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Beyond - Legends Always Two (Darth Caedus/Kylo Ren)

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction- Before, Saga, and Beyond' started by darth_treyvah, Mar 29, 2017.

  1. darth_treyvah

    darth_treyvah Jedi Master star 3

    Dec 26, 2005
    Title: Always Two
    Author(s): darth_treyvah
    Timeframe: Legacy of the Force, The Sequel Trilogy AU
    Characters: Darth Caedus, Kylo Ren

    Darth Caedus sits cross-legged in his room on the Anakin Solo and lets the raw current of the Force pass through him. He reigns these powerful emotions in: gripping them, molding, controlling. The Sith Lord begins to feel it happening. Finally, after many of his setbacks, he is expanding on the technique.

    His skill at Battle meditation has only increased since accepting the dark side of the Force into his repertoire of abilities. But feeling his battered body, his injuries from his fight with his old Master and his erstwhile apprentice, he knows right now that he has to go further and farther. And so, Darth Caedus reaches out into what he had been taught was the lens of the Unifying Force -- the part of the Force or the sentient conception of it -- and sees what he can of space-time.

    Once, long ago, Darth Caedus had been taught that the future was always in motion: especially with regards to the Force ability of farseeing. But now, years later and a Master in his own way and right, he understands that the truth is far more complex. Perhaps the Aing-Tii perspective of the Force and reality having multiple spectrums affected him far more than even he thought possible.

    As it is, he sees a multitude of threads and webs of possibility. Some of them are the lives of his men, of his enemies, and others are of the past and the future and ....

    One knot draws him in. Even now, at this stage in his power, Darth Caedus is hard pressed to know why. All he feels is that it's somehow ... familiar yet distant. Like one of Vergere's infuriating riddles, or Lumiya's deceptive tassels, it draws his fascination and his focus. And your focus, as an old Jedi Master once said, determined your reality.

    The dark side of the Force doesn't so much roar, as it whispers a suggestion. And Darth Caedus, appreciating it, yet still perplexed, follows the thread in his meditations even as suddenly, almost without warning, he feels himself torn out of his physical form down this burning path to another place, another time, towards something else that's similar to him, yet different.

    Something, or someone ...
  2. darth_treyvah

    darth_treyvah Jedi Master star 3

    Dec 26, 2005
    Kylo Ren sits in his dormitory. Everything stings, both figuratively and literally. Even after extensive treatment and meditation, his ribs where the bowcaster bolt hit him still hurts. And his face burns. His skin still crackles from where the girl slashed him with his grandfather's stolen Jedi blade.

    The Knight of Ren focuses on that feeling. He channels the anger at being so injured by a slip of a girl with the sheer force of her raw talent as opposed to any formal skill, the humiliation of Armitage Hux finding his battered form, the fear of failing his Master, and the unique feeling, one he is still in the process of exploring, of knowing that he out of everyone in the galaxy did the most difficult and found that he has finally killed Han Solo.

    Now his training continues. Supreme Leader never lets up on him. He is molding him, changing him into the powerful being that he needs to be in order to complete the Great Work. He is finally going to finish what he started. He needs the furnace inside him to blaze again, multifaceted like the power raging through the cracked kyber crystal of his lightsaber blade.

    And even though he failed in retrieving his grandfather's lightsaber, he still has the part of him that matters.

    It is something that no one, neither his former Master, nor his parents, nor especially his recent opponent could ever appreciate. Not even Supreme Leader Snoke had this powerful a connection to the past as he does with the object in front of him. The weathered, burned remnants of Darth Vader's helmet stare across the room at his grandson: sitting in the ashes of all the enemies that Kylo Ren had ever destroyed. He gathers the darkness, the seething fear, anger, hate, and suffering inside of his core and uses his grandfather's helmet as that physical focus, that anchor that he needs to access his metaphysical centre in the storm inside himself, attempting to see himself reflected in the dead, warped gaze of Darth Vader's shattered visor.

    Grandfather, he tells the helmet, telling the other's spirit, telling the darkness, telling himself, let my sacrifice blaze forth and extinguish the call to the light. Speak to me, grandfather.

    Kylo Ren reaches out a single black gloved hand and draws on the power of the dark side churning inside of him, against his feelings, the serpentine dragon struggling against himself. Usually, there is only silence in the dark grey room of his quarters where the shell of his grandfather's remnants reside. But then ... something happens. He feels something ignite inside of him. It is more than he hoped for. The dragon roars and the power of the dark side flows through the Knight of Ren.

    The dark warrior forgets the pain of his scars as the shadows of the room coalesce around the faded helmet of Darth Vader and form into a humanoid shape created out of pure darkness. Kylo Ren knows that he has called this power. At last, it has answered him. But, before can ask, he already knows the truth.

    Whatever the presence is, it's not his grandfather. Even so, it speaks to him. It calls him. It is not the light, but the dark. And that is enough for Kylo Ren as he reaches out his mind ...
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  3. darth_treyvah

    darth_treyvah Jedi Master star 3

    Dec 26, 2005
    Their minds collide into fire and shadows.

    Glittering dark brown eyes stare into a gaze turned golden-red by power. A long, thin pale face with an angry red scar across it under a mop of black hair regards a dark-brown haired visage with laugh lines turned into bitter slashes around his eyes and mouth. It is the distortion of looking into a two-way mirror darkly. Both reach into the other's subconscious, or perhaps they do so instinctively -- neither are sure nor particularly care about these specifics -- but the Force burns through their psyche and clashes against two names.



    The Knight of Ren and the Dark Lord of the Sith mentally draw back. The Knight's face twists into a snarl of anger. The Sith Lord's mouth curls into a sneer and his glowing eyes narrow consideringly, dangerously.

    "He is a dead man." The dark warrior snarls. " I am Kylo Ren, Master of the Knights of Ren. You would do well to remember that."

    "So is that name." The Sith Lord says slowly, pondering. "I done discussing dead men. I am Darth Caedus."

    "There are no Sith. Not anymore. My grandfather was the last of the true Sith."

    "Interesting. For someone who feels as though he has to proclaim what he is, you certainly use much energy attempting to be humble."

    Kylo Ren's scarred face twists into one of rage, but it twitches slightly. "What are you? Some kind of test? From ... Supreme Leader?"

    "Supreme Leader." Darth Caedus muses, looking around the stark grey confines of the other's dormitory. "No. Not here. And I have never heard of the Knights of Ren before. What are you? Some form of darksider cult? Working with a part of the Imperial Remnant? How interesting. I must have flow-walked here. But I don't remember consciously ..."

    "Flow-walking ..." Kylo Ren shakes his head. "Don't you dare ignore me! The First Order will rule this galaxy. My Master will not be pleased over an interloper meddling in our affairs."

    "Hmm. So, well if you are vision of what could have been, or could be, you certainly require more ... interpretation."

    There is a ripple in the Force as a cylinder flies into Kylo Ren's outstretched hand. It ignites into a cross-guard red glowing blade as the cylinder impacts with his palm as it sweeps down ... right through the transparent darkness of Darth Caedus.

    "A ... unique weapon, compared to a shoto or a double-bladed weapon." Darth Caedus says, stepping away from the blade as if nothing had happened. "But very poor impulse control on your part, Ren. Honestly, I have seen Dark Jedi and younglings with more patience than you."

    Kylo Ren's forehead furrows. The dark warrior looks down at his blade and takes his thumb off the ignition switch, deactivating the lightsaber. He looks up again at Darth Caedus and concentrates. "And you ... you are almost out of it. If you haven't run out already."

    The Sith Lord chuckles without mirth. "You have no idea. Then again ... huh. Perhaps you might. This really is interesting."

    The two regard each other for a minute, calculating, analyzing.

    "How is this possible?" Kylo Ren says. "For all you think I'm some rank amateur, and I know you do, you are definitely no hologram. Not an attempt by my Master to manipulate my mind. Perhaps, an aberration of the Cosmic Force? I'd almost be tempted to say that ..."

    "... you are going mad? Yes." Darth Caedus scratches his head. "The thought had occurred to me too. The Cosmic Force? I've not heard that theory before. But, somehow, I think we both know, don't we."

    "Yes." Uncertainty and conviction waver in Kylo Ren's voice like the forces of light and darkness inside his heart. "It looks like my old teacher taught you the ways of the Force, Caedus."

    "As he taught you. Somehow." The Sith Lord paces around the other.

    Kylo Ren tenses, his body immediately going on guard. "I can feel you in mind. Strangely. Like my ..."

    "... like my mother. And my siblings. As I used to feel my twin." Darth Caedus shakes his head. "It is uncomfortable."

    "It's infuriating!" Kylo Ren shouts. "Your weakness is disgusting! You are still attached to them."

    "Hardly. I ...:" The other sighs. "It's true. Even after everything. I still feel for them."

    "And I ... ha. I succeeded!" Kylo Ren grins suddenly. "I destroyed the Jedi before they could be reborn! And you failed!"

    "It's true. They did survive. You killed a few untrained initiates, stabbing them in the back while Uncle Luke was gone. Congratulations, Ren. You killed children, just like Grandfather."

    "And you couldn't even kill your Master! And your apprentice turned on you!"

    "And the girl you obsess over overcame the great Master of the Knights of Ren. At least I have another apprentice."

    "Just a tool. You really wanted the boy. You wanted .... Ben ..."

    Darth Caedus smirks, twisting the scars on his own face. "And you want the girl for yourself. Tell me, when were you going to tell her that you were the apprentice and not the Master? Or are so weak you need an untrained Force-sensitive to help you bring him down?"

    "Your Masters both died for you. You didn't even kill them yourself. Is that are Sith are now ... wherever you come from after Grandfather died? Ha!"

    "And you have never even thought about killing yours."

    There is a silence in the room. It belies the unseen crackling energies between both dark warrior and Sith Lord. It is brief.

    "It's true, isn't it Ren? Whoever ... whatever you are ... Ha." Darth Caedus smiles. "My apprentice might be a tool, but you are just as much a tool as she. And you have no excuse. You have all of that untapped, raw power inside of you. And you keep yourself back with those attachments. All for a girl."

    "And you do all of what you do for a little girl."

    For a few moments Darth Caedus' eyes do not so much as burn but blaze. But just as quickly, the fire simmers down back into his core as he nods to himself. "And you spared a little girl, once."

    Kylo Ren sits down on his mattress, never taking his dark eyes off of the intruder. Darth Caedus' glowing eyes regard him until, finally, the Sith Lord crosses his arms. "You know, I think now understand why this happened."


    "Yes. You know, whatever you are Kylo Ren: a part of my mind, a vision, an alternative path, I think we might be able to help one another."

    "You must be a vision from the Force, as my Master told me." Kylo Ren says. "Darth Caedus or whatever you, you are just a facet of the power, tempting me, forming disorder. I will master this power. And I will bring order, true balance, to this galaxy."

    "It is what I want as well."

    "For the girl?"

    "For everyone. Even if I have to be the villain. Even if I have to die. A small price to pay for peace. Are you willing to die for that as well, Kylo Ren?"

    Kylo Ren regards the other. "Very well, Darth Caedus. I am listening."
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  4. darth_treyvah

    darth_treyvah Jedi Master star 3

    Dec 26, 2005
    "Attachments can be weakness." Darth Caedus says. "But also useful tools. You can undermine them in others. And as tools serving you, they can make you stronger. They can accomplish your goals."

    "Supreme Leader taught me as much. Tell me something I don't know, apparition."

    "Well, for starters begin thinking for yourself. Stop hiding behind that ridiculous mask. You won't honour your ... grandfather acting like a child playing dress-up. Take the light inside of you --"

    "No!" Kylo Ren jumps to his feet. "There is no light in me!"

    "That is a load of shavit and you know it. I can see some parts of mind through, whatever this mockery of a bond is. I will say one thing for your 'Supreme Leader.' Teaching you the Jedi arts and those of the dark side is good in cultivating the conflict inside of you."

    "No. No, the light is weakness." The dark warrior begins to pace around. "It was what I was feeling at the interrogation. It was what I felt on Starkiller Base. That was why I was defeated so easily. That was why ..."

    "No, Kylo Ren. The truth is, it is only by embracing that conflict that you will gain the power that you need. The dark side is not a passive shadow. Think of it as smoke that comes from fire. And fire is light. Use that suffering inside of you. Use Dad's -- use Han Solo's death and the grief you feel. Accept it. You killed your own father for power. Hate yourself. Hate him for always leaving you. For being afraid of you. For looking down on you. Miss your family. Hate them for misunderstanding you. For keeping the truth away from you. Honour what you lost by sacrificing it to the pyre inside of you like Grandfather's armour on Endor." Darth Caedus clenches a fist in front of Kylo Ren. "And then it will all fall into place."

    "The way she defeated me." Kylo Ren said, distantly. "Before it. She said I was afraid I would never become as powerful as Darth Vader."

    "Darth Vader was a weak, crippled man in an iron mask who threw away his power out of stupidity, losing a fight he could have won easily, and becoming the slave of an old man he should have killed ages ago for a wife and children that became his enemies. We are better than that! You have the bloodline and the power. And she will come to you. So will your old Master. Think about it, Ren. You don't have to find him. He will find you. She will find him, train with him, and come back to you."

    "And ... then what?"

    "Then? First, you continue to train. You learn Snoke's lessons. You gain power. You make your alliances and move your Knights of Ren against each other. You figure out which ones are the most adaptable. The most powerful in that adaptability. You place them and other agents in your First Order. You gain contacts. And you wait. You wait until Luke Skywalker and his new apprentice come out. You wage war. You have already crippled the New Republic or whatever else is here and as you fight your Rebellion, your Resistance, you will embrace that power and topple your Master. That is the only way you will do this. Turn your attachments into weapons. And win."

    Kylo Ren sits down back down on the bed. "No. I am loyal to Supreme Leader. He has much to teach me. If he senses ..."

    "He cannot sense this conversation. And even if he does, it's all in your head. And any dark side adept that doesn't think his apprentice will try to kill him one day, is a fool. Besides, I am sure you have mental shields powerful enough to keep the details away from him if Luke's basic teachings were worth a damn."

    "They weren't worth much, in the end." Kylo Ren looks past Darth Caedus at the mask of his grandfather in its shrine of ashes. "And you, Caedus. Will you have the power to do what must be done?"

    "... I will do what I have to. I've already made myself that promise."

    "It will hurt."

    "I know." Darth Caedus whispers. "And I already do. I have already begun preparing myself for how much it will."

    "I know you have." Kylo Ren considers. "If I were you, somewhere, wherever you come from or however it is, I would throw away that Rule of Two. That Sith Order is over. There is a reason why the Knights of Ren exist. One apprentice is good, but if you want tools, you should get more of them. And you should prepare to do something with your Republic, your ... Alliance."

    "Yes. That is reasonable advice. The Sith always had acolytes, after all. I shall take it under consideration."

    Darth Caedus turns away and his form begins to fade. Kylo Ren watches as the other loses cohesion, feeling the Force retreat back into the darkness placidity with spikes of aggression that has been feeling before. "Wait."

    Caedus doesn't turn around. "What is it?"

    The Knight of Ren almost considers not saying anything more "... do you ... still miss them?"

    Darth Caedus inclines his head. For a few moments Kylo Ren thinks he can see the other's eyes fade to brown. "Yes. That is the price. Remember that."

    And then, the apparition that was Darth Caedus is gone.
  5. JediMaster_Jen

    JediMaster_Jen Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jun 3, 2002
    Very interesting start. =D= I like the interplay between Caedus and Ren. Two sides of the same coin.
  6. darth_treyvah

    darth_treyvah Jedi Master star 3

    Dec 26, 2005
    Kylo Ren regards the place where the vision, where the apparition, used to stand.

    It was a powerful experience, whatever it was. Supreme Leader told him, along with his old Master, that the Force often possessed great mysteries. Lessons about midichlorians communicating his presence through the Living Force to the Cosmic and back were almost lost on him. The dark side, through his grandfather, was attempting to teach him a lesson beyond that of even the Supreme Leader.

    It was strange. Sometimes the vision's voice sounded like his own, or that they were both speaking at the same time and thinking similar thoughts. It even almost looked like him, or his grandfather. Yes. He can see the resemblance, from before he embraced and then shirked his destiny in one moment of weakness. Or was it just one moment?

    Kylo Ren shakes his head. He must remain steadfast now. He must remember the pain and let it consume him like a primitive internal combustion engine. Let the fire simmer through his blood like the vision suggested. Somehow, he can feel the strength burning through the weakness he experienced on Starkiller Base: through the death of his father. He still wasn't sure that the spirits of those who embraced the dark side could talk to their successors, on that Supreme Leader was never particularly clear, but he hoped that this was his grandfather showing him the way to do what must be done. That the dark side made its will clear.

    As he will make his own will clear soon.

    He feels the presence and satisfaction of Supreme Leader at the borders of his mind. He is summoned. As Kylo Ren clips his lightsaber onto his belt, he considers taking his helmet, but thinks differently. Instead, he leaves it behind with that of his grandfather's.

    He will face this test with his own eyes. Kylo Ren and his Knights will be triumphant. The last Jedi will die and he will teach Rey the true ways of the Force. It is their destiny.


    Darth Caedus feels the tether linking his essence and his body drag him back to his reality. The Sith Lord opens his eyes. The sparse surroundings of his cabin in the Anakin Solo greet him morosely.

    He ponders over what he has just experienced. It was as though he had somehow experienced a power farseeing vision bordering on instinctual flow-walking. It was both terrifying and utterly interesting. Somehow, the Force had opened him to an alternate possibility of experience, to someone like him, or another version of him. Maybe it was the remnants of the arrogant self-satisfied person he was amalgamated into the dark impulses he could barely control. He wonders, briefly though, if the Force can go beyond looking or observing the past and future ... if it can somehow see into alternate timelines instead.

    He will have time to think this over, once he has ended the Rebellion and brought the Alliance to where he has to be. It makes sense not to impose the Rule of Two that so dominated Lumiya, and possibly Vergere. Both seemed to be transitioning out that direction on their own in any case. That will make for more variety and a better galaxy. And he will take the pain and passion and embrace, hone it, and remember his own lessons to his vision. His daughter will have the throne and future that she deserves, even if it costs him his life. Even if it costs him her love.

    The bond he sensed earlier, an illusion, is gone. Only the emptiness of the broken link between him and his sister remains. Once more, Darth Caedus is alone.

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  7. darth_treyvah

    darth_treyvah Jedi Master star 3

    Dec 26, 2005
    Thank you, JediMaster_Jen. I hope you will like the conclusion to this piece. It circled in my head for a little while.
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  8. Ewok Poet

    Ewok Poet Force Ghost star 6

    Jul 31, 2014
    Can you slow down, just a tiny wee bit? For us with one, two or - in my case - both of these specific conditions: Darth Real Life and ADHD? Other than that, SUPERB start, precisely what I would expect from you. :D
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  9. Findswoman

    Findswoman Force Ghost star 5

    Feb 27, 2014
    I was having trouble keeping up, too, so I'm going to transfer this to an ebook and give it a read. Very good to see you back, though, and you've got a fantastic premise here! :)
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  10. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    May 11, 2016
    An intersting story, I like your take on Caedus and his ideology.
    But I think he and Kylo aren't similar to each other at all. They are both the sons of Han and Leia who turned dark but that's it.

    Jacen was a strong fearless man who sacrificed his life, repuation and soul for his daughter and the galaxy. While Kylo is a scared child that lusts after power for himself.

    They might have the same background but there are worlds between them.

    Still an intersting thought of having them comunicate with each other. Nice fic. :)
  11. darth_treyvah

    darth_treyvah Jedi Master star 3

    Dec 26, 2005
    Ewok Poet Lol. I basically posted this work piece meal on the Board like I generally have done. You can take your time reading through it if you need to and if you haven't already finished it. Are you viewing this through another platform?

    Findswoman I am really unfamiliar what the issue might be, whether you are having formatting issues or if you are getting these chapters in different order and all over the place through notifications. But it's cool that you can convert things to ebooks. This would be more an ... e-short story? Lol. And thanks. I might write one more thing while I still have some inspiration. It's been a while since I have had the opportunity to write a fanfic, but I just felt the need to exercise those creative juices again after so much critical writing.

    Anedon Ah yes. You touch on some very interesting points. Let me see if I can engage with some of them beyond, well, the writing. I do actually think that Kylo Ren and Darth Caedus have some similarities. You have already mentioned their pedigree and potential as well as their parents and, of course, their original Master. But both of them believe they are doing what they do for the good of the galaxy: or so my skimming of TFA novelization long ago might have said. They possess some esoteric Force abilities and they also are experiencing inner conflict.

    As for your points on Jacen Solo, I can agree with them to an extent. He genuinely believed, or wanted to believe, that he was saving everyone and the galaxy at the cost of his soul. But, really, it's a lot like arguing that Anakin Skywalker fell to the dark side because he wanted to save his wife and children. Both of these may have been the original, conscious reasons why they undertook these actions, but there was always an underlying cause. Fear. Jacen, to me, was never fearless. Just like Anakin's moniker the Hero With No Hero didn't really apply to him when it came to those he loved. I think that Jacen might not fear for himself or care for his needs, or so he thinks, but he definitely is concerned with his loved ones and the galaxy. The problem, of course, is that fear: often from a place of powerlessness, which is why in the end, he wanted power just like his grandfather. The difference, for me, was the fact that Jacen was better at rationalizing the difference between his actions and his grandfather's in delving into the dark side.

    But when it came down to it, Jacen wasn't selfless. He did everything for "the good of the galaxy" whether the galaxy wanted it or not. It was ultimately what he wanted, not what his parents or Tenel Ka or even his daughter wanted. The results, hurting others and particularly his loved ones were practically similar to his grandfather's and Kylo's if you look at what happened to Han Solo. I also think that it's not completely black and white and that the danger to the dark side is that blurry line that you never know you're crossing until it's too late. And in the end, Jacen's actions from what I have gleaned at the end of his series were all for nothing anyway as war and conflict continued on: he just made an uneasy peace for a time in his brief era.

    Also, we don't know ALL of Kylo Ren's motivations yet. There are still two more films, and probably books, to consider. But I do agree with you: the two are different. Kylo is still learning about the dark side and has to temper himself, while Darth Caedus is already relatively experienced. One is still trying to find his purpose beyond a nebulous concept of order and dealing with his family's legacy and the other has a solid idea of what he thinks peace is.

    I also find it funny, and this was after I finished writing this short story, that neither of them particularly questioned just why the Force brought them together: beyond whatever it was the nature of the encounter might have been. They assumed it was the dark side of the Force. They learned, from this, the lessons they wanted to learn and perhaps not the one that they should have done. I think that is definitely in keeping with both characters.

    So yes, especially with regards to this story, Kylo Ren and Jacen Solo literally are worlds apart. ;)

    @To everyone: Unfortunately, this is a one-shot. Well, as much as a series of posts can be construed as one. I just had this idea and I wanted to do something creative for a change after, as I said to Findswoman, so much other work. I might, like I said again, have one more even shorter one. But we will see. As always, thank you for the attention and the reading.
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  12. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    May 11, 2016
    darth_treyvah I think you are giving Kylo much more credit here than he deserves oryou just hate Jacen.
    There is so far no indication of Kylo having a just motivation whatsoever. Also Jacen defenetly believed he was doing a good thing, I'm not saying it was the right thing to do but his intentions were good.
    I also don't think Jacen would have killed Han in cold blood like Kylo did, in a fight yeah but not in such a way.

    Jacen is a good man who failed, Kylo is a weak man who never tried but choose the easy way instead.

    Edit: I also appologize if I have offened you in any way with this. I don´t want to critize you or your work here. I got a little hotheaded. I´m sorry.
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  13. Findswoman

    Findswoman Force Ghost star 5

    Feb 27, 2014
    darth_treyvah, thanks for the response. :) The issue is simply the same as what Ewok Poet said: the five installments of the story appeared in such quick succession on the boards that it was difficult to keep up with them, and I had to transfer them into another form because it can be hard for me (as it is for some others too) to read so much text at once in the boards format. (This is why it can be a good idea to put a few days, even a week, between posts—it gives people more time to digest each part of the story and formulate thoughts on it.) But I did want to be sure to catch up, because I very much enjoyed the last few stories you posted here!

    As for making the ebook, all I did was copy the story text into a Word file, then used calibre (which is extremely easy to use and which I recommend highly) to convert it the MOBI format required for my Kindle (it does EPUB as well, and numerous others).

    Thanks again, and once again, it's good to see you back. :)
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  14. darth_treyvah

    darth_treyvah Jedi Master star 3

    Dec 26, 2005

    The irony is I don't hate Jacen. He was one of my favourite characters in the Old Star Wars Expanded Universe. I liked him in The Junior Jedi Knights as he was thoughtful and had an interest in biology and the lore of the Force. He did get smug and insufferable and self-righteous in the Yuuzhan Vong arc, but I really liked what Matthew Stover was trying to do with him in Traitor and how he resolved that War afterwards. The problem when talking about this is that we can talk about what they did in the stories and how those stories were written. There is Jacen the character as he is portrayed in Traitor and onward and then how different writers dealt with him in The Legacy of the Force series.

    I think that Jacen was a good man. Unfortunately, as Luke Skywalker pointed out to him at one point before he truly embraced the dark side, "There are times when the end justifies the means. But when you build an argument based on a whole series of such times, you may find that you’ve constructed an entire philosophy of evil." Unfortunately, after a while and the way he was handled in Legacy, this is exactly what he became and what he did. Of course he didn't set out to do that, but once he got that far, it was too late. And this wasn't Matthew Stover's interpretation of him anymore because unfortunately, again, from my understanding LucasBooks got involved and brought it all back to the start as it were of the Force itself has two sides no matter what.

    As for what Jacen may or may not have done if he had Han Solo in his sights, it all depended I think on when they encountered each other again. Also, remember how Han Solo made it clear in Legacy that he would kill Jacen -- or at least wished he had shot him out of an airlock when he was born. So they probably would have fought and Jacen would have killed him as quickly and efficiently as possible: and as we saw with Mara, he was not above using deception to make a quick victory if the odds weren't in his favour or if he just didn't have time. Just like he murdered Isolder so that Imperials, which he had been working with or taken control of, wouldn't use his DNA in a nano-attack.

    And Jacen did cause mass slaughter for the sake of HIS order, if you recall Kashyyyk: you know, the world where his beloved uncle came from. Sure, he had his reasons and he wanted his Galactic Alliance to maintain peace. And this isn't mentioning his attack on the Jedi Academy and others.

    What I'm trying to say, and I think we might already be at that place where this is less discussion about fanfiction and more appropriate for Character Discussion in another Forum, is that Jacen isn't perfect and what may have started out with good intentions turned to the dark side. It is to his credit that his last action was saving his former lover and child and sacrificing his life. And he did try. But I am also pointing out that Kylo Ren's motivations and past has not been fully revealed yet and it is fairly premature to judge him on his intentions when we don't know everything yet. Of course in TFA he is a mass of temper tantrums. And I never said he was exactly like Jacen. But he has abilities I had not seen in the Star Wars Universe before, such as freezing someone into place with the Force or stopping a blaster bolt in midair. I get the feeling not just any Force user or Jedi can do that. Kylo Ren is unique in that in a film we are still seeing him develop. And I don't know everything about him and he is not my favourite character all things considered, but my point is that Jacen Solo and Kylo Ren do have some, at least creative and thematic interlap, if nothing else. And that is part of what I tried to explore here.

    But, everything is all from a certain point of view as a wise truth-bending Jedi Master used to say. So it is always good to have different opinions. For what it's worth, I am glad you enjoyed this fic for what it was.

    EDIT: With response to your Edit, thank you. I understand as a geek and Star Wars fanatic just how passionate we can get. There are some topics where I know I can get very passionate and argumentative. So no offence taken. The Force be with you. :)
    AzureAngel2 and Anedon like this.
  15. darth_treyvah

    darth_treyvah Jedi Master star 3

    Dec 26, 2005

    I think I understand. The issue is that whenever I have written on the Boards in the past and when I need the inclination to, I just write directly into the Boards. There are pitfalls to this of course, such as if my text gets eaten, or not bothering with editing. But this is how I have always done it and I just didn't feel like waiting. Now, if it had been something more epic in scope, with larger chapters and such, you definitely would have all had a waiting time. I used to have more epic long chapters on here too, for larger stories, but during The Great Move, they got truncated and the powers that be never restored them. So that is, I suppose, an example of why I should have saved them elsewhere first and a reason why I don't write on here as often as I once did.

    So when I do, I just "get it out of my system," as it were. But I am sorry if you are having issues reading these. And as I said, you can definitely take your time with them. The one I had been thinking about next won't even be that long and will hopefully be one or two posts. Thank you for the clarification and the suggestion for calibre. It is appreciated.
    AzureAngel2, Ewok Poet and Findswoman like this.
  16. Ewok Poet

    Ewok Poet Force Ghost star 6

    Jul 31, 2014
    You also don't know how to quote two people at the same time.

    The approach needs to be worked on. ;) For one, the tab could accidentally refresh and you would lose your hard work!
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  17. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    May 11, 2016
    Thanks, I´m glad to hear you understand my passionate words.
    I agree that YKJ and Traitor are among the best books in SW and in LotF Jacen really wasn´t himself anymore. Its a shame what they didn to him.
    AzureAngel2 and darth_treyvah like this.
  18. SiouxFan

    SiouxFan Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 6, 2012
    This was an interesting one-off. It's also interesting that the two of them are alone all of the time. I was going to add a bunch more, but I think everything I was going to comment upon had already been covered by everyone else!

    In the end, I still have trouble with Kylo...why would anyone want to become like Darth Vader? With Jacen we got interpretations and rationales, weak as they were...hopefully Disney will do a better job explaining this in the next couple movies.
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  19. darth_treyvah

    darth_treyvah Jedi Master star 3

    Dec 26, 2005

    Thank you, SiouxFan. It is interesting how both characters in their respective canons are depicted as alone. Such is the way of those who pursue the dark side of the Force I suppose. And I agree with you and others about Kylo Ren. We still have to see more of his rationale. I too hope Disney and LucasFilm are up to the task.
    AzureAngel2 likes this.
  20. AzureAngel2

    AzureAngel2 Chosen One star 6

    Jun 14, 2005
    To read your fanfic was a bit like binging. ;):p But I read it all and I was happy with your approach.

    I never liked Jacen much before I started reading fanfics about him here on the boards.

    And being an Adam Driver Fan since the TV series "Girls" I automatically feel for him as Kylo. Therefore I have no issues with you whatsoever.

    It was like two characters from two different fairytale realms meeting by chance, as it often happens in the TV series "Once upon the time". Your meeting place of those two was much more intimate though. There was no hiding.

    It vaguely reminded me of a scene in the Fantasy book "Never-ending story" where Bastian (from the human world) and Atreju (from Phantasien) gaze at one another in a mirror.

    Well done!
    darth_treyvah likes this.
  21. darth_treyvah

    darth_treyvah Jedi Master star 3

    Dec 26, 2005
    Thank you AzureAngel2. A Neverending Story parallel. I like it. I think at the point and the way I get the two to meet and their minds interact and where they are in their lives hiding would almost be as pointless as attempting to ignore each other in such a cramped room.

    Kylo Ren is interesting as there seems to be story there and it has potential. And I also didn't like dark side Jacen until all those fics about him. It made me try my hand at some: especially redemption ones even though he probably will go down his Old EU path here.

    As it's appropriate that you compare this to a fairytale as today it's April Fool's and the forums are turning Star Wars film titles into Disney ones. Thanks again AzureAngel2.
    AzureAngel2 likes this.
  22. AzureAngel2

    AzureAngel2 Chosen One star 6

    Jun 14, 2005
    And I was not away that something like this would happen on April Fool´s Day and I frowned, when turning on my laptop. I thought this had to do with my wild partying the night before. (For my now ex-colleagues & my husband DarthUncle forced me to have as much fun as possible at my good-bye party at the kindergarten.)

    And I hope you write more Kylo Ren, because he is an underestimated character for most people. But like General Armitage Hux he is a scary fanatic. He believes in the things that he does in the name of Snoke. Most of the time anyway.
    darth_treyvah likes this.
  23. darth_treyvah

    darth_treyvah Jedi Master star 3

    Dec 26, 2005
    I actually did write another Kylo Ren story a while ago. I link it or send the URL to you if you're interested.
  24. AzureAngel2

    AzureAngel2 Chosen One star 6

    Jun 14, 2005
    Please do, because I have some time right now.
  25. darth_treyvah

    darth_treyvah Jedi Master star 3

    Dec 26, 2005