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PT Anakin/Vader's motivation at the end of ROTS

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by FightoftheForgotten, Oct 26, 2020.

  1. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 19, 2020
    Anakin joins with Sidious to save Padme. Anakin is told that he must do evil things in order to garner enough power to use the dark side to save her. So why, once she is dead, does Anakin/Vader still support an Empire doing evil things?
     
  2. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    Because it’s too late for him. The Republic is gone, the Jedi all but destroyed — and no way would they accept him back into their fold after all the **** he pulled.

    All he had left was his own misery. That was the point noted in the novelization of the movie. In his quest to be free from the restraints of the Jedi, he found himself enslaved not only to the machines built into him to keep him alive, but to Sidious. At that point, he knew Sidious was lying. He knew Sidious was the real villain but it was far too late. He couldn’t even defeat the man in a duel if he had wanted.

    I don’t think we can overstate just how thoroughly screwed Vader was.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
  3. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 10, 2005
    Agreed. He had burned all bridges and there was no going back. The dark side was all he had. The only thing he could ever hope to achieve, from his point of view, was eventually getting revenge on his new master and taking over the Empire.
    It was a hollow ambition, as it wouldn't give him back what he had lost, but his hatred for Sidious was strong enough to make it his life's purpose.

    That's my take on it.
     
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  4. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    In my opinion, I see it as Vader maintains his goal that he pitched, though not in this way, to Padme, and then Obi-Wan, in bringing peace, freedom and security and such (I think he makes a similar pitch to Luke as well) (maybe it's the only way he can justify all that he's done, in his mind), and he wants to kill Palpatine and take over himself, but he can't in his condition, so he waits, acting under him until he has the opportunity.
     
  5. Guidman

    Guidman PT Manager and Book/Trivia Host star 5 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 29, 2016
    You think that suit that is saving his life comes cheap. Gotta pay it off somehow...;)
     
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  6. Narancia

    Narancia Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Oct 24, 2020
    Yeah lol, Vader was basically walking dead until the classic trilogy. Meeting Luke gave him purpose and ambition again.
     
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  7. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 19, 2020
    I guess I always assumed that Palpatine was going to sell Anakin on the idea of an Empire by saying that the Empire would be the only way to keep Padme safe. I figured Palpatine would tell Anakin that they have to take control of the galaxy so that the chaos of the Clone Wars never affects anyone again.

    Instead, Palpatine creates an Empire while Anakin is busy doing other things. Anakin falling to the dark side and the creation of the Empire seem like two separate ideas. So Anakin suddenly being pro-Empire by films end seems hollow to me.
     
  8. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 30, 2017
    Imho, he wanted revenge on Palpatine/Sidious, he hated him for what he did and was waiting for the right opportunity. The Rule of Two promises a certain kind of poetic justice for the arrogant master. When he asks Luke to be his apprentice on Bespin, it's entirely sincere imo.

    He doesn't care about the rest of the galaxy anymore, just getting strong enough to beat Sidous.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
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  9. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 19, 2020
    Then why is he suddenly screaming about his new Empire to Obi-Wan at the end of ROTS? It's like he has no knowledge of the Empire's creation (Anakin has been away from Coruscant the entire time) and now he knows of and is fully supported of an Empire. And even all the way to TESB, he is still pro-Empire to Luke. He doesn't just want Luke to help him kill Sidious, he wants Luke to help him run the Empire.

    But he doesn't care about it? That doesn't jive well with me. There was never that moment when we realize that Anakin has given into fascism. Anakin just decides to do dark side stuff in an effort to save Padme, then once she dies, he just keeps being pro-Empire because???
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
  10. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    There is no such thing as pro-Empire for the Sith. Empire is everything as it means unlimited power. is the power that only matters to them and they will achieve it through the Empire. The reason why Anakin is claiming his new Empire in RoTS is because he sees himself as (future) Emperor: the one who rules ( as emperor means in Latin). This is the dark side venom i I can say so. But in the end of the movie everything changed: he lost everything that was important to him. What was his motivation then: rage, anger and pure hate. Obviously to himself as he couldn't do what he hoped yet he paid it full. Of course is hollow motivation but is the only one that he had at this moment (even Obi Wan explained to Luke in ROTJ something similar for Vader motivation to live). Of course the fact that Luke exists changes everything.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
  11. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 19, 2020
    To me, the ideas never marry up. I buy that Anakin wants unlimited power to save the ones he cares about. And I understand that Palpatine wants an Empire so that he may rule over the entire galaxy.

    And I would totally accept that Anakin buys into the idea of the Empire so that he can control everyone and thus keep his loved ones safe... but that link is never made in the actual film. Like I said, Palpatine never even presents the idea of a Galactic Empire to Anakin. All of the Republic-to-Empire maneuvering happens outside Anakin's knowledge, but then Anakin is all pro-Empire by the films end.

    I can accept that Anakin/Vader stays at the Emperor's side after Padme dies because he still believes in the idea of controlling everyone. I can wrap my head around Anakin/Vader wanting an Empire around to prevent another uprising and yet another war. It even lends information about Vader's motivations in the OT about why he hates the Rebellion (sees them as another Separatist movement) and why Anakin/Vader wants Luke to join him, help lead the Empire (the Empire that is keeping everyone safe), and end the destructive conflict.

    But in the actual movie, all we get is what you just said... "hollow motivation".
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
  12. EMPEROR_WINDU

    EMPEROR_WINDU Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Nov 23, 2002
    In the novel, Stover does a pretty good job of merging Anakin's ambition for more power separate from his desire to save Padme's life. There's also the fact that Anakin believes he killed Padme and hates himself for it. Not much chance of coming back from the Dark Side with that level of self-loathing.
     
  13. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 19, 2020
    The novel is a masterwork. The film is where I have all my issues.
     
  14. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    To me, I see it as already there. I think his ambition and desire to save Padme is all about his hunger for power. Feeling powerless, he grasps for more power to control what he has no right to. I think it's driven by ego. I think this isn't something I really began to understand as much, until after I got saved and became a Christian.
     
  15. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 19, 2020
    Then where is that scene? The, "We'll turn this Republic into an Empire to keep your wife and unborn child safe" scene? Where is the correlation between what Anakin wants and what the Empire can give?
     
  16. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    I don't think that's the reason. I think protecting Padme and ruling the Empire as being wrapped up in Anakin's character motivation: Power hunger. To me, him losing Padme makes him feel powerless, the way he felt powerless with the loss of his mom, and he hates feeling powerless, and seeks power to avoid that and it may start with protecting Padme, but it grows the more power he thinks is within his reach. I think there's motives of pain and such in there, but, to me, powerlessness is his main motive.
     
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  17. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

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    May 18, 2017
    I think once Vader lost Padme all that fear turned to rage. Like the Joker, he wanted to watch the world (universe) burn.
     
  18. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 19, 2020
    I guess I look at it this way, is Vader just supposed to be some sad, old man? Is that the point? He realizes he was tricked, but there's no way to go back? Anakin kills Mace so that Palpatine can help save Padme, but then he finds out that Palpatine doesn't actually know how to save her. Then Palpatine tells Anakin that as long as he keeps doing dark side stuff they will discover the secret and Anakin goes along with it because he's got nothing else at that point? Okay, but then when Palpatine starts blatantly lying about the Jedi trying to usurp democracy and murder ALL THE SENATORS Anakin doesn't seem to realize or care that Palpatine is lying. And then Palpatine utilizes that lie to turn the Republic into the Empire and Anakin still goes along with it (even though he's never actually told about the Empire, which is weird).

    Then once his life falls apart, even though he never apparently cared about the Empire, he still falls in line with Sidious. Anakin knows (or at least should know) that he is being used by the time he is sent to Mustafar. Anakin thinks that by killing all the Jedi and all the Separatists, he'll be strong enough from doing dark side things to save his wife. But then he chokes her. It's like Anakin is being manipulated, and he knows he is being manipulated, but he's also shouting about his new Empire, even though he isn't all that concerned with it.

    That scene on Mustafar is supposed to be when Anakin stops trying to gain power to save Padme and just starts gaining power for the sake of gaining power, but why? He isn't actually concerned with being evil and creating an Empire, he's just doing this stuff for Padme. Anakin was never sold on the idea of an Empire in the first place? So why is he so adamant about the Empire once he starts yelling at Obi-Wan? I feel like there are scene's missing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
  19. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    Remember the hologram Obi-Wan watched?

    Palpatine: You have done well, my new apprentice. Go and bring peace to the EMPIRE.

    I know Anakin’s thick-headed, but even he would deduce that the Republic is now an Empire.

    My take on his rant about overthrowing Palpatine and his own new Empire is that he’s not talking sense. That’s the point. Remember, the part of him that’s still Anakin is in there going, “OMFG WTF ARE YOU DOING!? STOP! STOP THIS! GAAAH!!” He’s trying to justify his actions any way he can, even if he’s deluding himself into thinking if he can just take over the Empire himself, he’d make it right again.

    The dude, during his confrontation with Obi-Wan, was a teensy bit out of his mind. Drunk on power, wracked by guilt (the Anakin part) and he’s trying to come up with a justification for his actions.

    He does the Dark-Side stuff because he literally has nowhere else to go. Where could he go? The whole galaxy is an Empire now. And we’re not even covering that Palpatine would deal with him if he decided to go AWOL. The only thing keeping him going now is his intense hatred for himself and Palpatine. And the vain hope that one day he’ll be strong enough to topple the man. Hence his speech to Luke about how their combined strength could end the destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.

    He’s supposed to be a sad, depressed, self-hating man? That might be exactly the point. The whole narrative is about how letting paranoia, fear, and hatred destroy your life if you let it. Anakin had everything. A respected hero of the Clone Wars, a Jedi Knighthood, a wife, children (though the latter two would be questionable for the Jedi) But due to blind paranoia, he listens to the snake and ends up destroying everything he once held so dear. By the end of the Prequels, he was a shell of who he once was. He couldn’t even breathe on his own anymore.

    Vader, despite all appearance to the contrary, is supposed to be a broken man trapped in a hell of his own making. That’s the true tragedy. That’s who he is. That’s why he follows the Empire. That’s why he continues to do the Dark-Side. Because he has nowhere else to go, and he did that to himself. And he knows it. And he hates it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
  20. CampOfSorgan

    CampOfSorgan Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 27, 2020
    While it's obvious that Vader has an underlying hate for Sidious after all that occurred, I think one of the reasons he continues to serve the Empire is because he gets used to being Sidious' apprentice.

    While of course, in TESB we learn Vader wants to use Luke and overthrow the Emperor -- those several years between ROTS and ANH, I feel as if Vader just forces himself to get used to being second-in-line to Sidious.

    Also in a way, Sidious is the last link he still has to his past life as a Jedi. Of course Sidious is no longer the Chancellor or viewed as a friendly mentor anymore. But he is still a remnant of Anakin's past.
     
  21. StartCenterEnd

    StartCenterEnd Jedi Master star 3

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    May 2, 2006
    Saving Padme is the core yes but it’s also buried under a lot of justification. He willingly chooses to decide himself that the Jedi were evil and the Empire is the best chance at peace. As has been said he feels it’s too late. He tasted the dark side and embraced and the more power you get, the more you want, the more you need. Justify it by buying into Palpatines moral relativism and that the Jedi are equally powerful hungry and then willingly but into the political ideology of an empire and the Jedi as enemies of democracy. Couple that with anger, hate, grief, aggression, lost of humanity and you have Lord Vader.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
  22. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 19, 2020
    I just see no real link between the Anakin in Palpatine's office who just killed Mace Windu and is hearing blatant lies from Palpatine and the Vader on Mustafar prattling on about the Empire. And when you read the MAKING OF book you find out that Lucas drastically rewrote the "change" scenes, but then made little change to the post-change narrative it just seems more blatant to me that Lucas never married those two ideas together.

    And all of you keep giving good suggestions on how the two ideas COULD have been married together, but none of that is in the movie.
     
  23. StartCenterEnd

    StartCenterEnd Jedi Master star 3

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    May 2, 2006
    The difference is he kept going down the path to the dark side. Killing the Jedi, the younglings, the separatists, with no hesitation, no mercy like Sidious tells him. Each killing giving him more and more of a taste of the dark side until his original objective is obfuscated by his growing lust for power.
     
  24. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 19, 2020
    I just never bought it. His motivations never made sense to me. Palpatine presenting the Empire as a means to protect people would have been a through line that tied the Anakin of the PT to the Vader of the OT perfectly. Instead we just got some vague lust for power that stems from Padme. Then once Padme dies, Anakin just clings to the Empire because of vague reasons.
     
  25. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    To me it makes sense, Anakin already explicitly stated his dislike for the slow action of the Senate, desiring a more efficient system based on 'might makes right' and intimidation. He's strongly opposed to the Separatist cause (see the sunset scene on the balcony with Padme, or the way he dismisses Grievous as a monster), and is already good friends with Palpatine and seemingly agrees with his politics ("The chancellor doesn't appear to be corrupt", "I think he's a good man"' etc.).

    It's clear even from TPM that he has a noble yet naive view of the galactic politics, wishing Qui-Gon is some hero on Tatooine come to free slaves. It's this same viewpoint of seeing everything in simple black and white that ultimately causes his downfall, when he takes the position that it's Palpatine who's good and the Jedi are evil.

    Once ensnared in Palaptine's grasp via the use of his attachments, he's too deep in the system see it objectively. He carries on as Palpatine's enforced almost as an automatic reflex, keeping 'his' empire together against evil spearatists (rebels). It's also no accident that Anakin was constantly brought up in hierarchical environments, first as a slave, then in the master-student dichotomy with the Jedi. His continuation of that worldview is natural.

    It's only later when he find out he has a son that those same attachments that led him down the path of evil that he starts to think outside that mindset, going back to his original motivation for switching allegiances the last time around.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
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