Saga Anakin Skywalker - Character Discussion...among other things.

Ironically, Ashoka, who chose to turn her back on the Jedi and stop referring to herself as a such, stayed true to the Order's ideals and ideology far better then Anakin ultimately did and proved herself to be far better Jedi then him.

 

Great point. Sometimes we have to step outside the parameters of the institution to actually live the ideals.

 

Eh, the Cato Neimoidia dress wasn't really all that much more low-cut then her dinner dress from the other episode with him (actually, I think it was less revealing), and this is the same person who wears black leather corsets gowns to dinner with guys she hasn't seen since she was ten, goes into battle in white catsuits and has casual travel gowns that bear her midriff.

Padme wears some pretty concealing stuff (especially when she's at work), but she's not really all that conservative a dresser when it comes to casual situations.

Neither do I.

All I'm saying is that her reaction to that is far more in-character to me then her reaction to the massacre of the Tuskens; actually looking at them in comparison it's jarring - she'll consider divorce if he beats up a dude, but marries him if he slaughters children?

 

Perhaps Anakin did use the Jedi Mind Trick on Padme after all, to persuade her to wear more revealing clothing. JK

I of course cannot complain. XD

 

And that's why I believe she had failed when she refused to train Grogu. I thought it was a mistake on her part to cling to Jedi ideology, when it had failed the Order itself.

 

when had the Jedi principle of non attachment failed the order?

Dave Filoni isn’t going to change George Lucas’ message

 

Well to be fair she was apart from the Order, no longer a Jedi, and Din was looking for a Jedi to train Grogu. She was showing great integrity to not try and train The Child, that and she was going after Thrawn. Not exactly a safe quest to train a Padawan on.

 

She didn't want to train Grogu because she's got some hardcore PSTD; when she's talking about "I've seen what these feelings (fear and anger) can do to a fully-trained Jedi Knight" she's not just talking about Anakin falling, she's talking about Anakin falling and doing things like this...






...and helping make this...

...happen (and not to mention she also lost the person who appeared to have been her best - if not a very close - friend to the Dark Side as well as Anakin)

Was she making a mistake? Probably; but after all she's been through I can't really say I blame her for feeling the way she does - I wouldn't want to take an apprentice either at that point.

 

Well, the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin is pretty dysfunctional. Obi-Wan sort of seems to see Anakin as a fairly annoying younger brother whose messes he always has to clean up, and Anakin seems to see Obi-Wan as an overly critical father figure who doesn’t give him enough affection, praise or respect. (Tragically, he actually gets the love and affection he craves from Sidious.)

Well, you see, the clinical explanation for that is a condition known as “bad writing”.

 

Well, you can say that for a lot of brothers; I'd still call their healthy, even if it's disfunction - it's not like their Stannis and Renly Baratheon or the Miser Brothers or anything like that

In fact, I've always felt that had Obi-Wan been present on Coruscant Anakin never would have fallen (in fact, I'm pretty sure Palpatine deliberately set things up so that Kenobi would get sent away; he may very well have arranged the leak that tipped the Republic off to Utapau, and he had to have known Obi-Wan was the most likely person for the Jedi to send out after Grievous).

I sometimes wonder if it even ever crossed Luke's mind that he had written them with some romantic undertones in the first two films when he decided to make them siblings...

 

The Luke-Leia-Han love triangle is acknowledged in Return of the Jedi, with Han thinking Leia is in love with Luke.

and Luke’s strong feelings for Leia are what goad him into attacking Vader, those are his feelings from before he knew she was his sister.

 

Did he? Was the treatment of Ahsoka connected to that?

I think the jedi's perception on that didn't lead them to their destruction, as shown in the movies, and I think the shows. I think moreso them not holding to what's right did: Arrogance, becoming political puppets, becoming tools of a war.

I don't think it really changed it much at all that I've seen. Aside from showing be more cool and such, I haven't seen a lot that's changed about his arc.

 

I disagree with the premise that jedi led Anakin to his actions.

 

The difference here is that Obi-Wan also had to raise Anakin. Obi-Wan never saw Anakin as a son; he saw Anakin as a younger brother.

I’m not implying that Obi-Wan is a bad person. He clearly isn’t. And I do think he genuinely tried his best. And he obviously cares very deeply for Anakin. (He wouldn’t have been so heartbroken by Anakin’s fall if he didn’t care.) But I think he was probably a bit too young and inexperienced to handle Anakin. I genuinely think Qui-Gon probably would’ve been more attendant to Anakin’s needs, and probably would’ve had the wisdom and maturity to handle Anakin. Instead, Sidious was left to fill that void, and we know how that went.

I don’t know. Personally, I never liked the sister twist. It just comes outta nowhere, has no satisfying payoff, and just feels kinda cheap.

Not deliberately. I think they genuinely want what’s best for him. Just a combination of dogma and obliviousness (and inexperience and impatience on Obi-Wan’s part).

 

I've thought, for a time, that Anakin wanted a dad figure, but that's not what Obi-Wan was, he was a brother moreso, for him. And that Palpatine kinda slipped into that role, for Anakin.

I don't think the jedi's perception, like that, led to Anakin's issues.

 

Yeah, but my point is more that did it ever cross his mind how weird it was to take a love triangle were the girl has already French-kissed the guy and decided to have them randomly become siblings?

It's just a bizarre choice to make given what had already been established, IMO.

He finds out about Leia being his sister from Obi-Wan (well, technically, he guesses) well before he fights Vader, though; heck, Vader gets the information on his relation to Luke from Luke's own mind.

It expands the arc by showing more of it.

But you misunderstand; TCW didn't make me like the arc because it changed it, it made me like the arc because when I only had the films to go off of I never sympathized with Anakin.

Eh. Maybe.

But personally I've always felt people put two much stock in Jinn being able to succeed where Obi-Wan failed (if we even want to say Obi-Wan "failed", which IMO is a stretch in and off itself since Anakin's actual fall really had nothing to do with Obi-Wan); Qui-Gon was more then willing to criticize Obi-Wan when it was necessary, and most of Obi-Wan's methods from training would have naturally come from observing how he acted as an instructor; not to mention there's still Palpatine, and Jinn was just as fooled by him (as far we know) as everyone else.

Besides, if Qui-Gon did prove to much of a good influence on Anakin, one would think Palpatine would just arrange his death by creating a crisis specifically designed to kill him and drive Anakin closer to the Dark Side, no?

Honestly, in the long run they *might* have been better served by just dropping Brackett's idea of another Skywalker completely. It's fairly superfluous and Leia being Luke's sister doesn't really add anything so late in the narrative.

 

yes, but his especially strong feelings for her are because he cared about her deeply before learning that, and also the fact that she’s his sister.

It’s definitely odd to retcon two characters who kissed as siblings. I think the only reason it was that way is to explain “there is another” (which Lucas might have already thought would be Luke’s sibling before Return of the Jedi was written) without introducing a new character,

 

It's been a while so I could be totally off here, but I'm pretty sure the sister in ROTJ was originally written as a separate character; IIRC she even had a name and everything.

I'm defiantly pretty certain Brackett intended Leia and the sister to be different people though, since her draft also originated the idea of the love triangle.

 

Yes the sister was called Neelith in the first Brackett draft. Later revisions of that draft removed the name but kept the character. She was trained as a Jedi by another Master on a different planet.
That set up makes some sense. The children of Anakin are split up and both are trained separate from each other. If one is captured, he or she can not give much information about the other. And both hopes are being trained.
One of the issues arising with Leia being made into the sister is why the Jedi never thought to train her as well. Luke could have been told to bring Leia with him to Dagobah and both could have been trained.

Even in ANH Leia is not a twin sister as I think the script gives different ages for Luke and Leia. Plus the fact that Luke is crushing on her and so a romance is being set up. Which ESB does continue with. There were other scenes filmed but later cut where Luke and Leia talked about how they felt for each other and all that.

As for the Jedi being responsible for Anakin. They did not cause his problems or made him do what he did. Those are his choices and he is responsible for them. I do think the Jedi did not always help the situation and their rigid and dogmatic outlook may have contributed to things going bad.
Anakin does not exist in a vacuum, outside factors affect him.

Ex, Shmi remaning as a slave. That bothered Anakin and the Jedi could see that but they saw no need to do anything about it. Anakin should just let go of his attachments and let his mother rot as a slave.
As for Qui-Gon, would he have done something about Shmi, assuming he had lived?
I think so, he did make the attempt in TPM and he seemed to genuinely care for her and he did know her, unlike Obi-Wan. So IF Qui-Gon did act to free Shmi from slavery and let Anakin know about it. That, I think; would have had an impact on Anakin. He would worry less, he would know that his mother is free and his promise to free her has been fullfilled. Had Shmi, after beign freed, left Tatooine and the whole Sand People thing had never happened. Then that too would have impacted Anakin majorly. He would not have his dreams. he would not fail to save her and he would not have gone kill-crazy and mass murdered a whole camp of men, women and children.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

@anakinfansince1983 It's not explicitly stated by Queen Shadow (IIRC), but I'm sure Padme keyed the Jedi into what they were doing; in fact, she might even have sent a message to Anakin himself (ATOC makes it clear they haven't physically seen each other in years, but that doesn't preclude the possibly they were periodically in contact via space email or were friends on Spacebook or something) - there's zero reason to think she wouldn't want them/him to know she tried to retrieve Shmi but could'nt find her.

Yes, thank you; I knew it started with an "N".

Interestingly, if they kept the setup that she was off being trained somewhere you could have an interesting setup in ROTJ were the two siblings have to team up to defeat Palpatine and Vader (if you dropped the "Anakin's ghost trained Luke" thing from Brackett's draft and kept the father twist, you could even have them have to work together to redeem their father). And there's a bit of protentional for conflict their to make things interesting if we assume that Neelith has a leg up on her training over Luke and have one of the siblings initially uninterested in redeeming Vader.

I don't see what the could have done; Padme was only able to try and find/free Shmi after she became a private citizen again, and the Jedi are basically a church that is subservient to a government; Hutt Space is a sovereign power and Watto is a citizen of said state whom the Republic has no authority over, so there's not much they can do to compel the emancipation and extraction of Shmi if he didn't want to free her (which he didn't) - even Qui-Gon was forced to concede to that point.

 

It's nice we got some supplementary material to justify Anakin's stalking.

 

New headcanon; Anakin thought he added Padme on Spacebook and they spent years flirting back and forth, but the whole time it was actually Sabe