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PT Anakin and Luke's journeys ultimately run totally inverse to each other

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by HevyDevy, Jul 19, 2016.

  1. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Good catch on the Shmi-Anakin, OB1-Luke destiny talk.

    On how death affects Luke/Anakin, they do have some similar trajectories.

    Anakin has intuition/dreams that his mother is in danger. He allows OB1 to delay his rescue of her. He arrives too late.
    Luke has intuition/dreams that his friends are in danger. He doesn't allow OB1 to delay his rescue of them.

    Inversely, OB1 was wrong with Anakin, but was listened to, whereas OB1 was right with Luke, but wasn't listened to. But was OB1 *really* right? It allowed Luke to learn Vader was his father, which changed his entire trajectory. Suddenly, Vader wasn't an object of pure hate for him. He was no longer training to avenge his father, but save him.

    Now imagine if Anakin had gone to save Shmi when his intuition told him to. He saves her, brings her back to her homestead where she is no longer a slave and with loved ones. Perhaps he even leaves his *cell number* for the to call if they need his help again. He's no longer haunted by that fact that his inaction led to the death of somebody he truly cared about. He is no longer an easy target for the darkside.

    So the fear of loved ones dying does affect their path. In fact, Vader couldn't reach Luke with direct taunts in RotJ. It was the taunt of going after Leia that sent him over the edge. Luke DID make the wrong decision in fear and cut off Mace's hand (except it was Vader's). Vader was Mace in that scenario. Anakin did not kill Mace. The Emperor did.

    Now imagine that the Emperor did not force lightning Luke, but instead force lit up Vader (as he did Mace). Luke might have then been *trapped* just as Anakin was. He could have attacked the Emperor (an almost guarantee fail ... and possibly turn to the darkside). He could have refused to intervene.

    Don't get me wrong. I love the character of Luke. But I think sometimes people diminish Anakin too much to elevate Luke. When all said and done, it was Anakin that made the death of the Emperor possible. Luke was the light at the end of the tunnel, but Anakin still had to run down that tunnel.
     
  2. starocean90

    starocean90 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2014
    Kenobi was also wrong when it comes to Luke since if Luke had never went to help his friends than the other/Leia that Yoda/Kenobi were talking about would be in the hands of the Empire. Luke going also allowed R2 to be there who saved the day. He only failed to save one friend in Han but managed to save the rest.

    as for Luke it wasn't the fear in dying in others, since Vader never said he would kill Leia, only that if Luke refuses to turn than perhaps his sister will.

    that's the thing about Luke he's not afraid to lose people, sure he gets sad but he doesn't let it dominate him
    Beru/Owen die, he lets it go.
    Kenobi dies, he lets it go.
    His own father dies, he lets it go. Than at the end of ROTJ, he has made peace with his father, you see him smiling.

    while Anakin loses his mom, he goes bonkers.
    just the thought of losing Padme he's willing to go bonkers.
    finally with Luke he finally makes a right decision and saves a person he loves without hurting anyone that doesn't deserve it and at the cost of his own life.

    I like both Anakin/Luke
    while it was necessary for Luke to take Vader out of the dual, since Vader wasn't going to stop the dual.
    Not wanting to become what he set out to destroy and his father's fate is what brought him back to Earth and reminded him that he came to save his father. So even Luke almost made a huge blunder, it took his father's sins to making get a grip.
     
  3. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I hadn't noticed that. Nice.

    At Obi-Wan's death Luke has a little bit of a revenge moment where he angrily shoots some stormtroopers, before Leia draws him away, but I agree that Luke doesn't let death ultimately dominate his actions.

    Obi-Wan's sentiment is possibly also reflected in Leia's later line in the same movie "He's got to follow his own path, no one can choose it for him."
     
    starocean90 likes this.
  4. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Bumping for anyone into mirroring analysis that missed this.

    Mod Edit: Please don't bump posts.
     
  5. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 13, 2011
    I still think it is a little mindblowing that...
    Anakin talks a thug (Sebulba) out of hurting Jar Jar with fabricated talks of Jar Jar's big name crime connections, where Luke will be similarly threatened in the ANH Cantina - again with mentions of crime connections as a threat - but this time the Skywalker is the one being bailed out.

    The push-pull balance in these movies is curious.
     
  6. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    I find it rather incongruous that a child should be able to convince Sebulba not to pulp Jar Jar, but a Jedi Knight cannot convince one to stop harassing Luke and has to resort to some gruesome violence.
     
  7. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Well, Anakin already knows Sebulba, and is a local. Sebulba's also more a bully than a criminal (except when cheating his races), compared to two wanted thugs against Obi-Wan, a stranger.
     
  8. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    I find it rather incongruous that someone tries to compare apples with oranges, but here it is.
     
  9. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    It's not in any way incongruous within the context of this thread and the specific comment from the OP that I replied to, which introduced the comparison in the first place.

    If the comparison is causing you problems, direct your issue at the originator, like I did.
     
  10. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 20, 2015
    I don't see any relevance to anything in this comparison. Two completely different situations, featuring completely different individuals.
     
  11. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Cool

    Tell Hevy Devy then.
     
  12. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    OR, it's an interesting observation to make when one compares these two thematically related scenes.
     
  13. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2015
    I thought you were being snide with your use of the word "incongruous". If I misunderstood your intentions, I apologize. It is an interesting contrast between the two scenes, but they aren't fully comparable situations.
     
  14. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    No problems.

    I agree. Hence the incongruity, as I see it, in the context of the OP and the comment were the scenes were directly compared.
     
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  15. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Well, that wasn't really what I meant. Appreciate your replies though. :)
    The contrast between these two scenes (and the contrast in parallels between 1 and 4 in general) is kind of the point for me.
    I totally agree that the situations are very different. I just found it cute that Anakin as a kid is bailing a soon-to-be friend out, where his son at even an older age needs some fast talking from someone else.

    These are the scenes in the script:


    It's a role-reversal for father and son Imo.
    Anakin fending for himself (and another) brings about the continued interaction with Qui-Gon and the main characters. A Jedi (Jinn) who will die before he can properly impart his whole wisdom on Anakin, and a Jedi (Kenobi) who will successfully start Luke on his path - Ben's death just being a stage to Luke's destined self-sufficiency.


    A few minor details that connect
    - Notice Sebulba ends up eating Jar jar's food for free, where Obi-Wan unsuccessfully attempted to settle the conflict by buying the thugs a drink.
    - Anakin/Obi-Wan are brave, yet Jar Jar/Luke cower. In the script Anakin references Jar Jar's fear.
    - "He's a big time outlander" is the opposite of "This little one is not worth the effort". Both statements are lies - JarJar has no crime connections, and Obi-Wan sees Luke's mighty future as a Jedi.
    - Both Skywalkers are humble workers about to begin their destined journey. Luke complains about being a farmer but his humble upbringing helps him in the end. Anakin defiantly states "It would be a shame if you had to pay for me" where unfortunately the nature of his childhood contributes to his fall.



    Everything in these parallels seems inverted.
    - The aesthetics...
    - in terms of foreshadowing each set of characters' different futures...
    - the tone of each trilogy when you accept it as one progressive but fluctuating entire story...
    - the drives of each protagonist...
    - their upbringing and consequent adulthood...
    - their luck, fate, and place in destiny.

    Maybe I'm going overboard with it, but i find it fascinating.
     
  16. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Plus "Next time we race, wermo, it will be the end of you!"
    and
    "You'll be dead!"
     
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  17. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    I think it's always been pretty clear that Anakin/Luke are meant to be contrasted against each other. They are both powerful men who have all the opportunities in the world; father makes selfish decisions and compromises morality for power, while the son refuses to do so even in under the threat of the annihilation of all his friends.
     
  18. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    This thread seems mostly intact as well.

    One broken link worth re-posting and (possibly) expanding on...


    The relationship, between each pair of male and female leads of each trilogy, seem to start similarly then divert from each other by each trilogy's end

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]





    First kisses
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    I would argue Han is the lead here contrary to Anakin and Padme's first kiss.








    "I Love you."
    [​IMG]
    "You love me?"
    [​IMG]

    "I Love you."
    [​IMG]
    "I know."
    [​IMG]





    The "big three" of each trilogy share a strong bond
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]






    Reunited kisses
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Anakin returning from war, Han coming out of carbonite-hibernation.






    By the end of the PT the three characters' bond is severed out of jealousy and perceived betrayal
    [​IMG]
    By the end of the OT the Skywalker twins are revealed as siblings and Han (who was humbly willing to step down if Luke was with Leia) has a much happier ending with Leia
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Dread Pirate Roberts

    Dread Pirate Roberts Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Really great stuff HevyDevy

    I love these kinds of analysis. I think my favorite bit of mirroring is the moment in both trilogy's climaxes, when Anakin is given the choice of who to save. Mace vs Palpatine and then Luke vs the Emporer. Both times, he chooses the victim who is being electrocuted. I think this shows his earnest compassion. The raw emotion that controls him so much of the time.

    But one is then asked the question, did he not learn from his mistake? Giving into his emotion is what caused the galaxy to fall. The only difference is the first time around, his love for Padme had grown possessive. It was no longer pure in my opinion. He sought the power to save her simply because he'd already lost his mother and couldn't bear it again.

    With Luke though, it was completely self-less compassion. He listened to his heart once more, but it was now pure. He gave his life for it.

    I love that so much. The way the trilogies interlock with eachother is so amazing, and the PT adds so much depth to the OT.
     
  20. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 13, 2011
    I wonder how this ties-in to the proposed ring-structure of the six films.
    It makes sense that it is going down one side of the ring for the PT and up the other for the OT.

    But there are echoes throughout all the SW films, it may be less solidly structured than this on another level.
    For example Anakin being 19 in AOTC and clearly being an opposite to Luke at 19 in ANH, where they aren't both the middle movies of their respective trilogies.
    And episode 3 is clearly supposed to be at a push-pull with episode 1 Imo.
     
  21. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Agreed.
    I love that even though Anakin seems to be making a similar decision in 3 and 6, saving the life of a weaker opponent, they are basically in opposite context.
    Saving Palpatine is internal focus on himself and his feeling for Padme. Saving Luke however, is realising there is something bigger than his own feelings, yet still is an attempt to help a loved one.

    It's very ironic and I think poignant.
     
  22. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I think this thread still has some relevance, if I do say so myself.
    Any amount of feedback is greatly appreciated :)
     
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  23. bstnsx704

    bstnsx704 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 11, 2013
    Great work as usual @HevyDevy

    Watching the films in a "back and forth" I - IV - II - V - III - VI order really helps to bring a lot of this to light during a viewing as well.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
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  24. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Thanks man.

    You could say Lucas's claim that "they're meant to be watched 1-6" isn't actually contradicted by that order. :D
    It still starts at 1 and ends at 6. [face_thinking]
     
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  25. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Btw good to see you on the boards, I havent seen you around for a while.

    I remember you got a fair bit into mirroring trilogy to trilogy.
    Sigh... the parallels us and others noticed seemed so much more unique back then. It is still one of my favourite things about the saga after all this time.
     
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