Saga Anakin Skywalker - Character Discussion...among other things.

If Vader killing the Emperor redeems him, why would Luke killing the Emperor turn him to the dark side? If he doesn't do it in anger he is doing his job.

 

I don’t think the Emperor ever lowers his guard to Luke. He taunts him to strike him down since he is unarmed, but we know he can use lightning to hold it back. Is there any actual commentary that says there’s no way Luke can kill him without turning, because if not I think it’s more logical that Darth Vader is the only one who can do it because he surprises the Emperor from behind

 

How do you kill someone without any anger? Now all I can see if Luke beating Plapy to death while saying "Oh boy! Here I go killing again!"

 

Because Luke didn't finish his training, thus he is vulnerable to the dark side. He doesn't yet understand why a Jedi must never use the dark side to take a life. Ergo, Luke tries to avoid fighting. But Palpatine exploits this by using his trap to goad Luke into attacking him. It is only by going to the edge of the abyss does he understand and reject it. Once he finally gets it, does he understand that he doesn't have to kill him. He can continue to wait on his friends to destroy the Death Star, while he himself will die as a Jedi. Luke has already achieved his victory.

Meanwhile, Anakin sees Luke's actions as an affirmation of the Jedi way. He realizes that his son still loves him despite all the terrible things he has said and done. He is the best part of him and Padme. Their love created him and he cannot let him die.

If Luke kills Palpatine, he is only doing so for selfish reasons. To protect his loved ones. The very same reason Anakin turned in the first place.

"When you get down to where we are right now in the story, you basically get somebody who’s going to make a pact with the Devil, and it’s going to be a pact with the Devil that says, 'I want the power to save somebody from death. I want to be able to stop them from going to the river Styx, and I need to go to a god for that, but the gods won’t do it, so I’m going to go down to Hades and get the Dark Lord to allow me to have this power that will allow me to save the very person I want to hang on to.' You know, it’s Faust. So Anakin wants that power, and that is basically a bad thing. If you’re going to sell your soul to save somebody you love, that’s not a good thing. That’s as we say in the film, unnatural. You have to accept that natural course of life. Of all things. Death is obviously the biggest of them all. Not only death for yourself but death for the things you care about."

--George Lucas, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005.

Take that quote and combine it with the second quote on page 53, post 1325 and that should clear it up for you.

 

Seems to me, killing the Emperor restored balance to the galaxy, but it didn't redeem Anakin. Returning to the light side through selflessness and compassion did.

Right. But I gather the chances were higher the Emperor would goad him into using anger or hate, etc. Yoda warned Luke not to underestimate him.

And I'm not sure it's established that killing Palpatine in anger would instantly turn Luke into a Sith or something like that. Going by Anakin, it would put him on a slippery slope to the dark side, forever dominating his destiny.

After killing the Tuskens, Anakin became obsessed with obtaining the power to stop death, but he wasn't automatically a dark sider. But now that he's had a dip into the dark side, it will get harder to resist when the temptation pops up again. And as mentioned, he later went ape when Padmé fell out of the gunship and hastily charged Dooku in lust for revenge, allowing Dooku to escape and start the war. He's starting to become fixated on his selfish desires, at the expense of everything else.

Then later, when Dooku incompacitates Obi-Wan and Anakin must fight him alone, he hardly hesitates at all to use the dark side to gain an edge over Dooku, in anger over Obi-Wan's possible death and revenge for his arm. And then he puts up little resistance to killing an unarmed Dooku. Later when presented with the possibility to learn how to stop death, he finds it almost impossible to resist, now completely consumed by fear and thirst for power.

So, had Luke killed the Emperor in anger I'd say it probably wouldn't have immedieatly made him a full-on dark sider, but he'd be compromised and not fit for Jedihood, for now he's a prime candidate for becoming completely consumed by his dark emotions and cravings. It's kind of like the One Ring in a way.

 

It's probably easier to turn someone like Luke, who is more easily corruptible than Anakin, who needed years of work. Luke doesn't have years of intensive Jedi training to make things difficult.

 

Luke also isn't a psycho like Anakin.

 

don't try to think too much into it...your brain will melt.

 

Vader's action was in defense of his son, I think, not out of personal hatred of Palpatine.

In pursuit of protecting others, out of caring for one, not hatred for the other, I think.

 

My perspective is that Luke was never going to beat the Emperor "in combat" - him keeping his lightsaber and attacking Palpatine was going to be futile. I am not saying it would have definitely, or even probably, led to him turning to the Dark Side, although it may have. BUT if he struck down the then-helpless Vader in anger (once he had Vader down, had cut off his hand, etc) he opened himself up to potentially being tainted by the Dark Side. The only way he "wins" in that situation is by doing what he does - going "all in" that Vader will return to the Light side. That act of pure faith seems crazy from a lot of perspectives - Luke basically makes himself totally helpless. But it was the only "win scenario" there.

It's also my perspective that Luke isn't explicitly thinking of beating Palpatine at the moment he throws down his saber, nor is he thinking about the "Chosen One" idea (it isn't clear to me that Luke even KNOWS Vader/Anakin was once thought of as "the Chosen One" - I don't know for sure but I don't recall the "Chosen One" being discussed in the OT). "All" Luke is trying to do there is to save his father. Luke doesn't exactly have a lot of time for reflection but I don't believe Luke is thinking "if I throw my lightsaber away, my Dad will return to the Light Side and we'll defeat Palpatine in combat together" (and given the shape Vader is in - how could he?). For Luke, at that point, a win is returning his father to the Light Side. Whatever else happens after that, not sure Luke really knows (or even cares, in some senses).

PS - BTW, it's made pretty clear that the Jedi aren't pacifists. It isn't fighting, or even killing an opponent, that is a Dark Side risk. It's motivation - are you fueled by fear or anger or vengeance or selfishness?

 

It wasn't.

 

I do not think that Luke, when he throws down his saber, has any plan to "win." He came within an inch of turning and killing Vader in Hate would have turned him.
He managed to back away and pass that test. But to turn around and attack the emperor, that could risk him going into that trap again. And given what Vader just said, that he would try and turn Leia, would Luke have much reason to think that Vader has much good in him?

I doubt Luke knew exactly what the emperor would do, he was not told about his Force lightning power nor how to block it.
But I think that didn't matter to Luke. He was calm, he had passed the test and he was a Jedi.
What comes after that, he left up to the universe. He did not want to die but given what he knew, him living would be very unlikely.
As far as he knows, the rebels are still getting decimated so how could he help?
Fight his way out? Pass Palpatine and however many guards there are on the DS2?
Not likely to work.
So again, I don't think Luke is thinking about that or making plans, he passed his test and that is all for now. If he dies then so be it, he will not become a slave to evil.

He pleads with his father when he is being tortured but again, I don't think that was part of some plan.
It is just his reaction.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Luke already won the minute he throws his Lightsaber away. That's why he tells Palpatine that he failed to turn him and now he is a Jedi.

 

Well, this is interesting. I'd be intrigued to see what Lucas removed.

The interesting thing is that the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel has the most realistic martial arts moves of any of the prequel duels, which is kind of amazing when one considers how long the fight is. I think it works well in the movie. I'm not a fan of the "tennis match" Anakin and Obi-Wan have during the duel in the novelization.



Some people don't like how Vader uses this dark humor as he kills the Separatists in the novelization. But I think it is true to his character. Vader makes dark jokes fairly often. His words to Krennic and Needa show that he has a pretty depraved sense of sarcasm. And I can't deny that I find it amusing in a way that I shouldn't. I mean, it is unintentionally amusing when one of the Separatists told him that Sidious had promised them peace, and Anakin says, "The transmission was grabbled. He promised you would be left in pieces." And, of course, the Separatists were promised a "handsome reward," and Vader says, "I'm your reward. Don't you find me handsome?" By this point, he is killing people he wanted to kill anyway, and the dark side is perverting his nature. It's using his aggression and twisting it into something worse. So, I don't mind it. He honestly talks like some of my villains in my novels in that scene.

 

Very interesting. I'm sure to have read the novelization at least twice, but can't seem to remember those remarks. We are still talking about the original 2005 Matthew Stover novelization, not a later revision, right?

 

Yup.

The scenes:

A tall cloaked figure, slim but broad-shouldered, face shadowed by a heavy hood, stood in the doorway.
San Hill beat the others to the greeting. “Welcome, Lord Vader!” His elongated legs almost tangled with each other in his rush to shake the hand of the Sith Lord. “On behalf of the leadership of the Confederacy of Independent Systems, let me be the first to—”
“Very well. You will be the first.”
The cloaked figure stepped inside and made a gesture with a black-gloved hand. Blast doors slammed across every exit. The control panel exploded in a shower of sparking wires.
The cloaked figure threw back its hood.
San Hill recoiled, hands flapping like panicked birds sewn to his wrists.
He had time to gasp, “You’re—you’re Anakin Skywalker!” before a fountain of blue-white plasma burned into his chest, curving through a loop that charred all three of his hearts.
The Separatist leadership watched in frozen horror as the corpse of the head of the InterGalactic Banking Clan collapsed like a depowered protocol droid.
“The resemblance,” Darth Vader said, “is deceptive.”


Within the Separatist leadership bunker’s control center were dozens of combat droids. There were armed and armored guards. There were automated defense systems.
There were screams, and tears, and pleas for mercy. None of them mattered. The Sith had come to Mustafar.
Poggle the Lesser, Archduke of Geonosis, scrambled like an animal through a litter of severed arms and legs and heads, both metal and flesh, whimpering, fluttering his ancient gauzy wings until a bar of lightning flash-burned his own head free of his neck.
Shu Mai, president and CEO of the Commerce Guild, looked up from her knees, hands clasped before her, tears streaming down her shriveled cheeks. “We were promised a reward,’’ she gasped. “A h—h—handsome reward—”
“I am your reward,” the Sith Lord said. “You don’t find me handsome?”
“Please!” she screeched through her sobbing. “Pleee—” The blue-white blade cut into and out from her skull, and her corpse swayed. A negligent flip of the wrist slashed through her column of neck rings. Her brain-burned head tumbled to the floor.
The only sound, then, was a panicky stutter of footfalls as Wat Tambor and the two Neimoidians scampered along a hallway toward a nearby conference room.
The Sith Lord was in no hurry to pursue. All the exits from the control center were blast-shielded, and they were sealed, and he had destroyed the controls.
The conference room was, as the expression goes, a dead end.


Rune Haako, aide and confidential secretary to the viceroy of the Trade Federation, tripped over a chair as he stumbled back. He fell to the floor, shaking like a grub in a frying pan, trying to scrabble beneath the table.
“Stop!” he cried. “Enough! We surrender, do you understand? You can’t just kill us—”
The Sith Lord smiled. “Can’t I?”
“We’re unarmed! We surrender! Please—please, you’re a Jedi!”
“You fought a war to destroy the Jedi.” Vader stood above the shivering Neimoidian, smiling down upon him, then fed him half a meter of plasma. “Congratulations on your success.”
The Sith Lord stepped over Haako’s corpse to where Wat Tambor clawed uselessly at the transparisteel wall with his armored gauntlets. The head of the Techno Union turned at his approach, cringing, arms lifted to shield his faceplate from the flames in the dragon’s eyes. “Please, I’ll give you anything. Anything you want!”
The blade flashed twice; Tambor’s arms fell to the floor, followed by his head.
“Thank you.”
Darth Vader turned to the last living leader of the Confederacy of Independent Systems.
Nute Gunray, viceroy of the Trade Federation, stood trembling in an alcove, blood-tinged tears streaming down his green-mottled cheeks. “The war... ,” he whimpered. “The war is over—Lord Sidious promised—he promised we would be left in peace...”
“His transmission was garbled.” The blade came up. “He promised you would be left in pieces.’’

 

Thanks! I really need to re-read it, along with the rest of the prequel novels. I do find them better written and more in-depth than the OT ones. Recently re-read ANH, not bad but not very much additional info or backstory either.

 

The prequel novelizations are more in-depth than the OT ones. I do like TESB's novelization the best, since we see more of Yoda training Luke, and there are various details added to things like Vader's conversation with his master. But the prequel novelizations add to the stories of TPM and AOTC. ROTS is basically the same story in book form as it was in the movie. However, Matt Stover re-contextualizes it and gives Anakin more agency.

As good as Ian McDiarmid and Ewan McGregor are in ROTS, I think Hayden Christensen carries the movie. While you do lack some of the context of the novelization, such as Anakin being sleep-deprived, you can buy this troubled young man is obsessed with trying to find the right solution to save his wife. It's like a dark, tragic opera.

I like his facial expressions in this scene here.



There is also a deleted scene of Hayden and Ian performing as Anakin and Palpatine during which the former says he will be appointed to the Council when he's "older and wiser," and Hayden handles that well. It's like Anakin is trying to be humble, but he doesn't quite pull it off. So, there are many examples of Hayden being a good actor in this film. One thing I've always noticed is that he was hesitant to hug Padme a couple of times. The first time is because he is more focused on what they were talking about than her, and he only holds her because she asked him to. And the second time on Mustafar, he's so obsessed with his own power that he doesn't empathize with her anymore. The dark side can have that effect on people. He starts out the film as a hero, or someone who is trying to be one, and he gradually transforms into this scary guy in the movie. Apparently, Hayden was willing to roll down that hill with the blue things on his limbs rather than allowing a stuntman to do it. So, he did a damn good job in this movie. I'd like to meet him at a convention someday. He seems more humble than Anakin, since he was willing to watch TCW and Rebels to prepare for his recent role as Anakin/Vader, and he was willing to give credit to others. It's a shame he got a rep as a bad actor because he actually reminds me of Ian McDiarmid in some ways, given the way he prepares for roles and the way they both have good lexicons.

 

Most novelizations during the 60-80's didn't add a whole that deviated from the draft that was being used. This was true of not just the OT, but books like "Rocky". "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" was one of the first to add material that expanded upon the film. Soon after the sequels crafted whole story arcs. The PT books followed suit.

As to what was cut, the most notable was Anakin and Obi-Wan exchanging Lightsabers.

 

ROTS is one of my all time favorite SW novels and I love smart ass Anakin.

I appreciate Hayden's willingness to put in as much physical work as he can. All the make up and prosthetics just for Obi Wan alone, he gets major kudos from me. I do think he has some of the best facial acting in the scene you mentioned as well as the entire sequence of Shmi's death.

Have you seen any of his other films? I like most of his other stuff. Jumper and Takers are just fun to watch. I love Life as a House, He got industry noms for that and Shattered Glass. He showcases a bit of comedy in Little Italy but that film makes me cringe because of Emma Roberts as his love interest. They should have gotten a younger actor to fill his role honestly because the age difference is obvious and the chemistry doesn't come across as natural. Or they could have cast an older actress and adjusted the plot a bit.

Loved his return in Obi Wan and I'm looking forward to seeing him in Ahsoka.

I had a VIP ticket to meet him at Ace in Boston which got canceled because of COVID. He has a great reputation as being very gracious and kind with fans in all his interactions.

 

I've actually seen quite a few of his movies. I don't like to judge certain actors on the basis of one or two movies, especially when they get a bad wrap.

 

The ROTS novelization is one of my all time favorites.

Really wish Lucas would have done an additional draft of the script with Stover doing the dialogues and used this one for the movie.

Gesendet von meinem TA-1053 mit Tapatalk

 

The first two images don't show up on this Monterrey Apple computer for some reason.

 

They are the Lightsabers.

 

I actually read the novelization before I saw the movie. I did a book report about it as one of my final assignments before I graduated high school. Stover does a good job of helping us to feel sorry for Anakin in the beginning to feeling disturbed by him toward the end.