ST Admiral Holdo's Hyperjump in Episode VIII

However, i recall this scene from Empire Strikes Back:

Its hard to tell in this particular clip (it was the only one available on youtube), but between the orders 'Take evasive action' and when the Star Destroyer executes at least a 90 degree turn, there is maybe 1 or 2 seconds. If we add tech that puts maneuvering thrusters on the edges of the Star Destroyer's hull, it could execute a 180 degree turn fairly quickly. But clearly, even without technological modifications, a star destroyer can avoid a mid-space collision with another ship that is only dozens or hundreds of meters away from it, and almost already collided.

Now, if the First Orders ships aren't capable of maneuvers, cool. They would be smart to modify them, since such maneuvers are scientifically possible within Star Wars as demonstrated by the "evasive action" maneuverability of the star destroyer.

The starfighter argument is valid: but i don't really see effective deployment of starfighters in Star Wars anyway outside of Endor and Yavin. I agree with the "part of the fandom" that says that "Holdo's Hyperspace Jump" was generally not in the best interest of Star Wars. However, there is a way to fix it within reasonable explanations, but the problem is that starship combat in Star Wars becomes nothing but preventing your enemy from hyper-ramming your ships in terms of excitement in space battles.

No more WWII dogfights, or torpedo runs. The rebels could have just destroyed the Death Star by hyperspacing a bunch of transports and fighters into it. In fact, why didn't they just "sacrifice" one of the Nebulon-B Frigates at the outset of TLJ to destroy the dreadnought, and the whole fleet?

 

Exactly, why didn't the other captains who "went down with the ship" during the space chase go for a suicide run? The technology just becomes too impactful imo. We went over the parallels to WW2 a few months ago, which is appropriate because space battles in SW behave as fantastical reimaginings of WW2 movies, but there was no technology back then which could accelerate destroyers or aircraft carriers to hyper-sonic speeds in less than a second. I think we just have to accept that the Holdo Maneuver was never intended to operate in conjunction with the "rules" established over 30 years of SW movies, it exists all on its own.

I've been following/contributing to this debate ever since TLJ came out, in this thread and all the others. Today was the first time I saw an explanation that seems to work (the Supremacy's hyperspace tracker being Holdo's target) and the only reason I can accept it is because it imagines the maneuver as an actually unprecedented scenario. The arcane mechanics of how hyperspace happens doesn't really matter, just that there is a plausible explanation for why this particular situation is different. There has never been that kind of technology before (the tracker) and therefore there hasn't been an opportunity to target a ship with a hyperspace ram.

 

At least a 90° turn? Where? I see a 10° at most, pitch down.

 

How often is a big enough ship at close enough range with the ability to get pointed in the right direction.

It didn't look hard because most of the pieces had fallen into place. She didn't know or need to know what Hux was doing - she didn't know it would work but she went for it anyway. Knowing that Hux was ignoring the main ship was not part of the thought process,. She may very well have thought it wasn't going to work, but worth a shot. It was a desperation move.

Hux looks surprised, because he realizes the mistake too late. As unlikely as it was, it was clear what was about to happen.

None of it's in the movie, thank goodness. Star Wars has never walked us through this kind of tedious details. That's been the role of books and ancillary materials. And it's there for those that like it.
But this is a rational explanation for the reasonable level of suspension of disbelief that the scene deserves. It's enough for me, and I am aware of the TLJ problems. But just like I don't think that holding our hands through 30 years of Luke's post ROTJ arc is necessary to allow us to find him where he is, I don't think explanations of hyperspace are necessary. Many disagree with me, and that's fine, but I'll defend this or any movie from what I can only call the "marvel / tell use everything" syndrome.

 

I think there is a point to be made regarding "artistic license" vs "realism." To answer the general responses: The Star Destroyer is able to make a 90 degree turn in the full cut of the film (as I said, the only available YouTube video was the one I posted.) However, without taking a literal stopwatch to time events in TLJ and ESB, I believe it is plausible for a 1600 meter craft to make the necessary maneuver in a short period of time. If they can't, then the First Order should address that, because RJ created some serious "artistic drama" issue with Holdo's maneuver, which I elaborated on earlier: space battles become an arms race on how to counter the enemy from ramming your entire fleet with a single cruiser. or worse yet, build robot ramships whose sole purpose is to be anti-ship/anti-planetary hyperspace ballistic missiles! I haven't done the physics calculations, but I am guessing an object the size of a Mon Calamari Cruiser hitting a planet at near the speed of light would probably create a "mass driver" strike that would either obliterate the planet or make it difficult to inhabit due to similar things regarding the KT Extinction of the dinosaurs on Earth.

For that matter, Poe lost some bombers and fighters to destroy an Imperial Dreadnought (i am guessing it is similar in cost and capability to Vader's Executor). Holdo sacrificed a Mon Calamari Cruiser, essentially, a vital aircraft carrier (and anyone remotely familiar with WWII knows the importance and value of carriers) to destroy their "Task Force" (Don't tell me that the flotilla Hux had with him was the entirety of the Imperial Navy. I don't buy this anymore than destroying 5 planets in a galaxy with millions of habitable planets is going to seriously harm a Republic greater than the size of the Federation in Star Trek.) Holdo's actions were no more "reckless" or whatever, than Poe's at the start of the film.

Ill note that Poe's losses (according to the tactical screen Leia looks at) are a bargain compared to the multiple dozens of aircraft lost (including bombers): Carrier engagements just to destroy one Japanese carrier could cost the U.S. multiple squadrons of dive/conventional bombers (a squadron is 12 aircraft, generally). Particularly at Midway, where the U.S. lost 150 fighters/bombers to destroyer just 3 Japanese carriers. That's very rough cost of 50 aircraft lost per carrier sunk. Poe did it for only maybe a dozen? total spacecraft lost, for a an enemy asset worth a thousand carriers.

 

Holdo's actions are very reckless. They are completely out of desperation. Recklessness made sense at that moment. The Mon Calamari ship was a loss regardless.

It's drifting off-topic, but worthy of a response.

 

I watched that scene again on the DVD. There is no 90° turn. Two SD travelling one direction the whole time with a 3rd travelling the opposite direction. It is this 3rd SD that takes evasive action downwards and sideways to port to avoid the high bridge colliding with the starboard edge of the main hull of the other SD. Problem is the view from the bridge should be a mirrored version of what we see. They should be looking out the starboard side at the other SD not the port side.

 

Yeah, it isn't 90 degrees (my memory faded), but it still executes a fast course change in a fairly short amount of time. Something I was surprised to see an ISD do when I saw ESB. However, it is still executing an emergency maneuver very quickly to dodge another starship when they were imminently about to collide.

 

There is actually very little course change. Maybe a shift sideways of half a width of a SD but then you see the two travelling the same direction are further apart so that means the SD on the far left was also evading sideways in the opposite direction, meaning each had only moved a quarter of their own width sideways. Anyway this is off topic. I see no way a ship the size of Snoke's could evade a ship that wanted to ram it from its front. Even at real space speeds, Holdo could probably still have crashed into it. I think that would have been cooler to see a slower impact. Seeing the effect of two shields colliding, the Raddus punching through and ploughing into the Supremacy as the the self destruct counts down to zero.

 

Only if they know how to get through the shields ie. the fractional rotation rate. At some point in the ST, they learned how the FO shields work - it's how Han landed the Falcon on Starkiller. Knowing that is what prevented Holdo from going splat.

Maybe because they didn't want to 'sacrifice' one of their biggest assets. Just a guess.

 

To take out the entire fleet that's chasing them? Sacrifice one ship to save all the others? Seems an easy decision to me.

Actually, he reverted back to realspace after passing the shields (which didn't exist in hyperspace), but was too close to the planet to prevent crashing into it. He had a very narrow space to maneuver in between the shields and the surface of the planet. Not to mention the effect of flying through hyperspace near a gravity well, which he alluded to in ANH.

 

Yeah and this is such a ridiculous part of TFA. I could accept a powerful jedi like Anakin doing this, but not someone with no super powers, that is relying on pure luck (of an unimaginably fantastic scale). The real OT Han Solo couldn't and wouldn't try to do that. Neither could he or would he try to shoot stormtroopers behind his back. /offtopic

 

That's what they did : /

LOL I just got actually'd.

Anyway, I wasn't talking about what he did after passing the shields - I was talking about what he did to get through them in the first place:

HAN
Their shields have a fractional refresh rate. Keeps anything traveling slower than lightspeed from getting through.

FINN
We're gonna make our landing approach at lightspeed?!

So the Resistance knowing that you can get through shields at lightspeed meant that Holdo didn't just splat like a fly on a windshield which is what would happen to any old Joe trying to pull it off without that insider knowledge.

 

Han had to save the dude with "super powers"....twice.

It's been well established throughout the OT that Han is a fantastic pilot.

 

I don't understand your point. Han saved Luke a number of times yes. But he didn't need super powers (inhuman abilities) himself to do that. Being a fantastic pilot is not a superpower. Randomly shooting someone at a distance like you have eyes in the back of your head is. As is pulling a lever with such timing accuracy. Han basically used the same power that Luke used to destroy the DS1, but at an immeasurably more difficult scale.

 

The shooting was just Han showing off...peripheral vision is a real thing.

And Luke's attack was immeasurably harder, since he had to have perfect timing while in hot pursuit. Han just had to stick the landing....which he barely did.

Plus, Han has been flying for decades on a ship highly modified by him. He knows exactly what that ship is capable of.

 

Not at 180° it isn't. That wasn't Han Solo there. That was Indiana Jones. Completely out of place in Star Wars.

The exhaust port and Luke's x-wing would have been coming together at maybe a few thousand miles per hour. Luke had to time his pressing of the trigger by using a supernatural sense. The Falcon was travelling towards starkiller base in hyperspace at faster than lightspeed, so even if the Falcon computer could inform Han when to pull the hyperspace lever, by the time the light from the computer display had reached Han's eyes and he has been able to react to it, the falcon would be half way through the planet. So either the computer knows to ridiculous accuracy how fast Han will react, or Han is using a supernatural sense and knows to ridiculous accuracy the deactivation point on the hyperspace lever.

 

And the acceleration/decceleration would kill them all. It's fantasy that can't stand up to this scrutiny.

 

In my opinion there is no realspace acceleration/deceleration when jumping to and from hyperspace. Yeah it is fantasy. But in fantasy if there is a character that is known to not be able to use magic, you would question it if he suddenly did something magical.

 

I agree that the odds of Han timing that hyperspace exit just right are literally astronomical. But Han never listens to the odds anyway.

And it's not an impossibility according to what we know of SW tech. It's just very highly stupendously unlikely. But not impossible. Han's luck always seems to run hot and cold, and he got lucky. Crazy mind-blowingly lucky. I can live with that.

 

"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck."

I think ANH kinda gives us a hint at irony: "There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny."

I'm not saying Han is Force-sensitive, but I wouldn't be surprised if he were Force-assisted.

 

Yeah, the Force uses Han, even though Han doesn't use the Force.

 

'Cause Star Wars and Indiana Jones aren't basically tonally identical or anything.

 

Indiana Jones and Han Solo are not the same character. They don't have the same skills. Jones often does things by being incredibly lucky as well as skillful. He could take that no look gunshot and you'd laugh and say "wow that was lucky" and because there is no force or magic you do not question it further. Solo was never super lucky before TFA. He did things by cheating the odds through skill and intelligence.

 

They're not the same character, no. But they're in the same spot on the "pulp story" spectrum and realm of what flies and what doesn't believability-wise, cooked up by the same guy.

Han was never super-lucky before the ST? Parking his ship on a capital ship and not being caught out, escaping giant space-slugs' maws with a second to spare, blowing the baddest-baddass-in-the-galaxy's (a guy with borderline precognitive reaction time) wingmen to hell and damaging his ship before he can do jack about it. Killing the dude who'd just turned him into a freakin' wall ornament for a few months/a year, while blind and with a major chemical hangover.

Nah, sheer dumb luck never played into Han's adventures. That doesn't preclude skill of course, guy's grizzled and with experience on his hands in the mud of the world, but this guy's got a little lucky space-leprechaun on his shoulder for sure.

And what's "cheating the odds" if not luck, anyway? None of Han's shenanigans should pan out. They do because he's a reckless wascally wabbit and fate hasn't bitten him in the ass yet.