Saga Anakin vs Ben Solo

He wasn't a child soldier or anything.

Yes, I am pro-Kylo and I can see you're not (I'm going to take a guess here- you're a finn-rey shipper probably....as for my views, they are all backed by reasons explained in the associated novels (canon) which I have mentioned in my previous posts and you've chosen to ignore .... I keep saying this again and again... I don't blame the parents.. ... please read my posts before jumping to conclusions.[/quote]

I'm not a Finn/Rey "shipper". If anything, I would ship Finn and Poe. But what does this have to do with Kylo? I appreciate his character, how he is written and acted, but I don't like him. He murders his father for barely a reason at all and generally acts like an entitled brat who thinks the force makes him better than everyone else.

What have I been ignoring from your posts? Please tell me. I see you constantly come up with justifications why Kylo turned out the way he is and most of them are about his parents failing him in a way. You never go into detail where you think Kylo himself failed, as if he had no free will at all and were only the victim of circumstance.

 

Actually Han was the one who told Leia that he knew that he knew when ever she looked at him she was reminded of what happened.

Leia said "you think I don't want him back".

No parents are perfect, but from the way they treated each other it is clear they clearly are loving to each other. There was no yelling, or fighting or bitterness, like there would be with a dysfunctional couple. There actions show they love him and each other very much

I have to run, but I will back to elaborate more.

 

I had that thought too after seeing TFA for the first time and learning about all of this backstory that is not shown (and probably won't be shown) in the ST. It would interesting if they decided to do this. The fact that they have marketed the film as simply Star Wars: The Force Awakens rather than Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens makes the theory more compelling.

My gut feeling is that this is not the plan, but hey you never know...

 

I'd love it, but it would be rather difficult to make the big 3 suddenly 32 years younger, ntm replacing them would be sacrilegious. I would rather have it in book, or graphic novel


Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

 

Same here. I don't blame his parents or Uncle Luke. Ben strikes me as very emotional and easily frustrated. It wouldn't be hard for someone, like Snoke, with evil intentions to manipulate that and use it to his advantage by feeding him what he wants to hear instead of what he needs.

It's an interesting contrast between Anakin and Ben, and Vader and Kylo.

Anakin was 9 when he learned he was a force user and was trained as the chosen one. He had to leave behind his mother and the only stability he knew, for the unknown. Almost right away the first person he bonded with, Qui-Gon gets killed and he's passed in to Obi-Wan. It's clear to me that Obi- Wan did the best he could and really cared, but was in no way able to see what was going on with Anakin and his emotional issues as far as attachments. When he gets attached to someone, be it his mother or Padme he literally can't let go. Loss is his biggest fear.

When he feels Padme has turned against him (understandably so) he turns on her. This is actually quite common with people who become over invested in another person. When he finds out that she is dead (assuming his child died with her) the last of Anakin dies and Vader is born.

Unlike Anakin, Vader is cold, detached and largely unemotional. He doesn't get angry really, when one of his generals messes up he just chokes them (disposes of them, for no longer being useful)/and promotes the next guy.

Ben, on the other hand was raised with two parents who loved each other and him. He may or may not have been an "oops", but he was wanted and cared for. He also had an Uncle who was a fully trained Jedi and unlike Anakin, Ben knew his potential from birth. Unlike Anakin he doesn't have attachment issues. He has a family, including extended family like Chewie and for all we know maybe even Lando (and don't forget R2 and 3PO).

He was probably trained from a very young age. But because of who his family was; a member of a royal family and outspoken politician /rebel leader for a mother, a war hero and former smuggler for a father (who probably still had more than a few enemies that would be a threat to his son), and a famous Jedi/ war hero for an Uncle. That's a lot of pressure for anyone. Then add in the legacy of Bing Anakin/Vader's grandson. Is it any wonder and overwhelmed kid with serious anger and frustration problems would want to be like some one as controlled and detached as Vader.

He views Ben as a separate person, much the way Anakin and Vader were separated people. To him Ben who probably cared and wanted to do the right thing was weak. His father was the GFFA equivalent of a muggle. As some one who craves power and control, his father was a reminder of his old self that he hated.

I get the feeling that Ben and Han may have been close at one time when he was little.

Ben didn't chose that dark side until he was old enough to make that choice, but he had Snoke pushing him, and telling him lies about it, much the was Palpatine did with Anakin.

Both turned, but for almost opposite reasons.

Han and Leia may each blame themselves, but neither were at fault.

There is so little information about Luke in this one, that it's impossible to comment on that relationship.

Leia, ever the mother and loving wife was trying to protect both Han and Ben, but her trying to do it alone, she was ended up without the two people she loved the most.

Han didn't leave until Ben started turning in to Kylo, he didn't know about Snoke as Leia kept the full truth from him. He blamed himself and left because he felt his presence was hard for her, and wrongly assumed that he reminded her of him.

That really makes me curious as to exactly what happened that he would think such a thing.

In a way, Kylo is a manifestation of Anakin's dark side, but without the calm detachment. He wants to let go and not feel, bit he can't and that may be why instead of feeling stronger and more powerful from killing he was weekend and almost sad. He expected one thing, but was surprised to find something else.

There may still be a tiny spark in him, but as far as being the redeemable; I have my doubts. That isn't to say it couldn't happen, I just have trouble seeing it.

Vader was turned and started feeling Anakin again when Luke showed up, Kylo hates Ben and is trying to "kill him"

What I think would be fascinating would be to see him with Leia. Given that her son, killed his father the operatic potential could be an emotional goldmine.

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

 

I am all for Bens grandfather. Because when Anakin didn't throw a fit if something didn't go his way.
But what does Ben do? He throws a coniption fit when something does not go his way.

 

Christensen wasn't bad. He actually displayed a wide range of emotions in his scenes compared to Driver who only has two defult emotions, angry and pouting.

 

I really like this analysis of Vader is the OT. I think one of my favorite SW moments ever is the conversation Vader has with Luke, once Luke turns himself in.

But I cannot abide by the potshots taken at the prequels. I agree that Adam Driver is a very good actor, but - in my humble opinion - I think that Christensen is either better or has more of the "IT" factor. Also, the prequels have tons of great actors and great acting. I'll take Palpatine, Qui-Gon, and Obi-Wan from the prequels over practically anyone in the ST. I think Daisy is great overall, and she had some decent moment, but outside of Snoke being acted to perfection by Gollum, there are no specific moments of note in the ST. Again, just in case it isn't clear, it is only my opinion.

 

Anakin's emotional journey works better for me. From the very beginning I could empathize with the 9 year old boy who had to choose between staying with the mother he loved dearly or going with Qui Gon for an opportunity to better his life. People like to hate on Jake Lloyd but he did what he was asked to do and I love the goodbye scene between Ani and Shmi. The next time he sees his mother she's tied up, minutes from death, having been tortured brutally. He's coming on this after being tormented by visions of her death and not being able to do anything about them. Christensen did a great job here with the emotion, visibly I can follow him switching between his grief and then the rage leading to the Tusken slaughter. During his admission of the crime to Padme I can see him struggle with his feelings of hate, failure, and frustration. Even though the romance wasn't written very well, I can grasp the concept of George trying to show him as a passionate young man who still feels all his emotions deeply despite the Jedi teachings. Christensen shows me conflict and resentment at being constantly told Anakin is the Chosen One but feeling held back at the same time, not just because they denied him the rank of Master but because they were very good at conveying their mistrust despite possibly believing the prophecy. (Mace Windu was very convincing in his disdain for Anakin.) I also felt like Hayden nailed the surprise and the joy over finding out Anakin was going to be a father.

What I am getting at is that Christensen has a wider range of facial expressions that worked for me in showing me what Anakin was thinking or feeling. Hayden said once in an interview that he came in thinking he was going to be displaying that full on rage and anger and was surprised when George told him he had to hold back until the very end. The end is my absolute favorite part of the saga because of Hayden's emotional range. He shows conflict, regret and anguish in the Ruminations scene and while slaughtering the Separatists on Mustafar; then the crazy dark side instability when Padme confronts him, and irrational anger when he sees Obi Wan emerge from her ship. The powerful hate filled resolve in his face during the duel with Obi Wan (the close up camera shot of his face while he bends Obi Wan backwards with the lightsaber to his throat) is one of the highlights of the film for me.

Through what little we have so far on Kylo, I'm not feeling his arc or his backstory. The idea that the viewer is supposed to unquestionably empathize with him because of an imagined slight by his loving parents or the misunderstanding with his uncle isn't compelling enough for me. He appears a whiny, entitled sullen brat as a 30 year old man. Driver is good at the physicality of the role but he doesn't successfully sell me on his emotional portrayal. I honestly cannot tell the difference in what he is trying to convey visually. To me he has two standard facial expressions- screaming temper tantrum or sullenness. The ST films tell us through other character dialog that Ren is supposedly teetering towards the light side BUT they show something completely different. He asks Vader's helmet to show him the power of the dark, promises to finish what Vader started. In addition, every time the film has placed Kylo at a crossroads he hasn't done anything other than double down on the bad. He chooses to murder his own father who he claims he didn't hate for the promise of more dark side power. Instead of choosing to help Rey end the attack on his mother and the Resistance, he unhesitatingly chooses to make himself Supreme Leader and then lies to Hux about who really murdered Snoke. Kylo didn't kill Snoke out of the goodness of his heart for Rey- he killed Snoke for himself. To end his own abuse at the hands of Snoke as well as elevate himself which was hinted at in the TFA visual dictionary where it mentions he plans for his ascension.

To me, Kylo isn't "Anakin done right." I definitely don't wish Anakin was more like Kylo. The tragic events of Anakin's life are sympathetic to me. Leaving your mother and then holding her while she dies holds a lot more weight for me when seeing him naively believe that Palpatine is going to help him save Padme. Wanting power to save someone you love is a motivation I can understand as opposed to wanting power because you believe you are entitled to it due to lineage or because you're mad at your parents.

The only thing I wish had been done differently is that, were technology possible, in order to drive home better the idea that Anakin was the Chosen One, George should have shown more of Anakin's power using the Force. Stopping the blaster bolt in mid air, or freezing people in place, or dragging people to you from across the room are all really cool aspects of the force that the ST has given us.

 

Anakin did have cool force scenes in TCW and his comics.

I think him not displaying much force powers was because he depended more on his physical skills compared to when he become Vader where he depended more on the force after his injuries.

 

I haven't completely finished watching TCW because I have a hard time with the disconnect Matt Lanter's voice creates.

 

I understand Anakin's turn to the darkside and his need for power in order to save Padme. I can see how Palpatine and even Snoke have a lust for power and how they use it to over power others, almost with great pleasure. I'm really trying to search for Kylo's reason for turning. It almost feels like the darkside somehow fills some void of entitlement and personal insecurity. It does not seem like he has a lust for power, nor does it give him pleasure, but rather he has a fear of being powerless. He uses the darkside as a mask, both in a literal sense as well as figuratively, to cover for these insecurities. While understandable, it almost amounts him to being the school yard bully who beats people up to cover for his own personal failings. In fact it reminds of Nelson and Lisa (if any of you remember that episode of the Simpsons where she develops a crush on him). I just don't know how much I really like that.

 

Well put. I realize that Lucas wrote the PT because Vader became such a popular character, but episodes 1 through 6 really are Anakin's story. We see his fall and his redemption.

Folks who only like the OT can say that we don't see the beginning of the arc for Obi-Wan, Vader, and the Emperor, but we do get the whole arc of the principal three characters. The PT takes those characters from the OT and fleshes them out, so now we have their full arcs. And you see PT fans clamoring for more Dooku and Qui-Gon stuff because we only get part of their story.

The ST was structured after Abrams' love of the mystery box, till Johnson brought his own more conventional story telling techniques. Abrams' meant for us to have these interesting characters, whose backstory gets revealed to us when appropriate. Abrams' story telling normally relies on flashbacks or character revelations about things that happened a priori. So as viewers, although we get the beginning of the arc for Rey and Finn, we are robbed of the beginning of the arc of Ben Solo's story. That's for the main three characters. We are also robbed of the majority of Snoke's arc, as well as Luke Skywalker's.

The ST's beginning approach was informed by Abrams' technique, and now Episode 8 completely blew that out of the water. I am fascinated, as a movie fan (not as a Star Wars fan, unfortunately), by what Abrams will do with Episode 9. Obviously his very flimsy designs (ala Lost and Fringe) did not convince Lucasfilm to rein Johnson in. So now, as the principal architect of 7, he has interesting choices to make in 9.