PT Anakin/Vader's motivation at the end of ROTS

But does Anakin actually believe this? Or does he know it's a lie when he shouts it at Obi-Wan.

 

I think it's the words of a man who's hitched himself to an ideology he thinks is right above all else. One that will make the galaxy stronger, in the image he foresees for it. Whatever doubts he may have are buried by then, leaving him as Palpatine's puppet.

 

I buy that right up until Padme dies. That's when the house of cards collapses. When I first saw ROTS in 2005 I was like, no. Vader would lash out at Sidious at this point. Enough would have been enough. There needed to be emphasis on the Empire so that Vader would have something to cling to. If the Empire would have been the selling point, to keep Padme safe, I could see Vader still clinging to it even after Padme was gone.

Was Vader just waiting for 25 years until Sidious finally told him the secret to bring Padme back from the dead?

 

I just think Anakin is rational enough to believe his own actions caused Padme'a death (which in a roundabout way they did, 'lost the will' and all that), and still close enough with Palpatine and happy to go along with the ideology of the empire that he's be perfectly fine carrying on working much as he largely did before really: Defending the galaxy from dissenters and enforcing his vision of how it should be.

He knows enough that Palpatine wasn't responsible for Padme's death, and that they're past the point of trying to keep her alive, so he wouldn't simply leap to assigning Palpatine much blame. Other than Padme's death and his burns he got what he wanted.

 

It's just that Anakin knows that the foundation of the Empire is built on a lie. But the narrative wants us to feel like Anakin does actually believe that the Jedi were in the wrong, even though it is clear just from Anakin's facial expressions that when Palpatine is plotting out his version of events (Jedi trying to take over the Republic) that Anakin knows he's lying.

Palpatine says the Jedi were going to kill all the senators. And Anakin is clearly thinking, "Yeah, yeah, whatever. Just help me save Padme." But later on he has swallowed that lie and we're never told why. A lust for power?

 

I think its a combination of two things.
1. He really, really wants to believe that Palpatine is right and the Jedi are evil because its the only way he can even try to justify his actions to somebody else without sounding selfish.
2. The dark side is your mind on drugs, his emotions are amplified a hundredfold by the it and on a surface level he actually does believe Palpatines words because his emotions refuse to let any logic in.

Basically deep down he knows its crazy, but the dark side keeps that logic trapped away deep within what is left of Anakin.

 

I think Anakin truly believed the Sith ways could help save Padme, but also was convinced that there were real problems within the Jedi Order. He had his friend Palpatine whispering in his ear for some 13 years as well. By the time Palpatine revealed himself, Anakin was too sold on the idea to see things any other way. At the beginning of his turn, he was clearly at odds with himself about making these choices. But once he killed the things that were the most troublesome in his life (the Jedi and the Separatist leaders, who he believed were responsible for all this), he realized that he could use the ways of the Darkside to gain as much power as needed to control things. And that's what he's obsessed about most over the years-the ability to control what happens around him. Now he sees that opportunity. Once Palpatine tells him Padme is dead, he (IIRC) blames not himself or Sidious, but rather the Jedi and especially Obi-Wan, which only furthers the hate he already had for them-kind of like the icing on the cake, and he sees the "stability and security" offered by the Empire as a better alternative. So now we have a Darth Vader working in an empire that is all about control, with him now having the power to control what he wants (or so he thinks).

That's how I see it.

 

To me, motivations are too muddled. When Anakin goes to kill the Jedi he's only doing it to gain power in the dark side in order to save Padme. He doesn't actually see them as inherently evil and he knows by this point that the only reason they went to kill Palpatine is because he's the Sith Lord that was in charge of the Separatists.

So by the end of the film Anakin thinks the Jedi are actually evil?

 

Vader at least believes the Jedi are evil.

Anakin is the little voice in his head whispering "You are crazy!" to him the whole time.
He's just not paying attention, because he can't accept that he is that far gone.

 

No Anakin really Did believe the lie.

Anakin never saw The Sidious version unlike the audience.

Since when he was 9, he sees Palpatine as a wise and harmless politician just like the rest of the public.

That is why Anakin was conflicted of how the Jedi are breaking legal protocols to spy on Palpatine and when he found out about the power to save Padme... he was caught in a rock and a hard place. He wants to save her BUT NOT BECOME AN EVIL VILLAIN.

That is the whole point of the FAKE MACE DUEL....it’s the SET UP to finally show Anakin...it’s the Jedi who are evil with this plot and he is not the evil one by joining Palpatine.

Even for a while, he believed Dooku was actually part of the Jedi to discredit The Republic and not this Sith Apprentice just like the rest of the public. Only at the end, he realized Palpatine’s machinations.

Once he joined the darkside however, it forever dominated his destiny. Even Yoda told Luke, Vader underestimates The Emperor’s power until it was too late.

Chris Lee said the difference between his character and Vader is that Dooku was willing to join WHILE Vader was TRICKED into joining.

Once Padme died. He realized how truly powerful Sidious is and how handicapped he has become.

In the comic book, he tried to attack Sidious only to be humiliated. So now he has no choice but to obey his master and learn more about the dark side.

 

Again I think you consider the Empire a political concept. For the Sith it is not a political concept. It is the natural order on which the world should exist. This is not a sphere of life (as the politics is for most of us), for them it is how the life itself goes on. That's why I told you that Anakin (or more precisely said, Vader) is not pro-Empire or anti-Empire: this is not a poltical party to follow but a Sith point of view of everything: Power=Empire. If power is everything, then the Empire is everything. That's it. The Jedi Order can be apolitical as they have different concept of power, they even can live secluded and not interfere in this kind of affairs except in rare occasions but not the Sith. You cannot have the ultimate power without the government power.
Is this in the movie? Obviously, Palpatine said it to Anakin: "Once again the Sith would rule the Galaxy. And we should have peace". The unlimited power of the Sith oppression (as Mace Windu described it from Jedi point of view) can only be achieved by the total control of the new imperial order "for safe and secure society" (again quote of the movie). That's it. Speaking of this, do the Sith love democracy? Obviously not, because essential part of it includes sharing power as is the in the collective ruling institution of the Republic (the Senate) and the Sith master said: I'm the Senate. But again, this is not something that they would put in the sector "political views " in their Galactic Facebok profile, if I can say so. Is a way of thinking in general.

Anakin as Anakin and also as Vader never cared for the strictly political aspect of things. It can be seen still in the meadow scene in AOTC: if it works is fine for me. This pragmatic attitude to the politics contiue in his Vader persona still in ROTS. He said to Padme that he achieved the power they needed to make the things they wanted them to be. And he in fact invited Padme to be his empress, i.e. to rule with him. Rule what? well, the world actually, i.e. the empire. This is the connection: the empire is the world, but the world in perfect order (according to Sith) and is not because Anaki/Vader suddenly became interested in poltics.
Why Anakin said MY empire? because he embraced the Sith truth and this empire is his concern already and he obviously has plans (at that moment) to overthrow Palpatine which is something that every Sith aspire to do; again Dooku acted in similar way in AOTC (come to me Obi Wan and so on). Yes, these things are not said in this exact sequence of the movie but the correlation between them is obvious, at least for me. Yes, the dialogue is not literal here, but correct me if I'm wrong but it was you who insisted in another thread that the dialogue shouldn't be (always) literal.

 

Maybe this is the reason I can't really get into these movies. You have to infer way too much for motivations to be clear. The kid basically just turns on his friends for the promise to keep his wife alive AFTER he's just been told that Palpatine doesn't actually know how to do it. Is he just dumb?

 

I believe Anakin was wrong about the Sith and right about the Jedi.

 

What would Anakin say? Why would he argue or disagree with Palpatine? It achieves nothing. Anakin is pushing for Padme's life, not the republic in this scenario.

I think this makes sense for Anakin's character. Anakin, I think being someone lashes out in feelings of powerlessness, strikes out at Padme, in the feeling that he's going to lose her by her leaving him, in his mind, and tries to force (no pun intended) her to stay with him, force her to submit to his power. To me, this lines up with Yoda saying, "the shadow of greed, that is." To me, his attachment to Padme, his jealousy of her leaving (maybe even being, in his mind, with Obi-Wan), his power hunger, he's twisted into greed for her, now she's an object for him to keep, a possession for himself. To me, him losing Padme makes him feel powerless, the way he felt powerless with the loss of his mom, and he hates feeling powerless, and seeks power to avoid that and it may start with protecting Padme, but it grows the more power he thinks is within his reach. I think there's motives of pain and such in there, but, to me, powerlessness is his main motive. And when he Padme rejects the whole thing, Anakin tries to pitch her the ruling to galaxy thing and him killing Palpatine, and he gets, in a way, high on his own power that he thinks is now within his reach.

Anakin in AOTC brings up his perception, of using force to make people do what he wants, what he thinks is right, in his mind. I think this is there already, but the power he thinks is within his reach fuels that more, in this moment.

 

He doesn't need to say anything. But it's clear that at one point Anakin realizes the whole thing (Jedi-coup) is a falsehood, but later he is yelling those same lies with conviction. So where did the flip occur?

 

While I can say I think there's a weakness in writing, if I'm supposed to take his words at face value in that scene (I'm assuming this is referring to the, "From my point of view the jedi are evil!" line). But I saw an interesting take on this, and while it's one I'm not personally committed to, I think it's an interesting one none the less, so to frame it, I'll use apart of what I see as connected to it: Maybe, in Anakin's mind, the jedi are the reason his mom died (him feeling held back), they're the reason he felt inhibited from saving his wife, they've not given him the professional acclaim he thinks he deserves and such. The take of the person was essentially that because the jedi haven't allowed him to have what he wants, he sees them as evil. Also, the jedi were trying to take over, though not in the way Palpatine was saying.

I will say, in my opinion, while I think that part does have muddled writing, I think Anakin is justifying his actions to himself, in theory.

 

Perhaps they should not have shown Anakin leading the attack on the Jedi Temple. While a cool scene, it does seem a bit sudden and extreme from the scene before. It's like we jumped ahead an entire movie. Maybe have him try to stop it or something before realizing it was too late.

 

No there is a whole progression that lead up to that turn of the dime.

It all began when Palpatine puts him on the Jedi Council which lead to the Jedi not making him a master and asks him to spy on the Chancellor which is against the Jedi Code.

Then the Opera Scene where he was told about the Jedi Plot and that the Jedi and Sith are the same where Anakin countered nope Jedi is good while Sith is evil. Then Palpatine told him the power to save Padme.

Followed by the reveal that he is the Dark Lord. What did Anakin do??? HE IMMEDIATELY JOIN BECAUSE HE WANTS TO SAVE PADME!!!! Of course NOT. He turned him over to the Jedi Council because he is a righteous person. But Palpatine did made him conflicted at this point. He wants to save Padme BUT WILL NOT KILL HIS JEDI FAMILY AT THE SAME TIME.

Hence, Palpatine’s Coup De Gras....his Final Plan to become the Emperor and to turn this conflicted Anakin. The STAGED MACE DUEL.

Anakin was there to help Mace arrest Palpatine so he can pump info from him in jail about saving Padme ....he wasn’t there ready to join Palpatine and kill his Jedi family ..UNTIL Palpatine made Mace change from arrest to execute which forced Anankin’s hand. Palpatine showed Anakin that the Jedi are willing to do what the Sith would do. They are the same!! The only difference is that the Jedi are hypocritical about it.

Once he attacked Mace... he had become an accomplice to Palpatine....where can he go now? Besides in his mind...he did not do anything wrong...he was defending a begging unarmed man from the Jedi who was the aggressor. And he still wanted to save Padme.

So Palpatine reaffirms the righteous Anakin that they are in the right.

“Because the Jedi did not trust you, I believe your the only Jedi with no knowledge of this plot.”

That is after Anakin became Vader.

So it’s not just a turn of a dime that he turned and you only see him as dumb because you have knowledge of the CT that is not known to him. We all know Palpatine is that arrogant evil mastermind that all the villains feared while Anakin and the rest of the public sees Palpatine as the wise politician and harmless facade.

He found out Only at the end who Palpatine really was but now knows he is not powerful enough to defeat his master. That is the tragic story of The Chosen One.

 

I agree with this. Both Padme and Luke said as much, and I'm sure it was no mistake that their characters were written to believe that. I believe that Darth Vader's anger and hatred was simply too strong for the good in Anakin to win out-not to mention he was in a situation for years that didn't really allow for the good in him to re-emerge. But Anakin was never completely gone-despite what Yoda said, which is why Anakin was able to turn good again in the end. And again, that is all in the writing of the characters: Obi-Wan and Yoda believed Anakin was gone, and Vader had to be killed. It was Anakin's family that always believed there was still good in him and tried their best to bring it back out. It's actually quite a moving storyline.

 

Anakin knows that Palpatine is not an unarmed man. He can shoot death bolts from his fingers. And the "plot" Palpatine is talking about is the Jedi planning on killing an evil Sith Lord that has taken control of the Republic. So again, is Anakin just going along with this lie because it's his only choice or is he just dumb and actually believes it?

 

Again you are looking at it from the audience POV and NOT Anakin’s.

The Jedi Plot is for the Jedi to take over the galaxy and assassinate the Chancellor who happens to be a Sith Lord.

It’s Dooku who is in charge of the Separatists who is a FORMER Jedi. He is only a Sith Apprentice because the Jedi says so. The Jedi and Dooku could’ve been in on it from the beginning. If Anakin is dumb then the whole galactic Senate is dumb as well. Because that’s exactly the what was told to solidify Palpatine’s lies.

And why do you say, Anakin knows that Palpatine is really not defenseless??? Either way, Palpatine made his point...that the Jedi would kill someone who gave up. The Jedi Thing to do is to arrest Palpatine at that point....even though the whole audience knows that is a bad idea since we know Palpatine is the Dark Lord incarnate. But that’s why the Jedi philosophy irks the hell out of me. Same thing with Obi-Wan....he had the chance to end Vader but since the duel was over The Jedi Way is to not kill him.

Yes he told Anakin he’s a Sith Lord BUT NOT THE SITH LORD associated with Dooku or the one who has staged the war itself....no that’s the evil Jedi who was behind the war.

Yoda even warned Luke.
“Do Not underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father’s fate you will.”

So Anakin really believe Palpatine is just a harmless but wise politician who knows the Dark Side...until he realized he is the Ultimate Dark Lord ...and by that time it’s just too late for him until the arrival of Luke.

 

So you're telling me that Anakin actually didn't know that Palpatine was Sidious? So Anakin is dumb.

The senate doesn't know that Palpatine is Sidious. The Jedi do.

 

Obi-Wan:
He was DECEIVED by a lie. Palpatine is the Sith Lord we’ve been looking for. He is behind everything including the war.

Anakin:
I saw Master Windu attempted to assassinate the Chancellor myself.

Obi-Wan:
Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!!

Anakin:
From my point of view the Jedi are evil!!

Yeah but you really can’t blame Anakin...he was put in a position where the Jedi wasn’t trusting him and NOT TELLING HIM EVERYTHING while at the same time having nightmares about Padme which he vows will never happen again since his mom.

So he knows Palpatine is Sidious BUT NOT THE Sidious who was in cahoots with Dooku and behind everything that the Jedi has been telling him.

Put yourself in his position.

You’ve been adopted by a family lead by a kind old grandpa. For 13 years, he never steered you wrong and you became really close..but then your older brother and your uncles started to change and started to do something you feel that’s not right. Then all of a sudden you’re older brother and uncles wanted you to spy on your grandpa saying he could be Hitler himself who has been hiding all this time and behind all the new wars that has happened all this time while at same time your grandpa is saying they are the evil ones and they plan to assassinate him.

Like Anakin, you will not make a move until you know all the facts. And then you see your uncle about to kill your begging grandpa ....so of course you had to save him.

Then he tells you...yes I am Hitler BUT then he said, he’s not really what you’ve been told. You must break through the fog of lies your family has surrounded around you.

Add Force powers and a dying wife then you will see what Anakin’s POV is. LOL

 

My first thought upon watching ROTS back in 2005 was that Anakin was dumb. All any of you have done is reconfirm that.

 

By the end of ROTS, Padme is gone, so Vader pretty much just embraces the Sith way: learn all you can from your master, than kill him and take over. By the time of ROTJ, Vader adds a goal of finding his son and showing him (and himself) that he (Vader) had chosen correctly in following the Dark Side. Then, they can put things right, as Vader sees "right". That's how it's presented in James Kahn's ROTJ novelization, and it still works at the end of the PT.