Saga Anakin Skywalker - Character Discussion...among other things.

The ship is huge and moves slowly. The fighters are connected to the command ship and have limited range.

They have a way of knowing it's the queen's ship, and it's called observing it with their eyes.

No, she didn't assume all the security forces would be in the hangar. She assumed they would be in similar locations around the city.

Ummm, this is the conversation:

Nute Gunray: "We are sending all troops to meet this army assembling in the swamp. It appears to be made up of primitives."
Sidious: "This will work to our advantage."
Nute Gunray: "I have your approval to proceed then, my lord."
Sidious: "Wipe them out. All of them."

Nute is asking for approval to fight this army made up of primitives. Palpatine says wipe them out.

 

Please point me in the direction of where this info is in the movie.

This is a continuation of the previous scene where they discuss that Padme is uncharacteristically aggressive and Sidious tells Maul to wait for Padme to make the first move.

In the scene we're talking about they are now discussing what Padme's plan is... Which is that she has gathered an army of "primitives".

And I know this because the first line of dialogue (which you conveniently didn't include) from the scene that you quoted is...

SIDIOUS: She's more foolish than I thought.

The entire scene is about what Padme is planning next. They thinks she's with the Gungans. This is why the TF is surprised that there is fighting in the city. They thought the conflict was going to take place, "far from here. This is too close."

 

All the droids are connected to the command ship. We don't see them control the vulture droids, but we do see them activate the battle droids from the ship. Nute says after the queen's ship has escaped that "It is out of our range." It is of course out of the range of the ships which stay to blockade Naboo, but also out of the range of the vulture droids. Which is why Sidious sends Maul to track them.

 

So the ship didn't already have starfighters ready to deploy? They've had this blockade up for a while, but had no contingency for a ship tried to actually run through it?

I'll buy the Droidfighters being controlled by the ship like the battle droids. That makes sense. But to not have them prepped beforehand, especially after you already started the invasion, seems a little contrived.

Especially when your big ships are so poorly designed that they can't even fire forward, apparently. You'd think the fighters would be prepped at all times.

 

You can ask similar questions about the OT. Why didn't Vader have an army of stormtroopers waiting to stun Luke when he landed on Cloud City? Or have TIEs attack his ship. Why face him alone? (Because of dramatic effect) Vader thought he could carbon freeze Luke easily. The TF thought the big ships were enough of a blockade so nothing would get through.

 

The thing was that Anakin was fed ear worms by Sidious Palpatine. And he chose to act unwisely and without empathy. That was the issue.

But on the other hand...why did it take this long for certain things like this to be released?

 

Nothing?
So I guess the scene where the Naboo ship was fired at and got damaged did not happen.
You have gone from inventing stuff to ignoring things that happen IN the film.

One does wonder why the Naboo ship flies so close to the TF ship. They are so close that they could open a window and toss beer-cans at it.
Why fly at the TF ships at all? The TF ships seemed to be in a ring-formation around Naboo. So fly "downwards" or "upwards", like from the poles and straight "up". It did not seem to be any TF ships there.

You still have not been able to prove that the TF knew that she was on that ship when it was fired upon.

Since ESB does establish that Vader wants the MF that means that the empire would be going for disabling shots. With the Naboo ship running the blockade, it is not established that they knew Padme was onboard. So that they were trying to disable the ship is not a fact.
And this does not matter anyway. If the blockade was still there and the TF ordered Padme to land on one of their ships or directed her to land somewhere specific on Naboo and if she refused, they would destroy her ship. Padme does not know the blockade is gone so this is a very real danger and yet she and the Jedi ignores it. And what do you, the blockade is magically gone.

Lets' see, pilots being held in a hangar, you think that pilots would have a reason to be in a hangar?
They even had their pilot suits on. On top of that, the Naboo knew that the TF were invading and the ship was ready, fueled and even had some of the queens wardrobe onboard.
And would the TF have a reason to secure that hangar and take the people there captive?
So that no one tries to flee or makes use of the fighters against their forces?

I have proved my point with dialogue and events from the film, you just won't accept it.
And of course you don't think real life camps are relevant because then your argument falls apart instantly.
But why do you think Lucas used the word? Was it to convey an image to the audience, pulling on real-life examples of camps?

From the script;
QUEEN AMIDALA, PADME, EIRTA, YANE, RABE, SACHE, CAPTAIN PANAKA, SIO
BIBBLE,
and FOUR GUARDS are led out of the palace by ten BATTLE DROIDS. The plaza
is filled with tanks and BATTLE DROIDS, which they pass on their way to the
detention camp.

They are being led outside the palace to a detention camp. So why is it so unreasonable to think that this would happen to the rest of the people in the palace, like the pilots?

That is not in the film, you made it up. Panaka meets with people that have formed an underground resistance.

So he did NOT free people in camps, he found those that have avoided capture. Did you forget that?
Perhaps you should watch the movie again?

Other question, how close is Theed to the Gungan city?
Early on, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have to go through the "planet core" to get to it. So it sounds like Theed is on the other side of the planet. But the Gungans are able to move an army from there to pretty close to Theed and by walking or riding it seems.

No passage is not guaranteed as that is never said, you assume so.
Also, if they are forced to land on a TF ship, how could they free security forces and pilots?
Were they being held on that ship? That would be very convenient.
And two Jedi could not take out two destroyer droids and had to make a run for it. So if they ship was met with 20 destroyer droids and also Maul, the Jedi would face an uphill battle.

As for ANH,
First, take the battle in the 3rd act and compare with TPM. ANH makes better sense and is much better thought out. The rebels have looked over the DS plans, they have found a weakness and so they send just fighters. Because a) the DS defenses are not designed against those and b) a fighter could get to the exhaust port and maybe be able to blow up the DS. But that this will be difficult is also conveyed.
So their plan, desperate yes but has some thought behind it. Padme just goes back not knowing much of anything and her "plan" only works because the TF are being helpful.
Also, Luke joins the rebel pilots but he is established as a pilot and a pretty good one earlier and he has Biggs that can vouch for him. So him doing this makes sense.
Taking a nine year old to a war-zone for no reason, said nine year old ending up in a fighter, starting to push buttons at random and then randomly flying out and just happen to destroy the TF ship.
That makes no sense and is instead massively contrived.
Imagine ANH as it is but make Luke nine years old and see if it makes sense.

Second, Han and Luke were able to at first go undetected and they knew where Leia was, thanks to R2. They did not just go to a random prison block and there she was. But soon the alarm goes off and they have to improvise, with mixed results. They are able to flee but later we find out this was Vader's plan.

In closing, the OT has instances of the plot taking convenient short cuts. Luke just happening to land close to Yoda on Dagobah. The red R2 unit, that Owen bought, breaking down right there so R2-D2 can be bought instead. The Ewoks somehow being able to build all these traps in short order. And there are other examples.
And in moderation, I am fine with that.

In TPM, that they happen to land outside the city where Anakin lives. fine. That they happen to pick the shop were Anakin works, fine. That this shop is the only one with the part they want, fine.

That the owner of said shop just happens to be Force immune, that there is no way to exchange money on Tatooine, that Qui-Gon simply does not go to another shop, "buys" goods of equal value to the parts and trade with Watto and instead we have to have this race. Now things are starting to become a bit contrived. And even with this much, I was mostly ok with it.
But when the 3rd act has the TF remove all but one ship, for no reason. Leaving the fighters fueled and armed and also pre-programmed. That Anakin just tags along for no reason. Plus him randomly destroying the TF ship.
That is too much, it totally breaks my immersion and now I am watching a contrived story where stuff happens because plot.
My suspension of disbelief is not infinite.

Not seeing them jump is not enough evidence for me to say they didn't jump.
They never say they can not jump, only that the engine is leaking and they can not reach Coruscant.
In a film, if a car has a leaking gas-tank, that would not make me think the car can not run at all. Just that the car will not be able to get as far because of the leaking gas-tank.
And if they did not jump, the film makes far less sense. So I am willing to go with them jumping even if that is not shown.

Probably but they had to get it from Palpatine first, he has read all of it.

The tracking seemed tied to the message, not them not being able to jump.
The film is not very clear about the message. They say it is a fake and not respond but somehow it is tracked anyway? It would be better if the Naboo did respond but Obi-Wan cuts them off, explains that this is a way for someone to track them and then he warns Qui-Gon. As you said, it would give Obi-Wan something to do.

Agreed.

What could also have worked is that Padme leaves a special communicator to someone who stays behind.
This communicator is very strong and can get through moderate jamming and is very hard to trace. But the limitation is that they only function in pairs of two. So on Tatooine, they get a message about people being put in camps, the suffering, some deaths and it is bad. Padme accepts it as real given that it comes from the person that she gave the communicator to. But unknown to them, the Sith have the tech to trace this signal and make use of it.
Later, the same person contacts Padme when she is on Coruscant, tells her that the TF have removed all but one of their ships, that they have formed an small resistance movement with 2-300 people and some fighters. Now Padme knows more and her going back makes better sense. Why Anakin comes along is still very iffy.

Yeah some bits were cut. You had Sidious telling the TF to destroy Padme as she was of no further use.

That makes it clear that the TF is trying to kill Padme. Of course one wonders why they had removed all their ships. If they had the blockade there, it would be easier to destroy her ship. And later Nute talks about her signing a treaty. So maybe that is why it was cut?

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

If you do not accept that they were trying to disable the ship, then you have nothing to go on to claim that they were definitely intent on killing them either. They do not say they were trying to kill the queen. You don't know if their intention was to shoot at it enough to disable the ship or if they were shooting to kill. The situation is the same as in TESB. We know that Vader wants the crew of the Millennium Falcon alive, and we know the TF want the queen alive.

The ship flying right through the blockade is the same problem as in TESB. Why do the rebels fly right at the Imperial blockade, when they could fly up or down.

The queen has escaped and the queen's ship escapes. They would at least suspect she is on that ship.

The droids have established camp in the hangar and hold the pilots as prisoner. It definitely qualifies as a camp. Some camps are outside the palace.

I brought up the "underground resistance" before. Padmé would not know that they were free of the camps when going back to Naboo. So I brought up the idea to free security forces or subsequently contact the "underground resistance."

Again, you are being reductionist. It is not said "We will definitely allow the queen to land." But you can infer it from the fact that they want her to sign the treaty. Palpatine, the one in charge of the TF, says that they will force her to sign the treaty, as does Panaka.

 

This whole things has devolved to us having to accept that a TF ship can't pivot slightly, can't shoot forward and doesn't have fighters readied during an active blockade. All so the plot can work.

Nope. That is a bunch of hindrances that are never mentioned in the film. Plus, none of those hindrances even make any logical sense.

GL put a lot of effort into the end of ANH so that dogfights in space made sense. This blockade scene is just nonsensical and embarrassing.

 

No need to get snarky with me, I didn't start that. Palpatine says that they will force her to sign the treaty, as does Panaka on the ship on their way to Naboo. The queen's decoy already said she won't be signing the treaty when they first brought it up, yet they still wanted her to sign it. They were going to force her. Which is why when the droids overwhelm her and her security forces, they don't immediately execute her, but capture her and bring her before Nute Gunray.

Did you forget this?

Nute Gunray: "Your little insurrection is at an end, your highness. Time for you to sign the treaty and end this pointless debate in the senate."

About as embarrassing as the blockade run in TESB. The rebels disabled the Star Destroyer with the ion cannon, but why didn't they send TIE Fighters to pursue the escaping rebel ships? You're the one digging deeper to find some miniscule flaw that can't be explained away. If you claim that something is a flaw in the film, you're going to get corrected on that and explanation provided. Again, things can happen without it being needlessly verbalized. I don't know how to say it kindly, but you seem to want things explained like you can't understand simple things happening on screen. You seem to want a narrator telling everything out loud as it happens on screen.

 

I just want things to make sense. There is no reason given why the TF tries to prevent a ship from escaping the blockade... but then stops trying to prevent it once the ship passes over.

If there is a reason the villain is doing something... and then the villain starts doing the exact opposite (trying to stop somebody from doing something and then immediately allowing them to do it one second later) then I need that explained.

All it needs is a few lines of dialogue from one person. Have a hologram of Nute appear in the gunners room.

NUTE: Stop firing. The Queen is on that ship. We need her alive.

Three sentences is all it needs. Without that, or some other reason, it just makes no sense.

And TESB. That ion cannon seems to have done something to that ship and all the electronics on board. We even see the massive Star Destroyer engines flicker. I don't know the logistics of ion cannons, but on screen it takes out everything.

But the TF ship didn't get hit by an ion cannon, so I'm not seeing the connection.

 

See, now you're having to speculate about TESB. It is not mentioned if the ion cannon took out the TIEs inside as well. And wouldn't it have been smart to deploy the TIEs beforehand anyway, just in case they hit the ship with the ion cannon and to pursue any small ships that might get past. They just sat there with all their fighters inside the Star Destroyer like one big present, waiting to be taken out with one shot.

 

You're right. It wasn't very smart. It's almost like they were told about what blockade methods they were to use by an incompetent Imperial Admiral that showed cowardice at the prospect of engaging a Rebel force AND had just been removed from his position due to gross incompetence.

I only wish he hadn't already alerted the Rebels to their presence and thus already basically started the engagement.

 

Vader only says that the admiral made a mistake coming out of hyperspace too close to the system. You're making stuff up now about why they didn't use TIEs. TIEs were still not shown to be affected by the ion shot. It is not mentioned why they don't use them to pursue the escaping rebel ships when they go past the Star Destroyer. Bad script writing. Everything has to be told, you can't infer things.

 

I agree. Glad we're finally on the same page.

 

In the TPM rough draft, there are four other decoy starships like the Queen's that slip out of the blockade at the same time, but are destroyed.

Oddly enough, that same idea also shows up in a mission in LucasArts' X-Wing game from 1993, where the Tantive IV is traveling among four other decoy corvettes.

 

Well Maul didn't rush off to fight the gungan army. He probably expected (or at least suspected) that the queen was elsewhere and he was still waiting for her to make her move clear.

 

Probably for the same reason Nute was hanging out where Padme guessed he would be... They both read the script.

 

If in a film, character A takes out a gun and starts to shoot at character B. Unless the film gives a good reason for me to think otherwise, I will go with the idea that character A intends harm on character B.
What is in the film is the TF shooting and damaging the ship that Padme was on. That is fact.
That they were trying to disable it is and all that is not.

That is explained, the Ion cannon would shoot several blasts that would take out any imperial ship in their flight path.

Not only does this explain why they do what they do but since it also establishes that the shield can only be lowered for a short time, then they flight path is in some way controlled. Also we have a rebel ask the obvious, "Two fighters against a Star Destroyer?" Indicating that he can think and is aware of the situation. The blockade is just something that Padme and the Jedi seemingly forgets existed.

And speaking of ESB.

How much time passed between the ISD getting hit and the rebel ships getting past it?
About five seconds. Not really a lot of time to launch fighters. And we see that the ISD did get messed up, the engines were odd, electrical discharges were going on over the ship. So the ship was clearly damaged, that is shown.

Why didn't they have TIE's out already? Maybe the captain underestimated the rebels. When told that rebels ship were coming his way, his reaction was "Good, our first catch of the day."
He did not seem very worried, this would be easy. Later on however, we see that TIEs are out so maybe the imperials realized their error and what the Ion Cannon can do and launched fighters.
The empire are shown as making mistakes but at times being able to learn from those mistakes.
Take the DS, they made an error in having their defenses not taking fighters into consideration.
But once they realized their guns were less than effective, they launched fighters. They were also able to analyze the rebel attack and conclude that there was a danger. Again showing that they can think.

The TF has had their blockade there for some time and they know that an invasion has been launched. So now would be the time when a ship would try to run the blockade. So they would be extra prepared.

The dialogue is strange.

Nute says she has disappeared and that one ship got past their blockade. If they think she was on that, why not say so?
Nute:" The queen has escaped and we believe she was on the ship that got past our blockade."
Simpler.

It does not qualify as a camp in any sense of the word. No facilities, no fences or anything holding the prisoners in.
If you can accept that there are camps outside the palace, why do you persist in arguing that these people would not be taken there? Why would these people stay put? Having your prisoners in a camp makes guarding them a lot easier, you have them contained. It also makes freeing them harder. If the TF keep anyone they take prisoner right where they took them and make that a "camp". Then a person that was taken in his office, that office is now a "camp". Anyone that was taken in a corridor, that corridor is now a "camp".

No what you said was this;

Where you tried to argue that people were held in Theed and Panaka fetches them.
That is once again you making stuff up. What is in the film is Panaka saying that most people are in camps but some hundred people have formed an underground movement so this would be people that were NOT in camps. And those are the ones he brought. He did not free anyone from any camp.
So you still have not proved that any security forces are held in Theed.

And Padme would have no way of knowing it anyone has formed any underground movement nor could she know where various people are held. So if she goes back with that as her plan, she is a moron.

Arguing that any place where people are held captive qualifies as a camp is absurdly reductive.
And Padme says that Palpatine said that the TF means to destroy her. The writing is not being very consistent. And Sidious tells the TF to wipe out the Gungan army, not having any idea if Padme is close by or not. If he thinks she is not there, warn the TF that this is a diversion, that Padme is elsewhere.

And the point is the blockade, which you admit that Padme would not know it is gone so if it still there, what could happen?
Padme knows that last time she ran the blockade, her ship was fired at and damaged. So the TF are able to fire at her ship. And you know what else they could do, this "disabling thing" that you like to bring up.
And if that happens, her ship is disabled and can not land and she can not contact the Gungans, free any captive security people or do much of anything. Her ship will be taken into on the TF ships and she is taken captive. Either she signs the treaty and is then killed or she refuses and is killed. Either way, it is bad for Padme. And for the Jedi.
What could also happen if the blockade is still there and the TF is keen have Padme land somewehere.
They would contact her ship, order it to land on one of their ships, see above, or at some designated place on Naboo, again see above. And if she does not comply, they will destroy her ship. Again bad.
And yet neither Padme not the Jedi seem to consider any of this, they just forget all about the blockade and when they get to Naboo, it is simply gone. Very convenient.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

The whole ending doesn't make much sense. Padme has made a battle plan based off information she doesn't yet have in the film.

And the TF, for some reason, are still focused on the treaty. Why?
1) Even though Sidious already has what he wants and now has no reason to keep Padme alive. You'd think he'd tell them to kill her (he does say to wipe everyone out, but apparently it was heavily inferred by the film that this doesn't include Padme)
2) The cats already out of the bag about the invasion. Yeah, nobody believed her, but she's obviously not going to sign the treaty.

The treaty is just a macguffin for an end battle, but at this point it makes no sense for either Padme or the TF or Sidious to give two ****s about the treaty.

 

You're having to "make stuff up" about why the Empire didn't deploy TIEs just like the TF didn't deploy Vulture droids. I am fine with inferring things and reading between the lines, because that's part of analyzing art, but by your rules, that is "making stuff up." It is not shown or mentioned why they don't use TIEs.

Whatever. It's not a camp. Maybe there were no camps in Theed. Padmé's plan could still be locating and freeing the captive security forces, that are likely somewhere close to Theed.

If Padmé's ship is taken into a TF ship, they could hatch a plan. They have a better group of people than the Millennium Falcon crew in ANH, and they were able to infiltrate the Death Star, a far larger battle station. Usually in these things the heroes come up with a plan in the nick of time. In the film, it was the gungan army plan.

The treaty is of interest to the TF because it will make their actions legal and they would get the planet. It was Sidious' promise to them.

Probably because Sidious sent Maul to join Nute in the first place and told him to be mindful and let them make the first move. Why wouldn't Nute be in the throne room?

 

Why would he be? Why would he even remain on the planet at all?

The TF sending the other blockade ships means they consider the Naboo situation taken care of. Otherwise, why would you relocate your forces elsewhere.

So why would Nute stay there at all? In the context of the move, he's pretty high up in the chain of command of the TF. Doesn't he have responsibilities?

He's only still there because he's the ""main villain"" and we need to have victory against him. Therefore, he has to be there when the good guys win.

 

He's there to oversee the total conquest of his new planet. It's like the Emperor going to DSII to oversee its construction, though it's really so we can have a final confrontation with him.

 

Palpatine went to the DSII as irresistible bait to draw out the Alliance. Is that what Nute is doing? Acting as bait for Padme?

The film does not seem to be hinting at this. As a matter of fact, Nute's entire personality is one of cowardice. So why is he here at all?

And if the planet is good and conquered, then why still fuss about the treaty? And if it's not already conquered... then why send the other TF ships away?

All the things that need to happen in order to get to the predetermined ending that GL wants are never given an explanation. All these odd and random occurrences just seem to take place randomly/conveniently.

TPM is like peeling away the layers of an onion, but all the layers seem to contradict the previous layer.