main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Anakin/Vader's motivation at the end of ROTS

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by FightoftheForgotten, Oct 26, 2020.

  1. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    I don't know if I really agree wholly. While I agree there could be more expansion on that, I think Anakin knows he isn't in a position to get what he wants and argue with Palpatine and/or try and prevent the situation. Though I do think there's some form of struggle for Anakin.
    Vader has no personal reason to lash out at Palpatine. As far as I think, he doesn't know he's lying there. I'm also not sure, in his current state, if he'd be able to kill him. Though I think the novelization offers a different perspective, that I don't agree with, in that Vader sees Palpatine as all he has left and that's why he doesn't kill him. But I think Vader was waiting for a time when he could kill Palpatine and not die as a result.

    I don't think Anakin's only motive, particularly after Padme's death, is to save Padme. I think there's a desire for importance, power, forcing things to be the way he wants them, along with Padme.
    I don't really agree it's way too much of an inference of motivations. Anakin talks about his perspective on politics and the system in AOTC and expresses wanting more and shows his desire for importance in his anger at being passed over in an opportunity to be a master, to him.

    As far as turning on his friends: The only friend I really see Anakin as having is Obi-Wan. And I think there's some burgeoning resentment already there as, to me, Anakin expresses a bit of an ego when Padme asks about Obi-Wan's help, and Anakin says that they don't need his help, and jealousy when he asks about Obi-Wan having been there, and in AOTC where he yells, "It's all Obi-Wan's fault. He's jealous. He's holding me back". That, plus showing Palpatine boosting Anakin's ego and such. And with the additional context of his backstory as a slave... I think it's there, imperfect in more ways than I'd like, but I think it's not really a leap.
    I guess. It requires a lack of real intelligence to become a villain like that.
     
  2. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    that's because good is dumb. :vader:
     
    FightoftheForgotten likes this.
  3. wobbits

    wobbits Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2017
    What exactly could he go back to?

    Any Jedi who survived Order 66 were not going to take him back, he had no family, his friends are dead, and he had just helped Palps gain total control of the galaxy. Obi Wan isn't going to move him into his hovel on Tatooine and Yoda wouldn't be inviting him to Dagobah for soup. People were not going to open their arms to him, they despised him. There was no way he thought anything different. He hated himself at this point too but he still wanted the power. His grief and his rage helped him achieve it, that's how the Sith work. The give in to their emotions to make them stronger.

    The recent Charles Soule comics delve into the situation. Early on suited Vader is no longer confident in his abilities and has lost ambition. For years Palps' cruel, controlling nature is showcased in abusing and belittling Vader so much so that he turns into himself and feels no longer capable of rebelling against his master. Palpatine does a horrible number on Vader psychologically. Tarkin is even elevated above him during this time and his only authority is over the 501st.

    This type of psychological abuse reminds me of what happens when a narcissist breaks down a family member/spouse, employee, or friend slowly over the years. Hearing how worthless you are day after day, nothing you do is good enough, tip toeing around on eggshells because you have no idea what's going to happen any day or what kind of mood the narc is in. Sometimes there is physical abuse that accompanies the verbal, emotional, and mental attacks. The narcissist lies and makes the other person think they are losing their mind, quite literally. The name calling and humiliation both in public and in private are so nasty that the victim begins to hide. They no longer take pleasure in things they used to. They retreat from public functions because they have lost all self esteem. It slowly erodes them into nothing but an empty shell and they end up having no where to go yet desperately wanting to leave.

    In the suit his force abilities are diminished. Any ideas of overthrowing Palps went out the window when he became a machine. He was a strong natural force user but the cybernetics interfere with his force manipulation. If he tries to kill Palps, it won't end in his favor.

    "You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master." If you (general) had to choose between being killed by your master or sticking it out as the #2 power in the galaxy, the latter option doesn't sound bad.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
    Talos of Atmora and DARTHLINK like this.
  4. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    I rather like movies that make me ponder over what they’re thinking rather than stop the flow to inform you what they’re thinking. The Prequels are criticized heavily for the overt hand-holding that I find it refreshing Anakin didn’t wax lyrical about his motivation.

    Look at what just happened. He killed Mace Windu, a revered Jedi Master and a member of the Jedi Council. His “what have I done” is short-hand for “The Jedi will never accept me back after this. I’m so screwed.” Then Palpatine does the whole “but if we work together...” line, dangling one last string of hope for Anakin that he can somehow get something out of this.

    And what friends? The only one we saw him ever interact with in the Temple was Obi-Wan. Everyone else he either casually knows, or outright resents. And defer to the previous paragraph.

    We’re talking about a man who is so mentally warped and ruined beyond all recognition. He’s scared, desperate, guilt-ridden and sees no way out of this. He’s a trapped animal backed into a corner now. He sees threats on every front, but here’s this guy promising he’d help him out. Yes, the guy is obviously evil, but what else could he do? The Jedi won’t accept him. Not after helping to turn Mace into a one-armed lightening conductor.

    What’s his motivation? Well, what does a trapped animal wish to do when cornered and surrounded?

    Survive.

    That’s it. Survive. He knows he can’t kill Sidious. He knows he can’t flee. And if survival means ass-kissing the abuser (Sidious) then that’s what he does.

    Survive, and hope that one day he gets strong enough to stand a fighting chance against the man.

    Whether it be physical or psychological, survival is the most basic, primal instinct and motivation in all of us. It tells us to either submit and pray they don’t hurt us too much, or fight with every fiber of our strength and hope we win. Vader chose the former because he knew the latter would only end in death.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
  5. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    IMO at that point he's angry beyond reason, and possibly does think that in the moment. But in his quieter moments probably would've contemplated the nuances of what transpired, and would've felt differently. But what was done was done. So he embraced the new life.
     
    Subtext Mining, Tonyg and DARTHLINK like this.
  6. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Calling Anakin in ROTS dumb doesn't really feel accurate to me. As for what Vader's ultimate motivation is, @wobbits and @DARTHLINK pretty much hit the nail on the head. The ROTS novelization artfully illustrates it as well:

    “And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow. In the end you don't even want to. In the end, you do not even want to. In the end, the shadow is all you have left. Because the shadow understands you, the shadow forgives you, the shadow gathers you unto itself—And within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame.”

    I think many people really forget what Anakin's relationship with Palpatine even is as far as the PT's narrative is concerned and the significance it carries. Maybe it's Vader's legacy from how he appears in TESB and that people only ever want him to be depicted as a badass but he's very much stuck in an abusive dynamic with his new master. If anything, it's one of the things that the PT undoubtedly succeeds at doing and one of the elements many people who "rewrite" the trilogy often end up soiling the most severely.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2020
    Tonyg, darkspine10 and wobbits like this.
  7. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    The similarities between dumb and desperate are that both words begin with D. That's all. The differences however, are big ones. Anakin is desperate. His wife would die and he didn't receive by the Jedi anything but clichés statements of lifes in general. He is alone, he is desperate and the only way out SEEMS to be the Palpatine's thin hope to find a way (together) to save her. You are insisting that Anakin should know everything but this is the privileged point of view of the listener/viewer of the story. Those, who are in the story don't know everything and cannot go back to do it other way, when is gone, is done.
    To call him dumb, is to call dumb those who are about to decide if they should allow a risky medical operation that gives 10% chance to save their beloved ones and 90% for them to die. They know the risk, they are just desperate.
    And after Mustafar what exactly should Vader do? He had lost everything and Palpatine cemented his slavery to him, not only by paradoxically being the only one who saved his life but to be sure that Vader cannot step back for grief and desperation. How? By saying him that he killed Padme. Ans here comes the important detail: not that Padme is dead bit she was murdered by Vader (something that Palpatine couldn't know at that point). Sith power comes from the hate and there is no bigger hatred than the self hate. The roar and the suffering "Noo" says it all at the end.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
    Subtext Mining likes this.
  8. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    It's 2005. I have already seen the OT. I have already seen TPM and AOTC.. We know Padme is going to be with child. We know that the Clone Wars have been waging for the past three years. We know Anakin has a strong emotional attachment to his family members. The stage is set. This is easy.

    Anakin wants a quick end to the war because he doesn't want his child born during wartime. He doesn't have strong ties to the Jedi because of how they view his personal life so he has no issue turning on them. He's flirted with the idea of dictatorship before so that's already established. He accepts fascism because it will force the galaxy into a peaceful state. It's the perfect reason to turn and it goes perfectly with his goals in TESB.

    And instead it's just another nightmare and desperation leading to bad decisions that he just sticks with for the next twenty years because ANH already exists.
     
  9. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    This is your personal connection to the movies. Many people haven't. I know people who were introduced to SW by ROTS: not as cultural artifact, of course, they knew it. I mean as real movies: they watched them after ROTS because ROTS ignited real interest to them. Is not this one of the purposes of every movie that is part of bigger story?!.
    I'm sorry to say it but there is no a second in the movie that implies that. Yes, in general every parent wants his child to be safe. But Anakin wants quick end of the war as every normal citizen of the Republic who is not psychopath or is not making profit of the war. Also, he doesn't just want quick end. He wants quick victory, actually ;) .
    Now this is strange. It is because of his aspirations to be the perfect Jedi that he stays in the Order after Padme's pregnancy (is more than obvious). He knows that the other Jedi couldn't accept the secret part of his life but he is fighting to stay in the Order even to become the youngest master. However even this motive would be weak as is professional. The personal motives are always the strongest: one of the main reasons that the Jedi stayed away from personal attachments (is not that I personally like it but is a rule in the Order).
    And yes, people make bad decisions most of the time. SW frequently shows that: Luke made plenty of bad decisions in OT. But his right decisions were crucial, that is what mattered in the end.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
  10. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    I didn't say it did.

    Yes, that's why I wrote it.

    Again, this is my own personal take on how ROTS could have played out.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
    whostheBossk likes this.