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Aliens of the Empire (Part 2 now up)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Rogue_Follower, Nov 6, 2007.

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  1. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    about Gektls, I found one in my kitchen the other day, but I believe he was a civilian, not a Major;)

    personally, I so love seeing Marvel aliens getting their dues...this is the greatest thing to bring Marvel back into mainstream canon since the end of Gamer. I must admit I now want to do an RPG mission about the Gektls invading Shimholt or something. Clash of the Saurians! For that matter, I don't recall there even being proper RPG stats for Kaleesh yet, but Sk'ar needs to get involved SOMEhow. And stink, Pera can join the fray too;)

    Genetics terrorist....what was this terrorist DOING to S'kytri genetics?

    Intriguing note: Gamer 1 acutally claims the S'kytri are near-humans. I wonder if they realize they are descended from "walkers"? Their wings hardly seem a natural mutation, but we know near-humans can be created artifiicially, so the entire S'kytri race may very well have been CREATED by a geneticist, so maybe this genetics terrorist was trying to build on existing work. Perhaps it was a multi-generational secret program?

    Edit: on the subject of destroyed worlds and Imp aliens: Carida

    according to canon, the few Caridans surviving incl offworld agents of the New Republic. Don't you imagine they were upset the New Republic they were fighting for let Kyp off the hook for blowing up their world, after "Remember Alderaan" had been a Rebel recruitment slogan? Must have wondered if their majority Imperial-loyalist brethren had been right all along. I imagine them defecting en masse to the Imperial Remnant and putting up massive bounties and assassin contracts on Kyp.
     
  2. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    some thoughts on Gordian Reach

    Nivers controlled Tandankin only one day, after the Battle of Endor. Here is my speculative timeline

    1) Tarkin is Grand Moff of Oversector Outer, incl. Gordian Reach; at this time, Matrin is a Senator

    2) Emperor disbands Senate and Tarkin dies; Gordian Reach is made part of Grand Moff Vellam's Bright Jewel Oversector

    3) due to the failure of the Yavin Blockade, Gordian Reach is removed from Vellam's oversector, and made part of "Kessel Oversector" under Grand Moff Hissa, who appoints ex-Senator Matrin Governor of Stenos

    4) the Stenaxes kill Matrin for violating Vol

    5) the Emperor dies, and Isard and Hissa end up in opposing factions

    6) Isard's faction takes Gordian Reach from Hissa and Isard appoints HER own Grand Moff over it, Nivers

    7) as part of taking over Gordian Reach, Nivers occupies Tandankin, but that same day the planet is liberated by Rogue Squadron
     
  3. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2005
    An awesome article.

    I'm particularly struck by the similarities between Anakin's relationship with Kharys and Qui-gon's relationship with Anakin. Both found a promising Force-sensitive on a backwater world while on an important mission. Both were turned down by their superiors when they to induct the candidate into the Jedi Order because the candidate was too old, and both promised, in spite of their superior's orders, to train the candidate anyway. I wonder whether Anakin was conscious of the similarity, and if it in fact played a role in his promise to her.

    Anyway, warning! Incoming wall of text!

    Alas, the piece of real artwork that Thrawn kept of the race was a bizarre, writhing statue, not a mask. ;-)

    This particular retcon is the most strained to me, though I've realized after re-reading the sources that it's not as bad as I thought when I started typing.

    The same way that a certain species from Earth has both Danny DeVito and Shaquille O'Neal as representatives.

    Yes, the height is a problem much moreso than the other traits, but . . .

    . . . this is a really nice explanation for it.

    No need for different subspecies; height, skin, and eye color are all well within the bounds of individual variation. What matters is that the morphologies are similar enough, which they are, at least within the "Marvel art margin of error."

    That last one is probably the biggest one, since it's one of two that has a whole issue devoted to it, and the only one with a whole issue devoted to it that WASN'T a story told from on character to another (which wound up saving Hoth Stuff). I applaud whoever successfully makes that story work as well as this article and History of the Mandalorians make their respective discrepancies work out.

    Glad at least some of that article is making its way out through other means.

    Heh, there's a lot in this article that must have felt a little bit self-indulgent when you were writing it. An article with both Halagad and "the coming of the Waru" playing prominent roles, let alone a revisitation of topics previously fixed by you like the Empire Reborn, must have felt a little surreal.

    Speaking of Waru, I must quote my favorite line of the whole article . . . "Unfazed, Hethrir took the most logical course of action: He cut a deal with the thing." :-D

     
  4. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    did Thrawn buy Necrosis mask before or after he destroyed Kalee?

    was the mad geneticist on Skye by any chance B. Gog, the mad geneticist in AitE Part 1?

    If Rahz's control was over planets in his own system, were Harix and Suprema's homeworld in the SAME system as Rahz's homeworld?
     
  5. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    :eek: You would, wouldn't you! [face_laugh]

    Explains why Vader tortured you so badly. :D

    *bows in respect*

    I agree with jS that the idea of tying in Kalee to the writhing waterfall artwork, seems a little forced; but it doesn't seem absolutely fixed, yet....

    From memory, the quote runs something like: "The one species whose art I never understood," Thrawn said wistfully. "I ended up destroying their world. Now, after all these years, I think I'm finally beginning to understand them."

    How badly wrong was I? [face_mischief]

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
  6. TalonCard

    TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2001
    >Alas, the piece of real artwork that Thrawn kept of the race was a bizarre, writhing statue, not a mask. ;-)
    This particular retcon is the most strained to me, though I've realized after re-reading the sources that it's not as bad as I thought when I started typing.<

    Let's not forget that Thrawn actually obtained the mask when he was an Admiral...that is, after he had destroyed Kalee and presumably obtained the writhing statue.

    TC
     
  7. Halagad_Ventor

    Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2001
    I do wonder what color Sk'ar's skin would've been if Marvel hadn't had such a limited color palette back in the day. The Emperor's robe was also purple in issue #68.

    Yes, that's certainly possible. The description only has to be true enough to remain accurate in relation to other established uses/exploitations of the word.

    On behalf of both Rich and myself, thank you. And congratulations to you on having the Dusty Duck rank in the Top 100 StarWars.com databank entries. Quite an achievement. =D=

    Well, I think that acronym alone just about doomed the possibility of such a project.

    Personally, I would love to write such a guide, but the fact is the market for such a quasi-specific topic just isn't as big as for something concerete like "Characters" or "Droids." Sort of like promoting, The Essential Guide to Etcetera. Not that some of the most interesting stuff isn't in there, but it's clearly a niche market, in business terms.

    Powerful editors sayeth, "Kaleesh," and it was so.

    Good one!

    High praise. Thanks Lord_Hydronium.

    This retcon's been on the back burner for about a decade, so it's had time to gestate. Here's my basic reasoning, as posted to the [link=http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=243200&start=480]StarWars.com message boards[/link]:

    The story you're referring to is Star Wars Annual #1: The Long Hunt. The story doesn't actually take place pre-ANH, but incorporates background involving the Clone Wars. And yes, as you've mentioned, it's implied that a team of three Jedi, including Obi-Wan and both of his apprentices Anakin and Darth Vader, helped save a planet called Skye from disaster.

    ....I'll probably blog with more specifics some time soon, but the gist is that the comic never explicitly names Anakin as the third Jedi besides Obi-Wan and "Darth Vader." Despite this, it was still a very tricky fix that required our establishing that Halagad and Anakin traded lightsabers prior to the mission to Skye, a possibility established in a much later Star Wars comic series called Emissaries to Malastare.

    Halagad was a good candidate to be the third Jedi, since the rpg module that introduces the character, Domain of Evil, establishes that he served under General Kenobi during the Clone Wars. The same book has Darth Vader ominously referring to Halagad as "old friend" just before torturing him quite thoroughly. As such, it seemed reasonable to me that the three of them would have gone on some missions together during the Clone Wars, the one to Skye among them.
     
  8. The_Four_Dot_Elipsis

    The_Four_Dot_Elipsis Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2005
    The more I think about this Atha Prime = Shadowspawn thing, the more my brain tries to comprehend how potentially (more) awesome SOM might be...

    Maybe we really should rough up Mr. Stover. In a dingy alley. And make sure he does the damn retcon.



    "Now you listen, Woodring, and you listen real good. This is the age of ass kicking, and I've saved the worst for you. Lord Shadowspawn is Atha Prime."

    "Who?"

    "Some canceled toy thing. Get it? Got it? Good."



    But seriously, it'll likely still be awesome, Atha Prime or not. Though Star Wars fans, above all, should know to not get too excited for something that has the potential to be great.

    *Goes and watches the AOTC "Clone War" trailer non-stop for two hours.*
     
  9. Cull_Tremayne

    Cull_Tremayne Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 27, 2005
    I don't think that really makes sense in the context of the comic though. They knew one of the three Jedi was Vader, they knew that Obi-Wan was there, and they new that a Jedi carrying Anakin Skywalker's lightsaber was there. If it wasn't Obi-Wan or the guy carrying Anakin's saber (Halagad), then I think they could probably figure out which Jedi was Vader. It would seem odd to me if they never learned the name of Anakin Skywalker while he was fighting there, and only later equated that Jedi with Vader. Or maybe Kharys told her people that Skywalker's name was Vader after the fact?
     
  10. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    Four Dot...are you actually Danny Kay?

    nitpick: Abel, I caught your mistake! Hethrir met the cloned Emperor, according to your article, 10 years after Endor, while in reality it was 10 years after Yavin.
     
  11. Halagad_Ventor

    Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2001
    This was the part of the retcon that, try as I might, I couldn't address without getting significantly off topic. Of course, the irony is that, though Luke may be confused as to which Jedi his father is, his father was there and his father did help save the planet. He just didn't know that his father was Vader.

    Luke after Empire:

    "Oh my god, Vader is my father... hey, waitaminute. That guy Aragh said my father and Vader were with Obi-Wan at Skye. Wait, no he didn't. He said I bore his lightsaber. So Obi-Wan and my father, who is Darth Vader, helped save Skye, but then whose !@#$*& lightsaber is this?!"

    Ironically again, it actually still is Luke's father's. Those wacky Jedi!

    Yes, I'm fond of that too. As Rich couldn't remember anything he'd intended for the guy beyond his name, I don't think he'd be adverse to marry it to an image in the future if possible.

    Thanks for the compliments Cull. Yes, the introduction of the Concordance of Fealty by writer Tim Truman was itself a retcon, which meant having it pull double duty all these years later for a story from so long ago was all the sweeter.

    Incidentally, you can read how impressed *I* originally was with Truman's lightsaber trick [link=http://blogs.starwars.com/abelgpena/82/comments]here[/link].

    As it stands, I believe this becomes a matter of taste. Strictly speaking, I believe that we can assume one of several things: 1) That all S'kytri are ignorant as to which of the three Jedi saviors Darth Vader is, and therefore Aragh's "reveal" to Luke is only a product of Luke thinking he's put two and two together; 2) Same as above, except Kharys was able to figure out, or at least suspect, that Darth Vader's true identity was Anakin Skywalker; 3) The S'kytri somehow at least know that Obi-Wan wasn't Darth Vader, and therefore know that he was either Anakin or Halagad, but not which (Luke therefore is still the one doing all the mental gymnastics) 4) The S'kytri know that Anakin is Vader, but they *don't* know that Halagad was bearing Anakin's lightsaber at the time, and vice versa; 5) The S'kytri *do* know all of the above, and Aragh *is* therefore trying to break things gently to Luke (this seems to me somewhat improbable, but not impossible); 6) The S'kytri believe that Darth Vader is in fact Halagad Ventor, perhaps because when Vader returned for Kharys, he said something like "Kenobi and Skywalker are dead," leaving out Halagad to purposely mislead the S'kytri or because he simply hadn't caught him yet.

    I leave any other possibilities to be sorted out by more patient minds.

    I actually have only gotten around to the Hitchhiker's series this year. Well, I'd seen the movie, which was enjoyable, but there's no comparison. Terrific stuff. I was reading the fir
     
  12. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Ooh, I like this one. Nice, simple, sneaky, subversive . . . and very interesting.
     
  13. Halagad_Ventor

    Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2001
    Arrrgggh ... self-inflicted continuity errors, my only weakness!!

    But this isn't one, actually. The ten-year marker you're referring to doesn't denote the precise time at which the reborn Emperor returned, but the rest of Hethrir's life span (the return of the Emperor being one of the most significant events during that time).
     
  14. Halagad_Ventor

    Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2001
    Thank you, Admiral.

    I like it when aliens play against type, but no, she's not in the cards.

    Star Wars Annual #3? Yes, I remember reading in the Marvel letters column (of a different issue) that the editors simply assumed Luke somehow retrieved his lightsaber lost at Cloud City. There could be a story there, of course, but to postulate that Luke is simplifying the truth in that scenario for some reason is a bearable placeholder.

    Ah.

    Ya win some, ya lose some. That's how the ball bounces in this biz.

    Ha!

    I think the entire series getting reprinted was probably the best thing. Even in 2004, I remember there was still some reluctance at Polyhedron to accept the Marvels as canonical. At least, that was the reason given by the editor when Rich and myself pitched a piece on the House of Tagge. Perhaps merely a convenient excuse. o_O

    How about the 'borg in issue 7? Let it be known that the term originated in Star Wars over a decade before Star Trek.

    Sometimes, but very rarely, do I these things too far ahead. Usually I just have a vague idea of what I think would or should happen, and try to establish enough to cover that. Otherwise, you might just be setting yourself up for disappointment if Lucasfilm doesn't approve of your detailed idea. You always have to anticipate that.

    Thank you, j.

    I honestly can't say whether that parallel was intentional or not anymore, but in any case, establishing that kind of relationship between Kharys and Anakin felt true to his character. That, of course, is one of the great abstract tragedies of Anakin's story: what if he'd been Qui-Gon's Padawan?

    It seems that many of Darth Vader's apprentices are often taken, at least partly, due to some ulterior m
     
  15. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    wow, my speculation brought Abel to reveal a neat tidbit there


    Hmm, tying in Galaxy of Fear and Atha Prime...two somewhat obscure francishes both aimed at kids...I love it.

    now we understand the double hull Star Destroyer, one hull for Atha's experiments, one for Gog's

    well, now, I am going to go out on a real limb.

    Gog's experiments resulted in a bizarre mutant human with three eyes

    S'kytri are acc to Gamer 1 near-humans with wings

    Atha Prime is an Imperial cloner

    Gog and Atha Prime were studying the genetic mutation that gave the S'kytri wings. They then intended to introduce this mutation to clone trooper stock and try to breed winged aerial cloned Stormtroopers;)
     
  16. Rogue_Follower

    Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2003
    That's interesting. Perhaps there's a trademark or copyright issue with the name? [face_thinking]

    There's precedent, what with the [link=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sunrider_naming_controversy]stupid Sunrider situation[/link] and all... [face_plain]
     
  17. JMM

    JMM Author: The Forgotten War, SW Fact File star 3 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 1998
    Maybe I'm a little late to the party here but, The Essential Guide to Obscurity? Interesting idea, but shouldn't the title be Star Wars: The Non-Essential Guide?

    And as for Luke having his lightsaber after TESB, that's not his old lightsaber. That's Orman Tagge's lightsaber that Luke picked up and kept with him after Vader tricked him into killing the Baron. Haven't we been over this all ready, Abel? :) OK, so that isn't an official retcon or anything, but it SHOULD be. I mean, honestly, where else would he get a lightsaber?

    I like how Marvel assumed he retrieved his old one. Of course, isn't it possible the editors and writers noticed this, but figured there's no way they were gonna have a SW comic with no lightsaber for three years. It was bad enough they had no Han Solo to use.
     
  18. TalonCard

    TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2001
    >There could be a story there, of course, but to postulate that Luke is simplifying the truth in that scenario for some reason is a bearable placeholder.<

    True, but on the other hand we have AOTC and the Clone Wars cartoon which established that: a, Anakin had a tendancy to lose lightsabers, and b, Anakin lost a lightsaber on Yavin IV. So perhaps there's some additional elements that can be brought to play, without having to justify Luke's statement in the Annual.

    >and with every spare second I had going into writing the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide,<

    Waaait a minute; this is the first I've heard of this! When was the official announcment?

    >I'm inclined to say after, because I think it's something that should happen earlier in Thrawn's career. It leaves him with the nagging question later in life whether his "failure" had been due to youth or a fundamental flaw in his powers of comprehension.<

    Then there's also the whole Captain/Admiral rank thing...

    TC
     
  19. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2003
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/27831130/p1/?23]Link![/link]
     
  20. Halagad_Ventor

    Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2001
    I have, haven't I?

    There were few words to do it in, but set up some conflict between Anakin and Halagad on the Skye mission in order to give a foundation of resentment to Vader's sweet pre-torture speech in Domain of Evil. Halagad's putting his two cents in that Kharys is too old for training is pretty interesting too, since he was likely even older than Anakin when he finally found a master to train him.

    How badly wrong was Thrawn? I think that's pretty close.

    Good point. There is some wiggle room in the title, of course. Admiral or not, when you captain a ship, it's fair game to refer to you as Captain So-and-So.

    The writhing statue and Grievous/Necrosis' mask would've definitely been two distinct art samples from the Kaleesh that Thrawn possessed, no question. With the Grievous connection and Thrawn's failure to understand them, it'd be surprising if he didn't have a few more. Whether its the writhing statue or a different piece, I like to think the rival Kaleesh general gave Thrawn a piece of artwork as a little defiant/provactive/respectful gesture. (I'm sure there's a word for that, it's killing me).

    Yes, how could one fail with such a persuasive arguement?

    Yes. I admit that when I heard about Shadows of Mindor, I was noticeably conflicted between my feelings about the inevitability of having my Shadowspawn background overruled (the second time, now), however unwittingly, and joy at hearing Matt Stover would be the one to tell that story. As I said, clinging desperately to your uber-kewl idea isn't very healthy in a shared universe like Star Wars.

    The loop hole, for now, is that even though the S'kytri knew who all the Jedi saviors were, which I'll grant, they may or may not have known that Anakin and Halagad had switched lightsabers.

    So, in the context of what's established in the comic, when Vader comes to town, the S'kytri may likely know (somehow) that he isn't Obi-Wan, but don't necessarily know if he's Anakin or Halagad. Until that's established, eagle-eyed Aragh may have simply recognized the lightsaber Luke ca
     
  21. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Hey, that's our question!:p
     
  22. The_Four_Dot_Elipsis

    The_Four_Dot_Elipsis Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Curious thing about that is that Mr. Windham seems to have retconned the "Clone Wars" saber to be the ROTS saber, despite the contrary appearance in the show. The text claims that the saber that we know and love from ROTS/ANH/ESB is Skywalker's second lightsaber, and furthermore, the Chris Trevas illustrations of the Yavin IV duel show him wielding that second saber, as opposed to the replica of the first he was swinging in the show.

    [face_thinking]

    Lightsabers appear to be the continuity nightmares of Star Wars.
     
  23. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think we'll probably find the Secret Apprentice is the "Pre-Luke" and probably reminds Anakin of himself at his age. The boy seems to be clearly brooding and awkward, which are the best words to describe AOTC Anakin.
     
  24. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    I always thought the Clone Wars saber was intended to be the one from ROTS/ANH/TESB, because Anakin is relieved of it during the battle but it isn't actually lost or destroyed. It just bounces down the steps of the temple. That stood out to me. I thought if they really wanted it lost at that point, Ventress would have destroyed the hilt.
     
  25. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    I find it surprisng Halagad opposed Kharys being trained, since he himself was older than Anakin when he became a Jedi and was practically self-taught. He's even more non-traditional than the Almas students. I still want a fuller explanation of why the Council tolerated Almas. You'd think Qui-Gon would have just gone straight to Lanius instead of Yoda. Lanius would have no problem letting a 9-year old in the Order.
     
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