Saga Anakin Skywalker - Character Discussion...among other things.

The Tusken Raider massacre is a good example of why the PT didn't connect with a lot of people. In the OT, our characters go through these radical life changing scenarios, but it just seems like normal day-to-day things because these are serial films. It's why the OT doesn't end with everyone having severe PTSD. But then what's weird about the PT is that the characters still go through similarly heightened serial-esque adventures/scenarios/etc, but they are drastically effected by them.

And the Tusken massacre situation is where Lucas had to draw a line in the sand because Padme is effected by this scenario like an OT character would be (it's nothing because everything in this galaxy is cranked up to 11 anyway) but Anakin is deeply effected by it. We all saw how Luke got effected by finding his Aunt and Uncle had been killed... he forgot all about it two scene's later.

Things like the Tusken massacre create a disconnect in the audience because we're not sure how to interpret what we're seeing. Why is it realistic to Anakin, but hyper serialized for Padme? The meta answer is because Anakin's got to get put in a robot suit.

 

Well, there is a woman tortured in one of the tents so they at least dont care.
And in the official books to the movies are some additional chapters on Tatooine, in TPM where Anakin saves a Tusken and in AOTC the kidnapping of shmi and the attempted rescue where many farmers got slaughtered and Cliegg Lars lost his leg.
In the TPM chapter Anakin was almost killed by other Tusken, but the one he saved stopped them, but only because of their honor code.
The Tusken are just savages.
Was it over the top that Anakin kill the Tusken children, yes maybe, but without the tribe or at least one adult who knows to survive they would have died anyway in the desert.

 

Yeah; look it works for some people and that's fine (heck, if I just ignore how the scene reads and focus on what Lucas intended I can at least accept it myself), but like a lot of things in the PT (and ST) relative to the OT it seems to really hit-or-miss whether or not it works for people.

Did they even know? And if they *did* know, did they have the power to stop it?

Your making a *lot* of assumptions here; if I kidnapped someone, stashed them in the attached shed behind my condo and tortured them, would it be justified for a relative of the person who I kidnapped to respond by killing not just me, but my roommate, my cat, my nine-year old niece and every other resident of the condominium? There's a thing called proportional response, you know.

And all that has...what, to do with the children (and women?)

My ancestors said the same thing about Native Americans - heck, the British said the same thing about my ancestor's ancestors.

Oh? So it was mercy then?

Let's be honest. That thought never entered Anakin's mind - he didn't care if the kids or anyone else was involved or not, and he didn't care about what might happen to the children if he was left alone; he was blinded by his rage and out for blood.

 

She was in a tent, if she got tortured there everyone would know and it was small tribe doubtfull that nobody knows whats going on.
Since its a small tribe its probably consisting mostly of family members and all tribes have leaders which everyone has to follow.
And like I said Tusken are a very aggresive culture, there is no reason to believe otherwise.
We have over 40 years of Star Wars content, I cant remember one nice Tusken and if one exist its an exception.
So I really think they just dont care.

Like I said, I believe the whole tribe was in it, except the kids maybe.
In our real world tribes still exist, and some are very aggresive to outsiders, the Tusken are like this.
They attacking the farmers on Tatooine when they feel like it and kidnap people for whatever reason. I mean they wanted to kidnap Luke, the poor boy just took a break in the canyons.
So your comparison doesnt fit.

Nothing, but you mentioned the entire village.
And since the chapter in AOTC is exactly about these Tusken, I thought it was worth mentioning.

And this is partly true, there were very aggresive native tribes which not only attacked settlers but other peaceful natives as well and did cruel stuff.
There is one difference, there are no peaceful Tusken.
The Tusken are a underdeveloped culture and one the aggresive ones.

Of course he did not care, they killed his mom.
Many would do the same in rage, but yes killing the tuskenkiddies is still too much.
A normal human would probably just killed the dangerous Tusken and left the others alone, if they are mercyful.
But dont forget Anakin is not a normal human, he is a force user and since anger feeds the darkside its no wonder that he goes on a complete killingspree.
He probably just saw completly red, controlled by the dark side.

 

Maybe. But at the same time, could those who knew - children specifically - be expected to stop it or reasonably held responsible for not doing so? If I murder someone, is it justified to kill my niece - who at nine-years old has no influence, authority or ability to stop such a crime from occuring and lacks a fully developed capacity to reason about such things - as retribution just because she happened to be in the house?

The second season of The Mandalorian would tend to disagree with the above statements (as would the section of the ATOC novelization you mentioned earlier).

(Furthermore in Legends (since you brought up "over forty years" of content)...)

Tahiri Veila was raised as a Tusken, and she was a pretty nice person before torture and trauma unrelated to being a Tusken caused her to fall to the Dark Side. Her adopted father Silven seemed quite honorable and reasonable as well.

Darth Krayt was born and raised in a Tusken clan (though his father wasn't a Tusken by birth) and was originally a pretty solidly "good" Jedi before he, like Tahiri, fell to the Dark Side for reasons unrelated to his origins.

The Tusken Tribe in KOTOR, though initially hostile, can be reasoned with diplomatically and even befriended to a degree.

And Anakin killed the kids, so... *shrug*.

That's the point - he didn't care and he went to far, and Padme (seemingly) didn't care that he didn't care and went to far. Anakin killing those who hurt his mom is understandable, but what should have been alarming to Padme (and apparently wasn't, based on how the film presents things, IMO) is that he also killed EVERYONE, including the woman and the children (we should not that the children we see look VERY young and it's more than probable on a statistics level there was at least a baby or two in the camp). This apparently didn't bother her - or if it did it didn't bother her for very long - as she made no attempt to alert anyone of what happened but also knowingly and willfully concealed his crime and shortly after decided to go all-in on a romance with him, later expressing shock when he...killed more kids...

The discussion here is more about Padme's (lack of a) reaction to what Anakin did then what Anakin...well...did.

 

That could probably be said for the majority of the scenes in the PT.

Well... let's be honest about what Tuskens are. They're Indians (Native Americans). As far as ANH is concerned, Tatooine is the old west. The cantina is a saloon, The Lar's are farmers/settlers. The Tuskens are Indians. And no, I don't think Lucas is a racist, I just think he's playing off earthly visuals to make an alien environment more understandable to a viewing audience. The man takes these types of shortcuts so that he doesn't have to do an exposition dump in the middle of his movie about what a Tusken Raider is. We already know because we know what westerns are.

I think the issue surrounding this series of events is that it's over the top. Had Anakin confessed to Padme that he murdered a handful of Tuskens in a hateful rage and left the rest to scurry off into the Tatooine wilderness, I think Padme's reaction would be completely understandable. I think anyone, including the audience, would understand exactly why Anakin flew off the handle. The ominous foreshadowing would be, not from the killings themselves, but from the fact that we all know that Anakin used the dark side when he did what he did. THAT's the takeaway we're supposed to get.

I don't know why Lucas felt the need to crank the situation up to eleven, also have Padme be understanding about Anakin murdering innocents, AND THEN have her act genuinely shocked in the sequel when Anakin does it again. That is what confounds me.

 

Having watched Revenge of the Sith last night, and having been completely unaware of this thread/discussion about Padme's reaction, I by coincidence actually made a point to observe Padme's reaction to Anakin's downfall more than I normally do because I wanted to analyze their relational dynamic more.

I actually thought she came across as someone who, though trying to deny it, seems to believe what Obi-Wan said. Mainly it's in her eyes as well as sort of in her mannerisms in how she responds to Obi-Wan's comments. She seems to know he's telling the truth or dreading it, but she just doesn't want it to be true. "You're wrong, how could you even say that!" is too jumpy and defensive for someone who genuinely doesn't believe what he's said. Her line "Not Anakin..." has a sort of weak uncertain tone to it rather than a strongly convicted one. Her enunciation of "I don't believe you, I can't" was the most obvious, as it didn't sound at all to me like she was convinced of what she was saying. She admits she is in denial in saying "I can't", and the emotion of her eyes suggests to me a fear that Obi-Wan is telling the truth. Similarly, her quiet expressions while in the ship leaving Coruscant and then when arriving on Mustafar both also suggested a longing dread, as though she felt Obi-Wan's statement was true but was just desperately hoping it would prove untrue.

So I don't agree at all that "she was completely shocked" as some here have said. She seemed conscious of Anakin's past dark history. Again, I had no awareness of this thread until now and didn't know anyone was discussing this subject at all, so I didn't watch these scenes with the intention of arguing a point to anyone. This was a completely independent take I got from watching these scenes last night.

 

@CaptainSuchandSuch

I would say that the delivery of her line to Anakin on Mustafar, about Obi-Wan telling her that Anakin killed younglings, doesn't read that she is hoping it's not true, but more that she doesn't think it could ever happen in the first place. I mean, you could probably read her facial reaction in a handful of ways, but she definitely doesn't look like she's pleading for Anakin to tell her it's not true. She looks like she can't even fathom it having happened in the first place.

 

"Definitely"? I'd say your reading of her expression as not hoping against hope is definitely not the only possible one. Besides, you're isolating one line delivery from it's context. The interpretation offered by @CaptainSuchandSuch takes the whole sequence of Padmé learning the truth into account and is entirely accurate. As far as I'm concerned, NP's performance holds up to scrutiny the whole way in the context of Padmé first having intuited the truth, then having it confirmed, denying it, pleading for it not be true and finally accepting it.

It's true, in a way, that she can't believe what's happening, because she really thought Anakin had learned his lesson and would never ever do something like that again. She is shocked, betrayed and overwhelmed by it all (not just Anakin, but Palpatine and the Empire too) and to me, her reactions reflect that perfectly.

 

We're talking about an actors performance. If the performances are all over the place then what use is it to factor in one, but not another?

The more realistic take away is that Lucas basically redid the turn scene and changed the narrative of the first half of the movie, but didn't do anything for the second half. Which is why when Anakin later screams about knowing the Jedi were plotting to take over, given the context that Hayden was told (what the story was before Lucas changed things around in post production) Anakin actually believes what he is saying because when those scene's were filmed the Jedi had been plotting to take over. Originally, the Jedi went to oust the Chancellor before they even knew he was a Sith Lord.

But now in the official edit... what am I supposed to take from that line delivery? Does Anakin really believe it? Does Anakin know he's lying and he's just grasping at straws to excuse his behavior? The truth is, it's whatever the viewer wants because the actors facial expressions are emoting an intent that no longer fits with the narrative.

When Hayden read those lines, the Jedi were written to be ousting the Chancellor simply because Greivous has been killed. So trying to get an actors intent from this hobbled together, Frankenstein's monster of a film is fruitless. It's like staring at a Rorschach test... you see what you want to see.

 

But the "Jedi are taking over" angle is still there - and they are actually plotting to take control of the Senate - even it was trimmed down. I agree that we all see what we want to see, but that's ultimately true for all movies.
To me, Anakin's lines read as him convincing himself that Palpatine speaks the truth, in order to justify his actions.

 

The movie basically has Obi-Wan say that he's allowed Palpatine to twist his mind.

I remember seeing a behind the scenes thing that had George Lucas explaining to Hayden Christensen, something along the lines of this being his justification or something like that.

The thing is, in both versions, if there was another, the jedi are still making moves to take over, moreso at different points.

I've thought similarly. Yeah, I think she's shocked about the turn too the dark side aspect. But, I think she's coming to believe it over the course of the scene, more and more.

 

Padmé has seen Anakin's recent desperate behavior and agitated mood. She knows he's still concerned about his nightmares and heard him vow to prevent what he fears. During the rumination scene she senses something unsettling. She breaks into tears when she sees the Jedi Temple on fire, and I think there's more to it than just fearing for Anakin's safety. There might be possibilities and she doesn't want to consider them.

When Obi-Wan tells her what he saw in the recording I get the sense she fears there's a chance it could be true but doesn't want it to be. She hopes Obi-Wan is mistaken. But her intuition is weighing on her as well. Especially since she knows, while Kenobi doesn't, that this could very well because of Anakin's talk of keeping her from dying in childbirth.

When she lands on Mustafar and thinks in the cockpit before seeing Anakin coming towards her, I feel there is a sense of dread mixed with hope for this to all be some misunderstanding. And I hear this when she tells him what Obi-Wan told her.

There's definitely a lot of nuance in her responses. And it's not contrived writing because I've heard women, including @Tonyg say they predicted each of Padmé's responses to Obi-Wan's statements in this scene right before she says them.*

Even Williams' music gives us an insight. The repeated ominous melody is like a thought being repeated in over and over in Padmé's mind. The things Anakin had been saying, the ways he's been acting, Obi-Wan's news of Palpatine etc. She's trying to add it all up. Could it be true? It can't!

*Just like Padmé's reaction to Anakin's confession in AotC. To react in any sort of adverse way would only have made things worse for him. Of course she thinks it was horrific, yet someone she cares about is also going through a crisis and needs a rock.

Anakin felt personally responsible for not finding his mother sooner and for not being able to save her from dying when he did eventually find her. And he was fully responsible for the massacre and felt he betrayed his Jedi ethics, on top of feeling he failed in his potential as a powerful Force wielder.

Luke bore no responsibility for his Aunt & Uncle's death, especially after Ben assured him there was nothing he could've done. Nor Leia for the destruction of Alderaan, (though she was the one caught and interrogated), etc.
Most traumatic events happen to the characters. Anakin carried all the weight of the events at the Tusken camp on his own shoulders, bringing his own trauma upon himself. Thus creating his complexes, conflicts and motivations.

Like most people, Anakin doesn't want his loved ones to die. He's also a powerful Force user. Palpatine is influencing him. It's how stories work. I personally think it's an epic, compelling, poetic, Greekspearian way to "get put in a robot suit".

"Machines making machines."

 

Nuance is about a lot more than writing; it needs to be sold by the actors and the director, and IMO that did not end up happening.

Certainly there are people (men and women) who had no issue with Padme's reaction towards Anakin's confession/see the nuance that Lucas no doubt meant their dynamic to have - this thread, as well as the fandom around both characters and their relationship, is evidence enough of that - and that's a totally fair and valid view to have. But for many others, such as myself, Lucas, Hayden and Portman failed to sell us on what they were peddling, and so the who dynamic comes off looking bizarre and unbelievable.

Well, if we didn't know that before The Mandalorian hammering it over our head with the visual parallels made it crystal clear; it wouldn't have been any more obvious if Cobb Vanth had been wearing a tin star and a cowboy hat

 

No, the Jedi are not plotting to take over. The Jedi discuss what they should do IF Palpatine does not give up his extra powers and and stand down when the war is over. That he would then be violating his promise and is trying to take over and become a despot. The Jedi argue that they should not just allow this to happen but should try to remove him from office. But it might not be as simple as that. That just removing Palpatine would not solve everything instantly So they bring up the senate and that they might need to disband it but Yoda warns that this would take them to a dark place.
So they don't plot as such, they are, for once, talking about what their options are in case Palpatine decides to seize power. And when they are talking here they have no idea that Palpatine is a Sith. But they have not decided on anything.
Yes you have Mace for some reason suddenly thinking that the senate/courts can not deal with Palpatine when he was fine with that 2 minutes earlier. I have said before, that reasoning makes not much sense.

As for Anakin, he told Mace that Palpatine would not give up his powers and he was fine with arresting him.
His motivations is about one thing and on thing only, Padme.
Which he says;

So go with that. Palpatine can say that Anakin need to destroy the Jedi as they will be coming for the both of them and if they kill Palpatine, Anakin will never get what he wants. And Anakin needs to kill and go deep into the dark side in order to pull off the "Stop death spell"
And Anakin just agrees.
No need for him say anything about a Jedi plot, which he does not know about and he knows that the Jedi were totally right in suspecting Palpatine.
And really no need for Palpatine to admit that he does not actually have what he spoke about just before.
Just string Anakin along until it is far too late for him to turn back.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

One thing about the Jedi talking about having to take control of the Republic for a small amount of time... Mace says this when the identity of the Sith Lord is unknown. At that point in time, the Jedi still think that Palpatine is a separate issue and that just removing him might not fix everything because the senate is still under Sith influence.

Once the Jedi realize that Palpatine is the Sith, there's no reason to assume that Mace would still feel it necessary for the Jedi to take control.

 

During Anakin's rant about killing the sand people Padme should have been like:

 

Considering that the Tuskens had tortured Shmi Lars for a month, which led to her murder; why on earth would you expect Padme to react that way? Especially since she knew Shmi. I'm not saying that her reaction was right. It wasn't. But why do you people continue to demand that Padme should have behaved like the perfect character? The ideal woman? What if that had been one of her parents or sisters that had been tortured to death? Do you really expect Padme to react in an ideal manner? I don't. Why? Because she was never perfect. Nor do I believe Lucas had intended for her to be some perfect or ideal woman character.

It's really frustrating to realize how so many people demand that certain characters, especially women and non-white characters, fit or be shoved into some one-dimensional character trope. This is why I find it difficult to accept such criticism that Padme "should have done this or that".

 

Um, are you ok?

 

No. I'm not. Because I find this attitude toward Padme frustrating after nearly twenty years. Are you now demanding that I behave ideally?

And yet, the PT managed to connect with a lot of people anyway.

 

WTF! You can behave however you like..... I just think you might be taking a fictional character from a movie about space wizards a little bit too seriously. I don't even know where you are getting this weird idea that I somehow want her to be "1 dimensional" or "ideal". You basically implied I was some kind of misogynist or racist because I made a joke about how Padme should have been like "Whoah Anakin, this is actually super creepy and you are freaking me out". I mean isn't that one of the oldest tropes there is? The woman who can't control her feelings for a guy who's clearly bad news..... we've only seen that like a million times before.

 

What is even more frustrating is your continued use of strawmen.
People suggesting that Padme show some sort of a reaction isn't about having her be "perfect" or "flawless". It is about her being human. It is about being consistent with how her character has been presented. Had she been presented as some "human-centric" fanatic that thinks all non-humans are scum and deserve to die. Then sure, Anakin killing a bunch of non-humans is no big deal.
But if she has been presented as someone that does value other people, not just humans, then some sort of a reaction would fit her character.

Most people would react if their significant other told them they had just killed a bunch of children.
That is human.
A reaction in the moment is something that isn't planned or prepared. It is just a gut reaction. Then other thoughts can enter into it. Understanding, sympathy and so on.

I have seen a lot of films/TV where on character tells someone else that they have done something that sounds bad. The other is surprised, shocked but then the first character explains what has happened in more detail and they are more understanding.

So Padme can show some initial shock and surprise and then be comforting, a bit understanding and also suggest that Anakin maybe talk to Obi-Wan. The scene is loaded with dramatic potential but Padme's non-reaction saps some of the punch from it. At least to me.
Hayden does a good job in this scene but Natalie is given little to work with.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Dropped these again.

 

Oh this silly thread

 

In other words, she wasn't behaving ideally? Or did you have a similar complaint when Lucas failed to convey Leia's reaction to the destruction of Alderaan?