Lit All the Sith... Sith naming ceremonies and essence transfer

In ROTS, when Palpatine gives Anakin his Sith name, he looks like he searches the Force for it instead of choosing it himself. As if it is something given by some entity/god or mysterious collective of the Dark Side. (All the previous Sith within him?) Legends had a collection of ancient Sith Spirits on Korriban consulted by Palpatine in person in Dark Empire.

The Rule of Two states the master holds the power until the apprentice can take it from him. Yet Darth Plagueis novel and Book of Sith showed that Essence Transfer (as in Dark Empire comics) is a failsafe for the Master to take over the apprentice body and cheat death, if winning the battle of the minds.

Theoretically there can be Sith lineages of the same Sith bodyhopping multiple times (aka Seth Harth, Valkorion) living near eternally. Sith Dynasties so to speak. But lines of bodyhopping can be broken and a new apprentice becomes the master free of the old, not taken over.

Did, whenever Sith history changed significantly, the apprentice win the battle of minds and forge a new path? F.e. the Banite line, did Darth Bane break the continous line of previous Sith and start fresh with the Rule of Two? Who did carry the Master-Apprentice Sith mainline in times of many Sith around in previous times?

Did Palpatine tell the story of Plagueis the Wise because... Plagueis is a part of him now, took him over? Why call his master "wise"? Selflauding or admiration?

Palpatines first apprentice, Maul has a stunning body and agility.. he was trained for it, not needed for brains, cause Palpatine would be the brains literally once he took over said body. But it came down different. He took Dooku, old in age, knowing he will not be jumped into but used up and discarded, bidding his time for Anakins body and Chosen Blood. When Anakin got damaged though on Mustafar he saved him and tried to heal him but never enough to make him a suiteable candidate. He still had immeasurable power as Vader, but Palpatine was hesitant to attempt transfer into a broken shell. Thus he set eyes on Luke.

Back to the beginning, how important or special is it to take a Sith name? How is the apprentice prepared slowly for a takeover?

The naming ceremony seems like a ritual that binds Master and Apprentice together closer than before, like initiating a Force Bond. A Dyad is rare and occures naturally, Force bonds of all kinds exist, some initiated some formed naturally.

The text of the Rule of Two is near-similiar to the text about a Force Dyad as per TROS VD!

Lets analyse how that can be so similiar and how it can't:

"One to embody the power, the other to crave it"

The master teaches his apprentice everything, every last secret but in an order that allows the apprentice to only best the master once he learned it all and is ready to be taken over, eventually.

A dyad, the perfect Force bond, allows powers no ordinary Force user could wield. Including teleportation and other arcane powers. Briding minds is one thing, but merging two people in a dyad is like they are one, two halves of the same coin. And that is exactly what is needed for essence transfer!!!

An artificially created Force bond between Master and Apprentice needs to be nurtured to be as close to being a true Dyad as possible for essence transfer to work. Better even if it evolves into a dyad. Allowing unprecedented connection and thus easier transfer to a new host. Like teleporting ones mind into anothers and pushing the other out?

Is this how the Rule of Two, which is tied to essence transfer bodyhopping, fits in with the Force Dyad text? Are the Sith trying to create a Dyad situation unnaturally to achieve godhood and eternal life via transfer?

So the Master's plan goes as following:

1) Select an apprentice worthy in body and mind
2) Initiate a Force Bond
3) Hollow out the apprentices personality, motives, everthing until he is just an empty tool unwilling to be himself. (Like Vader hated himself after ROTS and did everything to not be his old self anymore)
4) Fill this empty shell with Sith Lore and hatred for his Master
5) Increase the bond to near Dyad levels
6) Initiate the final ritual when the apprentice kills the Master to take him over


Now to something interesting: Given Vader was broken, Palpatine never fully shared a near-dyad Forcebond with him. Palpatine sensed darkness in the Unknown Regions but Vader did not! They couldn't be more separated. But there was someone Palpatine was connected to, much much closer! Mara Jade! I do wonder... did he consider her for a takeover potentially? Even if interim only?

 

Regarding Mara Jade, she was supposedly the only one who could sense/hear his call from across the galaxy.

 

this reminds of me of Jedi Knight when Jerec absorbed the Valley of the Jedi and after Kyle killed him, the spirits of the Jedi were released. Makes me wonder if after Rey killed Palpatine, all of the Sith "spirits" were "released" or destroyed completely.

 

Rey had to be of Palpatine's bloodline inorder for his spirit to pass into her and possess her body according to the movie, and not only that, but she also had to inherit his power which her father did not.

The Sovereign Protectors were walking around her and ready to kill her if she did not kill Palpatine, and he wanted Rey dead for most of the movie, the ritual thing made no sense even in the movie.

The Rule of Two is relatively modern, since Darth Bane only goes back 1,000 years in Star Wars history.

We don't see nor hear any Sith Spirits anywhere, its nothing like the old Jedi Knight game and not really like Dark Empire either.

Palpatine's line is a egomaniacal throwaway cringy line in the end like "I am the Senate". Also being that the SIth fight eachother even in the Rule of Two, its doubtful they'd all want to be in one body either at their own accord or trapped through Sith Eternal's dark science and alchemy.

Another problem with this movie's Sith ritual stuff , is she did exactly what he wanted her to do in the end, which was kill him. SO technically his spirit should've entered her. Or even if it didn't, killing him again, does not mean he's dead since he blew up twice already in ROTJ,lol. He could have other clone labs of himself or Snoke or whatever else that was going on with the Sith Eternal and their dark science and alchemy.

I think Rey needs an exorcist anyhow, cause the idea of Jedi ghosts and spirits talking to her and passing through her body to give her power and help is devil type stuff regardless,lol.

 

When he wanted her to kill him, I think it was using her lightsaber to stab him, not direct his power back at him.

That's like saying Harry Potter "killed" Voldemort, even though the Elder Wand refused to harm its true master and the Killing Curse was reflected back at Voldemort.

 

reminds me of this fanfilm:

 

Palpatine's original plan was to find young Rey, bringher to Exegol, have her raised as a Sith by his cultists and then when the time was right, perform the ritual and take over her body. Rey's parents hid her from him so he had to find Ben Solo instead and use him to eliminate the last Jedi....when Kylo first comes to see Palpatine, Palpatine wants him to kill Rey who represents a true threat to the Sith now. When Ben is redeemed he says Leia has disrupted his plan so he reverts to luring Rey there to try to take her over.

 

Actually no, cause Palpatine was interested in Ben/Kylo from infancy on which predates Rey's birth by a decade!

 

True, but when he realizes he has a granddaughter, he then turns his attention back to her. Depending on when her parents are killed and when Kylo turns against Luke and the other Jedi, then Palpatine uses Snoke to lure Kylo.

He almost always has a contingency.

 

I feel like sending Luke a redhead agent to get pregnant would have been easier... wait.. where did I see that before?

 

If Rey did kill Palpatine by striking him down with her weapon, then the movie makes it clear that she would have gone to the Dark Side.

What I'm still a bit unclear on is whether upon doing so Palpatine would take over her body and mind, or if she would just absorb all of his power and become corrupted.

 

Nothing says that Rey’s father didn’t have the power, or that she had to be of his bloodline. Quite the opposite. It shows that every Sith possessed the next upon killing the master while dark, and explains why Palpatine wants Luke to strike him down in ROTJ. It also makes a clear point that Rey’s father CHOSE to be a “nobody” and on the run.

 

Actually the movie said that. Rey had power, Sheev's power. Not sure what movie or franchise you're following. Her dad did not inherit it thats why he was allowed to live for a while as he was not much of a threat to him(and remained a nobody by choice) . Sheev gave the kill order on his son after he refused to give up his daughter. Thats why Palpatine needed his son's offspring for the ritual and waited decades as he found out somehow she was Force sensitive and inherited his power. You're assuming body jumping spirits or superpowers of the some of old EU or Highlander when that is not case of the Sith Order. Palpatine and the Sith Eternal had the ritual thing concocted cause of the state of Palpatine at this point in the story. Was not something he had planned for Luke.

 

Yes, Rey had his inherited connection to the Force.

That’s a point to saying her father did too.

And nothing about that meaning it’s necessary to be possessed by him.

I really don’t get how you got the opposite interpretation of what the movie clearly intended.

 

I think it's unreasonable to claim that it was clear what the movie intended anything to do with Palpatine. That said, I tend towards the same conclusions. I walked out of the theater assuming Rey's father was strong in the Force - even though that raises the question of why he was willing to kill Jr. to get to Rey. Maybe he thought Rey as a child would be easier to take over than Jr. as an adult. Or maybe he wanted a couple extra decades before he has to do it again. Early dialogue between Rey and Palpatine made me think that he needed to jump to a blood relative (hence his particular interest in drawing Rey to him). However, later dialogue gave me the impression that they may be implying body hopping as part of Sith succession.

 

yah it seems to me the movie added a wrinkle to the Rule of Two, the reason there's only two is that all the Sith live in the Master, and when the Apprentice killed the Master, they take his power and all of the Sith live in them.

Like the movie shows them all there, their spirits live on, but not as super happy Force Ghost people, their cheating death is "unnatural". Or it could also be that the sith spirits are tied to Exegol's physical location (as we've seen Sith spirits before tied to physical things). Maybe they were tied to like the football stadium seating Palpatine built.

What I think is clearer in the movie is that Rey would have to kill Palpatine in anger and strike him down for him to inhabit her, which doesn't happen (funny joke to say that Rey at the end is Palpy again, though). But she used the power of the light and all the Jedi to reflect his dark force power back at him. So technically this time Palpatine killed himself, she just blocked it. That's on you, Sheev!

I do also agree that Rey might need an exorcism though. Probably did that right after proclaiming herself Rey Skywalker. "Rey Skywalker... and I need a priest, STAT!"

 

It wasn’t Rey just killing Palpatine but striking him down in anger for revenge against him for killing her parents. Anger — rage — revenge.

 

In the old EU, the idea of body hopping Bane or Banites was pretty much discredited directly by the authors.

In general, my interpretation of sith naming ritual has been the master communes with the dark side of the force, meditates on it, and a name that is most fitting appears.

 

She did not strike, only held her ground with a defensive move and stepped closer. We saw in ROTS that lightning cascades off of a blade catching it. So once close enough, it hit Palpatine himself and destroyed him with his own hatred. Not hers. Despite hers she resisted to use it and had Palpatine selfdestruct.

Appears why, from where? who?

In TOTJ we saw Sith spirits give the Dark Lord title (but no new name) to Exar Kun and Ulic Quel Droma.
In ROTS we saw Palpatine commune with the Dark to find Vaders name but no spirits per se mentioned. Yet he visited them on Korriban/Moraband in other sources like Dark Empire.

Names do not just pop up, I'd say one can combine the two and have past Sith influence the naming ritual, be it that they are internal via bodyhopping, or external in the Dark.

 

I know — I didn’t quote posts above but people were saying she killed him but his spirit could’ve live on — but that was only if she had struck in anger.