I think a turning vignette would be great. I have no ideas, but I look forward to reading other's responses!

 

I know what you mean - where to start? or end for that matter?

I've got all these rampant plot bunnies about Anakin's alter ego or afterlife stuff running through my head now (partly thanks to you!).

 

New challenge up, everyone! Check the first topic!

 

Oooh. Intriguing. I'm already trying to put something together for the Padme challenge, but I'd love to take a crack at something for my favorite guy as well.

 

I posted something for the "Turning" challenge. It is awful, but I had to write it. You know what I mean?

 

I've seen the trailer and I'm all geared up for the "Turning" challenge, only the -ing rabbit is growing bigger every time I look at it.

. . . RotS AU, here I come.

 

I'm supposed to be working on my eng211 essay but this thought came to me. Is Anakin a "literary device"? Lucas needs to show the balance between light and dark, and Anakin does this. Aside from Luke and Leia, is he necessary?

~aeryn

 

Poor Anakin! Less than 100 days until ROTS, and no one seems to love him.

Well, I'm upping this because last night, I was staring - I mean, studying - the very nice promo picture of ROTS Anakin that I have as my desktop. He's dressed in his darker ROTS colors, hair waving about, lightsaber ignited, and a really fierce look on his face.

Of course, instead of thinking, "Future Darth Vader!" I thought, "Wow, he looks heroic."

And then earlier, while watching ESB and ROTJ, my dad said that the reason there was a white guy underneath the Vader armor is because the black community at the time complained, the issue being how a "black" figure was being toted as the consumate evil guy, etc. So in putting David Prowse in the armor, it was technically a white guy who was the bad guy.

Yet, maybe this is just me, but when we think of heroes nowadays, they're always wearing black or really dark colors. Because the dark colors are cool. They're slimming. They're fashionable. At least, I'm much more likely to respond to a handsome hero wearing black, than I am some handsome hero wearing yellow. Though I'd give him props for being brave enough to wear yellow. (Wolverine!)

Has anyone else had that feeling, when looking at Anakin or thinking about his character? I mean, I kinda see "good kid slowly going bad," but I think I'm now mostly seeing "dashing warrior."

 

Here is my feeble attempt to support Jade's effort to show poor, neglected Anakin a little love.

Dashing warrior, you say? I'll add conflicted, angsty, and dashing warrior. As a matter of fact, one of my friends, who hates the PT thus far, just phoned to say that she saw a promo poster of ROTS and thought Anakin looked really cool.

Of course, Jedi get to wear the really cool boots to begin with; and because Anakin is a special case, he gets to wear all the nifty dark colors as well.

 

Heh, opal. My story's kind of like that... After being utterly disappointed and annoyed with AOTC (I used to abhore the A/P ship like nothing else, but fear not, in the last month, I have changed my ways and seen the light), my Star Wars fanaticism went right down the drain. I didn't have anything to do with the fandom/movies for almost three years- until in Feb I saw a magazine cover here in Germany with Anakin on the cover. And I luckily refrained from doing anything embarrassing, because I was at the library. But that one pic- I'm sure you all know it- it's the one with the white apce-shgip background and Anakin's wearing his dark Jedi robes, with the hood down- got me so excited again for ROTS. He looked great in that pic and all the other ones I've seen.

To me, he always has this conflicted look in his eyes. You can see that he's wavering between two choices and unfortunately we all know the outcome. But it's jsut this...look in his eyes and his expression. Some pics do it more than others, but in pretty much every pic I look at, I see it...

As for looking like a 'dashing warrior'? He is a dashing warrior. He's a hero of the Clone Wars. He has that nickname that I can't remember at the moment, but I think it's something like 'Hero without Fear'. He's supposed to look like a dashing warrior. And he does. Quite well, in fact.

Is Anakin a "literary device"? Lucas needs to show the balance between light and dark, and Anakin does this. Aside from Luke and Leia, is he necessary?

Whoa... I never thought of it that way. But now I think of it, I'm not sure. Essentially he's needed for Luke and Leia. But otherwise... I'll definitely have to think about that. I'd say that Anakin is the balance between Dark and Light, in that he's the Chosen One. And I think that it is necessary. But to have a character portray that balance or just a word or something else...

I think that when it's a character, it's easier to comprehend/see. By using Anakin, Lukas has not only created this balance that he needs to manifest, but also allows us to understand it more. The Force needs to be balanced. Well, that's all well and good, but we need to know how and why. And the only way, IMO is to use a character that knows/has known both sides. Anakin begins as an innocent child, so to speak, 'untainted' by the Force or any particular side. He uses the Force, but he doesn't really realize it. That would be the balance. There is no Lightside or Darkside to him yet.

Then, as he begins his training, he is subjected to the Lightside of the Force. This tips the balance, so to speak, to the Lightside. But without Anakin, how else would this 'tip' to the Lightside be shown? It is essentially Anakin who is doing the tipping. Without Anakin, there would be no tipping and the Force would be like it had always been.

Then Anakin slowly, as he grows, is exposed to more 'human' emotions and feelings- or he never let's go of the ones he has. This is tipping the force back to the middle, IMO. I know that murdering the sand people in AOTC was terrible, but I think that it was needed. Otherwise the Force would have been almost too good. If that makes any sense. Which it probably doesn't.

Anyway, by the time ROTS comes around, Anakin is still in the middle, but leaning towards the Darkside, IMO. And then he is seduced and he tips the Force to the darkside.

I don't know any other way to show the way the Force would tip without Anakin. As a character, because it is as a character that his conscious/ unconscious decisions tip the balance.

*sigh* I don't think this made a lot of sense... I think I just managed to confuse myself. I'll come back tomorrow after I've gotten some sleep and try to write coherently what I mean...

 

[blockquote][link=http://boards.theforce.net/user.asp?usr=AERYN_SUN]AERYN_SUN[/link] posted on 11/13/04/05 11:57am

---

~aeryn
[hr][/blockquote]

That's a good question, Aeryn. I guess he could be considered a "literary device", but that could be said for a lot of main characters, especially villians. I think he's probably more necessary than Palpatine. I think he's the character that's needed to show more dimension, if I'm making sense. Han could do that, but he's not quite as deep as Vader/Anakin. IMO, when George decided to make the saga about Anakin, he realized this. Anakin has more "Main character" qualities than say, Luke, Leia or Obi-Wan. Han is a little more colorful, but doesn't carry the baggage that would make his story have such a wide arc. Obi-Wan and Luke and even Leia are very clearly the heroes, but they don't have as many sides to them.



JadeSolo, I agree. Anakin deserves a lot of love. [face_hugs][face_kiss]

I am getting so excited for this movie.

I can't really explain why I LOVE THIS CHARACTER, but I do. It's probably the same reason others do. He's conflicted, impatient, angsty - but deep down he started with a heart of gold. When he loves, he loves completely and fiercely. Palpatine misjudge that aspect of his apprentice. When Luke came into his life, he awakened feelings in Darth Vader (anakin)akin to the way he felt for his mother and Padme. I think he feels the same about Obi-wan and we will see it in this movie. When Anakin loves, it is with everything he has.

These pictures coming out are awesome. I'm glad they are getting others excited too. From the things I've seen and heard, Hayden is going to add the last piece of the puzzle of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader in wonderfully.

Sorry for the VERY late response. And THANKS [face_hugs] to each of you for keeping this going, I've been a horrible thread mommy. I think there will be plenty to discuss in here in the next coming months, that's for sure.

One more edit: [face_tongue] Who else can see Hayden's Anakin under the Vader helmet now when you watch the OT? Especially ROTJ?

We need some challenges, folks! [face_batting] Ideas, anyone?>

 

One more edit: Who else can see Hayden's Anakin under the Vader helmet now when you watch the OT? Especially ROTJ?



*groans* Me. Actually, I can only see his Vader under the suit now. And I have a hard time thinking of him as Vader in the suit. Whenever I think of him as Vader, I have to remind myself that he is in that suit, because I've gotten so used to seeing him without it...

 

Excellent points, Alethia.


Who else can see Hayden's Anakin under the Vader helmet now when you watch the OT? Especially ROTJ?

*Gina raises her hand* Me, too! But it's not just in the physical sense of seeing Hayden's Anakin under the helmet. That's the thing about the prequels (a good thing). When I saw the OT in the theaters as a child, Darth Vader was just...Darth Vader - evil villain (at least until the end of RoTJ). But now, seeing his story developed through the PT, I can never look at Darth Vader as just "the villain" anymore. His backstory, emotions and circumstances make him into a multi-dimensional tragic character who chose the wrong path at a terrible cost, and it is almost impossible to see anyone other than Anakin underneath that suit. *sniff*

I have no idea if that made any sense. LOL


He's conflicted, impatient, angsty - but deep down he started with a heart of gold. When he loves, he loves completely and fiercely.

Well put, rhonderoo.

 

When Anakin loves, it is with everything he has.

I agree! I also agree with Alethia, because I've always thought that in order for Anakin to bring balance to the Force, he had to become that very balance. He had to know both the light and the dark, and he succeeded. I think the same thing happened with Luke as well.

I don't see Anakin as a literary device because SW is supposed to be the Skywalker saga, and he's a Skywalker. He doesn't bring balance all by himself - he's got Luke to remind him of what he's supposed to do, but he certainly does it. And Luke kind of takes over that responsibility after he dies, I've always thought.

I also think that part of Anakin's frustrations with Obi-Wan et al stems from the fact that he has no idea what he's really supposed to be doing as the Chosen One. And I don't think anyone else really knows, either. Boy, that must've sucked when they found out what it all meant.

 

Is Anakin a "literary device"? Lucas needs to show the balance between light and dark, and Anakin does this. Aside from Luke and Leia, is he necessary?

Yeah, I think Anakin is a literary device. I believe that under circumstances, a bad person can do the right thing. But it also shows that people that are perceived as evil are still human. Anakin did some very human things like getting angry and falling in love.

Problem is that Anakin took everything to extremes. Anakin wanted to be the most powerful of all Jedi, but he couldn't give up all that he had come to value. In Jedi Trial, he found someone that could understand his relationship in one Neeja Halcyon. The EU does tie up this loose end for the movies because Halcyon was killed in a later battle during the Clone Wars. The only person that Anakin has left that will understand him is Palpatine.

Anakin's fall can be best described by the fact that he wanted the best of both worlds. He wanted to be a great Jedi, but also be the best husband. As a result, he had to live the lie that his wife warned him about, but he was okay with it because he felt as the Chosen One, he had the power to handle anything.

But Anakin valued his attachments more than he realized. I have to pull the real world saying: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I don't believe Anakin's attachments lead to his ultimate downfall, but it was ultimately his greed. He told Padme that he wanted the ability to keep people from dying. As a line, it's incredibly noble, but Anakin wanted to keep those close to him from dying for his own selfish reasons.

 

*looks at pictures*

*falls over*



Am I even understanding the definition of "literary device?" Probably not. Oh well.

It's hard to say. I think he was, in a way, destined to fall, and to be consumed by a darker side to the Force. But that means he wouldn't be responsible for the terrible things he did. Maybe it's that he was supposed to fall, but the path he took back to redemption was a choice he had to make, and he wasn't strong enough to make that leap back until Luke came along. Or something.

It seems like even if there is no Light or Dark side, only the intention with which you use the Force, there still needs to be some kind of balance, but thinking about that makes me confused.

edit: Challenge idea - the joke in AOTC was supposed to be how Jedi keep losing their lightsabers. Anakin seems to get lectured a lot about that ("Not again!"). Maybe a challenge where he loses/finds his lightsaber?

 

It seems like even if there is no Light or Dark side, only the intention with which you use the Force, there still needs to be some kind of balance, but thinking about that makes me confused.

This is because the balance is never properly explained. I believe that the balance of the Force is that the Jedi just needed to learn how to find the appropriate middle ground. Luke was the last man standing after it was all said and done and he had found balance within himself.

It's like believing that the war between good and evil occurs in individuals rather than in epic battles.

 

Did you all see the promo spot for the new trailer?

Here's the link [link=http://www.starwars.com/episode-iii/release/trailer/theocspot.html] promo[/link]

As for a plot device, doesn't that seem redundant? Anakin is the center of the story for the PT and is pretty well in all of the OT. He is the plot....

Balance. I did always wonder about that. I could never figure out why the Jedi would want balance since they were in the limelight and any balance would only bring darkness.

 

Gah! I had a long post all typed out and hit the wrong key!

That trailer promo was awesome, dianethx! I can't wait for this movie!!!




I think the whole balance and prophecy thing is ambiguous on purpose, at least until ROTS. Was it Anakin's destiny to go to the darkside? Or was his destiny circumvented for a time by the dark side? Destiny is a chicken before the egg type concept anyway, and Anakin's example fits better than anything I've ever come across. (Bravo, George!) We know that he was the Chosen One, and Qui-Gon's connection to the living force proved right. Do you think he was supposed to be taken from Tatooine? I go back and forth on that one, depending on which side of the Destiny fence I fall on... Every thing happens for a reason, but we all have free will. I have a feeling that is one of those things we will be debating as a fandom for years to come.

I think balance is supposed to refer to the eradication of the Sith, but a case could be made for numerical balance also. After all there were 2 Jedi and 2 Sith left at the end of this whole thing. A new concept that has come up in one of the more cerebral 3SA threads (no spoilers) is that Anakin is actually "balance" in a yin and yang kind of way.

[image=http://lucky.to/holdgraphics/yinyang-anakin-vader.gif]

Hudnall over there says this about free will and destiny and the events of ROTJ: This is not to imply that Anakin must have gone to the Dark Side. The ROTJ novelization is very clear that Luke indeed comes to this understanding or "enlightenment" without going to the Dark Side. And very fitting for Luke, because such enlightenment was what made him capable for seeing that his father was just his father - ONE person, not two people. And as such, Anakin himself realizes the same - he realizes his is the "Chosen One" - and his allegiance to either Dark or Light is only a self-inflicted illusion and that enables him to fulfill his destiny.

Great idea on the challenge, Jade!! Anyone else? I think there was one suggested in the challenge thread in Saga, also.

Speaking of father and son, some inspiration:


[image=http://www.rhonderoo.com/anakinlukesabers1ze1qb.jpg]


Or if you prefer...

[image=http://www.rhonderoo.com/skywalkers8ji.jpg]

 

*THUD!*



I try not to think too hard about the destiny vs. free will thing, because I keep changing my mind about it. Guess I'll just have to wait until ROTS to make a decision!

edit: Just saw the promo. Can't believe I missed the trailer last night.

 

He told Padme that he wanted the ability to keep people from dying.

I'm glad you mentioned that, because I always thought it a bit ironic that both Anakin and the Jedi sort of want to stop nature in a way. The Jedi discourage love and attachments, and Anakins wishes he could stop death.

And we know that by ANH that both Anakin and the Jedi are nearly non-existent, mere shadows of what they once were. I always thought that this was the Force's way of smacking everyone in the head until they got it right.

*******

The most interesting thing about Anakin as a chacter is that there is very little that could be considered completely out of character for him. He's that complex and conflicted.

He's arrogant but insecure at his center. He's intelligent, but sometimes very foolish and naive. We know that he loves very with all his heart, but when he hates...look out. About the only thing I can't picture Anakin as being is indifferent.

***

And I'll also add that I love that angry but conflicted look in the eyes that Hayden has in some of the teaser shots. It's perfect.

 

I try not to think too hard about the destiny vs. free will thing, because I keep changing my mind about it

True...the entire destiny vs free-will thing is a discussion that has gone on for ages- and not just in relation to Star Wars. I remember once a very interesting religion class in my school, where we started talking about destiny and free will and everything. I don't quite remember the outcome, but in any case, I think there was a general consensus that everyone should decide for themselves, because the topic is so huge and has so many meanings.

And the yin-yang idea is very interesting as well. In a way I see that. I think the mistake that most of the Jedi made about Anakin was seeing him as this 'chosen One', not as an actual person. To them he was considered more of an object than an actual person, IMO. They really weren't sure what to make of this extremely powerful kid who knows nothing about the Jedi Code and even when he does, has no real intention of following it... I think that Anakin sums it all up himself in TPM when he says that he's a person. Anakin has been treated from childhood on as an object and now after his 'freedom', he's stuck with the Jedi, who theoretically mean well but really have no clue what to do with this all powerful prophesized Chosen One. And so he feels alienated and searches out vices that make him feel 'human'- like love, for instance. And anger and all these human emotions that the Jedi don't really understand, because from childhood on, they're raised to do without them. So basically Anakin's kind of 'forced' to find his own boundaries, because since he's the only one at the temple like him. And because he's forced to find his own boundaries, he's basically prime to be led into the 'traps' of humanity.

Someone mentioned Neeja Halcyon. I just finished Jedi Trial myself and I was really glad that there was a more 'human' Jedi introduced. That's really what Anakin needs. Obi-Wan tries hard, but he himself was raised in the Temple and there's not much he can do about it. He sort of flounders after Anakin, meaning well, but essentially not doing anything. Anakin needs to learn his boundaries, but not by being told that there's a Code and that's the only reason.

In AOTC, when Anakin is meditating after his nightmare and Padme comes on to the balcony, Anakin replies that 'Jedi don't have nightmares'. I think that really explains the situation. Anakin wants to be the ideal Jedi, which is understandable, because that's what's expected of him. But it truly is impossible for him to reach. Or- that is, it's impossible to reach the Council's version of the ideal Jedi. I really have nothing against the Jedi and I certainly don't want them all slaughtered, but in one way, I think it was a good decision. They really were outdated and needed a new start. Perhaps if Anakin hadn't gone to the Dark Side and instead talked it out with the Council or something, maybe they also would have seen the 'light'. But in Anakin murdering them all, it also got rid of their fairly outdated ideals. The Jedi want to bring balance into the Force, but they can't. Well, then they ask themselves, why not? They assume that it is the Sith, and perhaps to some extent it is. But it is also that in following their Code and the absence of any kind of 'human' emotions/feelings, they're not very balanced themselves either.

Anakin is the only one of them that sees that and truly is balanced. But the Jedi don't understand that and try to force that 'balance' out of him. And this, IMO, is what basically leads to Anakin's fall. He's being forced to do something that is not right for him. As the only Jedi that is truly balanced, the Jedi should be following his example (to an extent). But in pushing him to hard, Anakin is going to rebel. It's like a scale- in the middle is Anakin, all balanced. And then the Jedi come and try to push him to their side, but in doing that, they're really just pushing him in the opposite direction, towards the Dark.

 

After seeing the first two episodes (I waited until eps II was on DVD before I saw either one of them!), I wondered if knighthood was all a Jedi did. The JA books introduced the concept of Jedi becoming farmers when they were unable to pass the muster of becoming a peaceful warrior (and that's what Jedi Knights are--a contradiction in and of itself), and of course we know there are Jedi healers. But are those the only choices for a Jedi to become?

I always thought the Jedi needed troubadours. Our own 12th Century mistrals awakened us to the concept of romantic love. Prior to this, love was to the divine or to the community, but not to one's mate. The love felt between two lovers were that of lust, not a personal love between the heart and the eyes. This is what the Jedi are lacking: a personal love that transcends the social needs, that empowers the individual to have charge of his own destiny.

Luke, the progeny of the personal love between Padme and Anakin, becomes the fulcrum upon which balance is restored.

Here's some other lovely "father and son" photos:

[image=http://web.cableone.net/agentj/images/starwars/promo15.jpg] [image=http://web.cableone.net/agentj/images/starwars/promo30.jpg]

Now as for a new challenge. There's this great enigmatic lyric from an artist I discovered recently (Sarah Fimm). Take this phrase and make a vignette out of it: "Only darkness in the things we love." Let's see if that tickles some plot bunnies!