Saga Anakin Skywalker - Character Discussion...among other things.

Who says nobody raises an eyebrow about it? What are they going to do, prohibit him from spending his free with the Chancellor? It's not like having friends is against the Jedi Code. People might notice it as out of the ordinary, but it's not like there's anything inherently wrong with that situation. It's not like anyone suspects Palpatine is secretly super evil in the time period between TPM and ATOC.

 

Anakin and Palpatine would play SW Battlefront together.

 

But it's never mentioned one way or the other except one scene. All Lucas bothered to do to set up this relationship is one scene where a relationship is mentioned? My issue is, nothing surrounding Anakin is natural. You take all these little things and, on their own, it's no big deal. But once you look at the bigger picture, things start to fall apart. Lucas's decisions in the PT just make me scratch my head.

 

*shrug* It (mostly) works for me. We see Anakin having private conversations with Palpatine where he gets his ego stroked and we're told this is typical and has been happening for a long time. Would more scenes like that earlier in the trilogy sell the relationship better? Maybe. But I don't see it as a game changer. It's still the same story in the end, and I think the story of the PT works at it's core regardless of whatever qualms one has about the execution. To tie it back to our original conversation, that's the difference I see between it and the ST. A lot of people who didn't like the PT loved TCW and thought it fixed many of the "problems". On the other hand, I'm not interested in any material set in the ST era even with a change of creators or mediums because even though the execution might be much better, you can't save what I see as a fundamentally flawed story.

 

Very true, I still hold that the PT are mediocre adaptations of three non-existent masterpieces. I would never give the same praise to the ST.

 

Anakin discovered that Luke was his son and might be Force sensitive (from the Battle of Yavin), so why wouldn't he want to recruit the latter? But Palpatine recruiting Luke merely to flip the script on Anakin? "The Empire Strikes Back" had made it clear that the Emperor knew Luke was the Chosen One's son and a potential threat. That is why he wanted Luke either turned or dead.

 

How could the Emperor in 1983 have known that Luke was the son of the Chosen One when the concept of the Chosen One wasn't introduced until the 1990's?

 

@dagenspear
@Darkstrider

I'll happily continue talking about Anakin here. I don't want to muddy the already muddy Kylo waters.

Sorry for the double post. In my defense a lot of time has passed.

 

Anakin’s motives are right, LOVE. But, there is one inconsistency with his character. He turns to the Sith to protect and save Padmé from what he believed was certain doom. But, when Padmé died why did he stay with the Emperor? Why not just kill him for not protecting Padmé and become the ruler of the Galaxy. He even tells Padmé “I can overthrow him”. So why stick with him?

 

Anakin's initial motive for turning may have been his feelings for Padme, but I'm of the mind that Anakin's pitch to Padme about making things the way they want them to be wasn't just for her, but was something he wanted as well, which I think is brought up by Anakin in AOTC.

In my opinion, I think Vader didn't want to risk dying at Palpatine's hand. He does try to get Luke's help in killing him in TESB. Personally I like the idea of Vader plotting for ways to kill Palpatine over the years, but never finding a way.

In my opinion, based on the situation their in (to me, this being that Anakin's dreams about his mom, his feelings for Padme, him getting his first assignment, then his mom dying), and Anakin's character trajectory, maybe it's not supposed to be resolved? Maybe the point is that Anakin isn't resolving his issues, and his issues with Obi-Wan going into ROTS is a part of that. I'm not stating for a fact that this was the intention in the writing process, but I think it matches up.

 

I'll just say that in my opinion, Anakin is perhaps the most well-written character in all of SW, and possibly up there in some top 25 list of best written characters in film. There's no one that can say they don't understand his motives, emotions and reasons for his choices. Not to mention-say what one will about his dialogue or whatever-it was easy to relate to him in terms of choices he had made and why, and made us question what we would do were we in his shoes.

Plus, seeing how his (satisfyingly complete) character arc ended by the close of the OT, really ended his part in the story in a moving way-the kind of way that one would hope his story ended.

 

My issue with that only comes from the fact that we were told that Anakin and Obi-Wan were good friends, but what we are shown is them always being at odds with one another. If Lucas wanted Anakin to act the way he acts in the PT, it would have made more sense to write their relationship so that Obi-Wan thinks they are friends, but Anakin actually dislikes him. But that doesn't seem the case because Obi-Wan also talks bad behind Anakin's back the same way that Anakin does about him and they seem somewhat chummy with each other at the beginning of ROTS.

It just seems like Anakin should have acted like the honorable young man that Obi-Wan talks about in ANH up until his mom got killed and then he could have reverted to his more angry persona afterward. Having Anakin act the way he acts through the entirety of AOTC is just a weird writing choice to me.

 

I don't think we're shown that they're always at odds with eachother. I think we see them being calm to eachother in AOTC while they're at Padme's and she's asleep. And in ROTS. I think it's a fair criticism to say we don't see a ton of it. But I also think, in regards to the story and the situations they're in, that can make sense, to me. I think there's a difference between criticizing someone (Obi-Wan does this to Anakin, not just to others, and Anakin can be a bit lippy with Obi-Wan as well) and not being friends.

I think that's more of shift, than I'd prefer. In theory, though, his angsty attitude could be connected to his feelings in regards to the dreams about his mom.

 

If you feel that way, you're allowed to. But even Lucas added in that friendly scene of them in the elevator because he felt they were too hostile toward one another throughout the movie and Lucas also adjusted Anakin's characteristics in TCW from how he acts in AOTC as well. So it's not like it's only me who sees the way they act toward one another and especially how Anakin acts in AOTC as problematic.

None of these plot threads were forced on Lucas from outside sources. It's still ultimately Lucas' decision to have Anakin act angsty and rude throughout the movie. The fact is, Anakin could be written completely different for the first half of the movie with him and Obi-Wan having a warm and strong friendship AND THEN change Anakin's personality after his mom dies. There's no reason that Anakin has to act the way he acts for the first half of the movie.

And what's weirder about the whole thing is, if you showed someone how Anakin acts in the first thirty minutes of the movie and then showed them how he acts in the last thirty minutes of the movie, I doubt that they'd guess that he had some traumatic, life-changing event happen in the middle of the film because his personality is unchanged.

 

My favorite Star Wars character, particularly in AOTC. Love the approach Lucas took here, which puts into my mind equal parts confused American youth and moody dark fantasy prince a la Elric of Melnibone. Like the PT as a whole there’s something formal and extravagant about Anakin while overall his story strikes me as the most “real” look into human frailty we can get within the bounds of the SW setting.

 

sure thing...sorry for late reply, I was...distracted

You can be compassionate and cut people in half...it is not mutually exclusive

compassion is something you have for the deserving....or better yet, if a Jedi (lightsider) has compassion for an 'evil' creature then that darksider is deserving of it....and still not lost, but has potential for redemption. Otherwise the Force would not initiate empathy for him in the lightsider.
How do you know Ani is lost? when Padmé rejects him and he chokes her for it. The one part PT has failed is in portrayal of Padmé...she was so weak it makes me eeek.

I don't always take from movies what is explicitly written in a certain scene. I observe Anakin's character as a whole, from every scene. And ego and thirst for power, are very dominant traits of his character...not saying that he didn't care for her, but saying he definitely cared for himself more than for her. He puts himself first over others, his needs and wants are to him most important, and he justifies them even when they are wrong. Which is why I don't buy saving Padmé was his main reason for joining the Darkside...more of a convinient excuse.

nah...why would he go along with damnation for uncertainity of success of his 'biggest' desire...despair? nah Ani is not desperate...he is powerhungry...at that point, when he goes along with it after he finds out Palps can't actually save her is where his compassion for her disappears, only to be completely replaced with megalomania that now isn't masked by anything...I am sure that in that moment he decided to kill Palps and take over. Revenge.

Perhaps that was done deliberately to emphasize saving Padmé was just an excuse...

 

@Darkstrider

Everything you've said above would be great. Unfortunately it goes directly against what Lucas has explicitly said is going on in these scenes. The whole point of ROTS is that the dark side is corrupting Anakin. Anakin is sincere in his power lust to save Padme and then the movie goes off the rails because everything has to match with ANH. If you want to pretend the movie is about something different, I guess you can do that, but I'm not going to go along with you. What you're doing is writing a better movie in your head.

 

I don't necessarily think one has to contradict the other. I think Anakin can be driven by that goal, at first, but he gains more of a lust for power, the more power he thinks is within his grasp. I think him wanting to take over is consistent with what had been developed before that, for Anakin. I think the movies present the idea that, while Anakin doesn't turn for the outright power, he does want it as well, and he does want to enforce what he thinks should be on people.

Yeah, that friendly scene is there.

Even if I regarded TCW as necessary canon for Anakin's character (I don't much), I don't think Anakin is particularly tweaked in TCW much beyond what he's like in the opening of ROTS, which happens before things get tense for him again. I think Anakin being angry and frustrated about things in regards to the situations he's in can make sense for the character, as he's developing.

Maybe not forced, but, to me, I think in the interest of connecting to their overall issues and rivalry and Anakin's eventual turn, I think them being written that way, isn't inconsistent.

Anakin is already having dreams about his mom before that. I'm also not of the mind that Anakin's issues were only connected to his mom dreams. I think Anakin has other personal conflicts with the situation and that he and Obi-Wan have a sibling like rivalry and that Anakin rebels against Obi-Wan in regards to it. I think Anakin having an ego makes sense for the character arc of the character and that him rebelling against Obi-Wan in use of that ego isn't inconsistent with that development.

I actually think Anakin is written to be more angry and impulsive at the end in the fight with Dooku.

Does this mean I think they couldn't be written to be more friendly at points? No, not necessarily. I don't think I accused the movie of being greatly well written in regards to its relationships. But I think their issues aren't necessarily inconsistent and that the movies show them being softer and/or friendly with eachother.

 

They don't contradict one another, but I know what Lucas intended and I know what I see on screen. Like I said, if someone wants to pretend other things are going on in a characters head, that's fine, but I know what Lucas' intentions were and I'm not gonna pretend that there is character depth where there isn't.

It makes sense in the context of AOTC. But in ANH we're told that they were good friends and the only time we see this friendship is in ROTS, which means all of the character changes in their dynamic happened off screen. I see that as weak writing. If you don't, that's fine, but the same thing happens with Anakin between TPM and AOTC. The audience is told repeatedly in the PT that Anakin's behavior has changed because of things that happened between movies and to just accept it. Again, to me, that's incredibly weak writing especially when the whole point of the PT was to show HOW Anakin went from good to bad. But then Lucas skips over most of the development. Seems like Lucas set out to create something he later discovered he didn't have the talent to do.

...then write the story so that he isn't having them yet.

Is that because of anything that happened in the second act, or is it just because of what happened in the arena? Like I said, if you show someone the first 30 minutes and the last 30 minutes, I doubt they'd guess that Anakin lost someone personal. I doubt they'd guess that anything devastating happened to him.

 

What were his intentions?

We see them be friendly in AOTC. You said so.

I think the movies presents us with reasons in TPM and AOTC that show situations that he's changed in, even in how he and Obi-Wan interact. I think TPM has Yoda say his fear about his mom, and then shows his sadness at Qui-Gon's death, and then shows and says his tension in regards to his feelings for Padme, and his emotions about his mom in regards to his dreams.

ANH may have had Obi-Wan say that they were good friends. But I think the movies show Vader killing him and having resentment towards him. If the movies are to keep in mind that end goal, I think it makes sense to show that those feelings didn't come out of nowhere.

I think that adds to emotional mounting set up for his character and him struggling to not go after his emotions.

I don't think taking those dreams away really serves the overall character arc, the end goal of the characters or necessarily the story as a whole.

I think that may be down to opinion. I think it's down to Anakin taking his anger out on the situation in general. I can concede it may not be a fully expanded concept. But I see the current situation, in connection to his frustration at Padme being hurt and his mom's loss, coming to a head in that situation.

Maybe they wouldn't. I wouldn't necessarily agree with that.

 

There are hours worth of footage available to watch as well as a MAKING OF book that was released around the time of the film coming out in 2005.

We also see Anakin talk about fascism in AOTC. If literally one scene for each is enough for you to establish who Anakin is then that's fine, but I see that as the absolute bare minimum of character creation. It'd be like if Luke said, "I want to be a Jedi like my father" in ANH, but then did absolutely nothing else to work toward that goal for the rest of the film only to later go to Yoda in TESB. Yeah, it's gets the idea across to the audience, but that's bare bones story creation.

Best example of missed opportunity is the arena banter. Anakin says to Obi-Wan that they came to him and Obi-Wan just sarcastically says, "Good job." Obi-Wan could have given a heartfelt, "Thanks." Just a few scenes where they aren't upset with each other would do wonders to establish a friendship in AOTC beyond one scene in an elevator where they're jovial with one another.

 

I think if you want to make a point about something, your go. I don't wanna get a book or watch hours of footage to find it, or really look for it much.

I think Anakin's character, to me, makes sense in regards to wanting fascism and I think he's shown for that more in ROTS, not just when he goes dark side outright, but also when he's not particularly bothered, as far as I can tell, about Palpatine getting voted more powers.

I think they have 2 scenes, maybe 3, in AOTC, if you count the scene of Obi talking calmly to Anakin when they're about to go into the bar after the changling and after him saying the death of me line, Anakin says that he's the closest thing he has to a dad. Maybe that thank you could've been there, but, in my opinion I'm entertained by the sass.

 

You asked for a source, I gave you one. Now it seems like you're asking me to do the research for you. If you don't want to "look for it much" then I kind of feel like I've just been wasting my time discussing things in the first place.

Again, if all of that being established by one line that Anakin said in the previous movie half jokingly is good enough for you then that's fine.

 

To me, if you want to make a point, I think that's your go, not mine, like this.

I think it's developed with the character, not just in that one line.