightning.

 

I’ve been thinking more about Driver’s revelation that there’s at least one thing he was told about his character which still hasn’t been revealed yet in the movies. I began thinking that maybe Ben Solo has some sort of task that he’s been trying to condition himself for by embracing the Dark Side. Unlike Anakin’s goal, which was emotional, maybe Ben’s goal is actually noble. It seems to make sense with the idea mentioned by Kasdan and others that Kylo thinks he’s doing the right thing

 

Don't all darksiders believe they're doing the right thing though? Vader wanted order after the horrors of TCW, a corrupt Republic and a Jedi Order which he thinks has lost its way. Kylo thinks his father is a disappointment and he thought Luke wanted to kill him but he seems to have a soft spot for his mother. Internally, he is torn between the light and the dark, basically, he's imbalanced. We don't know how long he's been influence by Snoke but we can assume it was since his childhood at the very least and we don't know when he was sent to Luke. He seems to think the helmet is showing him things, which we saw happening to Rey with Anakin's lightsaber as well and he wants to "finish what Vader started" but we don't know what yet.

 

I don’t know. Nothing about the emperor seemed to me about belief in doing the right thing. The emperor was just hungry for power and he had the intelligence to make it happen. And Vader seemed more to join out of insecurity than a sense of righteousness.

The things the council asked him to do and the things Palpatine suggested to him about the Jedi certainly shook his faith in their sanctity, but I doubt it was enough to make him completely ignore his moral compass and slaughter a bunch of Jedi children. It seems, rather, it was his insecurity about his wife which caused enough desperation in him to do that, hoping it would somehow give him the power to save her. The problem was, like any drug, once he experienced the power of the Dark Side, it became stronger within him than any other desire, *including* saving his wife.

True. I just think there’s something specific we’ve yet to be told about him (akin to Anakin having dreams about Padme dying) which drove him to such lengths he took. A triggering idea, if you will, nurtured by Snoke, acting upon which turned his heart from light to dark. (Remember that his heart was already turned when Luke had his moment of lightsaber panic)

 

Anakin hated the Council after ahsoka left. Sheev also was Fostering anakin's hate since he was a child . Anakin wanted to leave the order when he was in his teens. Sheev took him to a bar and showed him how the underground worked. I think we can infer Sheev took Anakin out to different places in his youth after that to teach him even more lessons . Snoke's been after Ben since he was in leia's womb if we interrupt the two scenes of Leia feeling ben being upset after some sorta darkness is shooting him while he moves in her womb in after math empires end. Leia's nightmare in Empires end also implies some force was blocking stars like eyes being force closed (which when it came out people thought snoke was something like abeloth as she use to do that in dreams of ben Skywalker in legends) The Helmet could be showing Kylo things Helmets/mask of darksiders doo have power in nu canon . The Helmet could have a shade of Sheev or Vader attached to it .

 

I definitely didn't see Sidious as believing he's doing the right thing, but I think an interpretation could be made. Perhaps he thinks the galaxy should be ruled by the dark side, and equates that with the "right thing." And of course an Empire that fails to defend him must be punished. It is wrong not to defend the Emperor. So really mostly whatever Sidious wants is right and going against his wishes is wrong.

 

. All plausible motivations to abandon the Jedi, but not to slaughter them.

I’ve often wondered, since TFA, what it was that Vader started which Kylo promised to finish. It’s particularly the “finish” part that’s mysterious to me.




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I thought it was Snoke who either gave him visions through Vader's helmet or told him stories about his grandfather since he was there to see the rise and fall of the Empire. That may be how he know about Vader's redemption.

 

I suspect that Kylo has either misled himself or has been misled by some malign force as to Vader's life and intentions. If we go by his shtick in TLJ - 'end the Jedi/Sith' ' get rid of the past/let it die' etc etc... Maybe he just reckons that Vader's goals were similar. He may over-identify with Vader to the extent that he interprets his (no doubt incomplete) knowledge of Vader's life through the lens of his own distorted perspective and draws the conclusion that him and Vader were of course after the same thing.

In Kylo's view the Skywalkers had the Galaxy in the palm of their hands and then let it go, leaving some corrupt and inefficient pseudo-democracy in charge on Hosnian Prime while Han plays smuggler, Luke plays teacher, and Leia plays at still being a Rebel rather than taking full political responsibility for restoring a functioning Republic after RotJ. That might partially explain his point of view.

 

Ren has misled himself about a lot of things.

 

Why did Kylo remove his glove before reaching his hand towards Rey? He could just have kept it on but this is what makes me think there is something more to it than simply two Force users reaching out to each other. He was the one to be intrigued by her and her powers since they first met, whereas to Rey he was just a monster who killed her father figure at first hence why I think their relationship—not necessarily romantic per se—was very one-sided in TFA. I also kinda liked that he didn't join the resistance right away after killing Snoke and briefly teaming up with Rey. I like them showing it's not that easy to turn away from the darkside. He needs something more than just Rey showing him compassion.

 

I agree @Ancient Whills. I think that he also would have received plenty of compassion from his family. His parents especially love and look upon him with great compassion. Not receiving compassion from others wasn't the problem. The problem is that Kylo Ren lacks compassion and usually succeeds in suppressing compassion.

I think for Vader the show of compassion from Luke was really important because I think that he fundamentally didn't believe in the good in people anymore, not really. He didn't believe in it in himself. Part of his fall was he lost faith in the Jedi and their goodness (which haha Luke struggles with this in TLJ - it parallels). Luke is a confirmation of the good in humanity and the faith he needs to believe in his own goodness.

I think this is different than Kylo's situation even if I don't know specifically how. Basically I think not showing Kylo compassion may have a better effect than showing him compassion. He has to generate compassion within himself.

 

He seems to believe that his parents saw him more as a monster than a son but he also seems to still have affection for his mother because he didn't fire on her. TFA's novelization did have Snoke mentions Kylo having compassion for Rey after the interrogation scene. It also shows a slightly different take than the movie which was more straightforward. He seemed almost apologetic in a way.

“I know you’ve seen the map,” he repeated. “It’s what I need. At the moment, it is all that I need.”
When she maintained her silence, he almost sighed. “I can take whatever I want.”
Her muscles tightened. “Then you don’t need me to tell you anything.”
“True.” He rose, resigned. “I would have preferred to avoid this. Despite what you may believe, it gives me no pleasure. I will go as easily as possible—but I will take what I need.”


The Supreme Leader’s voice was flat. “You have compassion for her.”
“No—never. Compassion? For an enemy of the Order?”
“I perceive the problem,” Snoke intoned. “It isn’t her strength that is making you fail. It’s your weakness.” The rebuke hurt, but Ren didn’t show it. “Where is the droid?”


And also I liked that he mentioned that he was weakened after killing his father, goes to show that the promises of power the darkside are empty.

 

Right, he harbors false beliefs. But if a show of love from family was the answer, there wouldn't be anything stopping him from going with Han in TFA. He also mocks the possibility of Luke "saving his soul."

the problem is he is always trying to suppress compassion. Any that gets out is in spite of his efforts

 

Congratulations to Adam for his Tony nomination! He always seems so humble.

“It’s hard to articulate the honor it is to be nominated,” Driver said. “I’m beyond thrilled to be a part of this play, with this cast and director, and this production team. It’s a meaningful moment in my life that I’m very grateful for.”

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I was originally disappointed with Kylo Ren's arc because I thought it was a remake of Anakin/Vader story. A Skywalker falling to the darkside only to be redeemed in the end thanks to our heroine's infinite compassion to him, hence why I was pleased to be proven wrong when he didn't turn back right away in TLJ, plus it will force JJ to come up with something new since I felt like TLJ was a mix between ESB and ROTJ, so he can no longer just repeat it, he has to innovate. I always expected him to redeem himself at some point but I didn't expect him to kille Snoke this early and to become emperor basically, he went farther than Vader in this case. He's also not just a Vader copycat, he has different reactions to situations than his grandfather, he's much more overtly conflicted than Vader, which I really didn't like in TFA because I prefer when conflict are more subtle than characters telling us they're conflicted,

he's also clearly has more funny moments in which his anger is seemingly more comedic rather than terrifying as you would expect for a villain and in TLJ he doesn't appear menacing, especially as his and Rey's connection deepens. When he's asking Rey to join him, he's more pleading and then he completely lost it in the third act and yet, I still thought it was more comedic than menacing.

While he's still far from being one of my favorite characters, I'm no longer mad at his character arc or his personality, I accept it and can even enjoy it at some point. His story also reflects what generally happens to villains in SW. They evolve, some become more evil, some become good or choose to no longer serve a master, to be independant and maybe find love on the way even after they committed atrocities(Kallus, Ventress, Iden Versio). His story reminds me a lot of Ventress's story though I think Kylo's story will have a happier ending than hers.

Yes, they will have to address that what he did was wrong and how to deal with the consequences of his actions but I certainly don't expect anything close to what would happen in the real world because this is still a fantasy story destined towards 12-year-olds. Unless they do like what they did with Vader and hide his true identity from the galaxy which is still possible but honestly, I could see him becoming a ronin-like figure after he redeems himself, helping the people in need wherever the Jedi aren't.

As for his relationship with Rey, they could end up in a romantic relationship or not even if I prefer that he doesn't. I want him to find out what his place is in the galaxy first before thinking about being in a romantic relationship but this is still a possibility, especially when they are set up as two pieces of something big. We never had that kind of relationship in SW before, not even between master and apprentice so it will be interesting to see where it goes in IX whether they end up together or not, everything will depend on the execution as always.

 

I assume that Snoke, like all good "Sith" masters is just gaslighting Kylo the entire time.

"Wear this mask and be my dark apprentice!"
...
"Now, take that ridiculous mask off!" etc. Just pulling his strings to degrade him and break him of all human emotion based on the situation. Notice how when Snoke wants Kylo to kill Rey he's pumping him up and telling him how great he is...

I think it's once Kylo realizes how Snoke was manipulating him he can simply choose for himself. Apparently at some point in TROS he chooses to don the mask again. It may only be for a small part of the movie. We don't know yet.

 

No offence but the Skywalker men are all drama king with Anakin being the biggest drama king to have ever existed in SW so that Kylo is also one doesn't surprise me at all, it's pretty consistent with what's established about this family. On the other hand, the women seem very collected and the ones in charge, they seem to control their emotions better than their male counterpart though they're not without flaws.

I think this Dave Filoni quote from the Rebel Remembered panel at SWCC which really sums up what I believe is Kylo Ren/Ben Solo's arc.
"There’s a redemption for most characters– if not all characters– in Star Wars films and there’s an arc and a path to when they let go and stop being selfish."

 

You know, I really do not like how reductive this interpretation of Anakin's personality actually is. The only point in comparing the two is showing how much better of a character Anakin is by contrast.

 

I don't necessarily see 'drama king' as a negative thing, it's actually part of his appeal to me. Yes, he also have other personality traits such as loyalty to people not principles, black and white thinking of the world, fear of loss etc. They all struggled with the darkside in significant ways while Kylo is struggling with "the pull to the light" which I found odd because it implies that he's struggling to be a bad person when it's been established that it's easier to be a bad person than good one. The character's personalities are generally exaggerated to the extremes to make a point because SW is not exactly a 1:1 comparison to the real world.

I also find most of his outbursts has been portrayed as more comedic in nature than truly terrifying. He's a villain for now so he doesn't have to be likable but LFL is trying very hard to show how different from Vader he really is despite his wish to emulate him. We didn't see Vader's inner conflict until ROTJ—or end of ESB if you believe him not killing anyone after the Millennium Falcon gets away shows his inner conflict. Showing Snoke's disappointment at Kylo's failures and punishment and showing him not firing on his mother in TLJ probably helped to give him more sympathy points.

LFL also focus a lot on this unknown connection he has with Rey and how different it is from other bonds between Force users. A bond which started in the interrogation scene when she resisted his mind prob and got access to his thoughts and feelings or since Takodana according to Kylo Ren's Databank entry. It started as an unwanted intimacy but as they bonded more and more through their shared loneliness, when they finally touched hands across the galaxy, she saw a potential future in which Ben Solo turned from the darkside thanks to her help while he saw her past or what she believed to be true. She was briefly proven right when Kylo killed Snoke and teamed up with her to defeat the Praetorian Guards. He could choose to do it again in IX and redeem himself.

 

I think it was more unwanted from Rey's POV at first, Kylo was much more intrigued by her but she only saw him as a monster at first. The Force connected them somehow, and neither could control it when it happened. She apparently got access to his training just by being in his mind and was able to grow in her control of the Force just by looking at his movements.

There's also Snoke's influence on Kylo to think about as Leia said, he could have found ways to turn him against his own families like telling him who was his grandfather for example, maybe he thought Luke was holding him back because of his raw potential, maybe he felt excluded among Luke's other apprentices. Maybe he felt abandoned by his parents who sent him away because they feared his power and there being "too much Vader in him".