PT Anakin's change from TPM to AOTC

I am interested in discussing Anakin's change from Menace to Clones with fellow JCers. My motivation is as follows:

When I first saw Clones, my reactions to seeing Anakin again ten years down the road from Menace were

• (He had a haircut, his hair darkened, and it seems that he likes black. )
• He is so out of his depth:
  • Obi-Wan bows to Padmé, he doesn't.
  • When he says "Grown more beautiful, I mean", one can see Obi-Wan lifting his eyebrows and deciding to look aside.
  • When Obi-Wan reminds Padmé that the Jedi were assigned to her to protect her, not to start an investigation (this is the official line, which people need to keep in mind in a line of work - one sees later that the Jedi Order is actually open to more when the Council tells Obi-Wan that he must track down the bounty hunter who killed Zam Wesell and find out who he is working for), Anakin interrupts, promising that the pair will find out who is trying to kill Padmé, and causing Obi-Wan to say "We will not exceed out mandate, my young Padawan learner" to remind Anakin that it is not appropriate to make such statements over the table, especially not at a first meeting. Obi-Wan says "We will not go through this exercise again, Anakin, and you will pay attention to my lead", suggesting that similar incidents have happened before where it is deemed that Anakin needs to think more about the consequences of certain actions before he acts, and learn the standard protocol in diplomatic situations. Then Anakin asks "Why?" and Obi-Wan's response "What?" indicates that he cannot believe that Anakin is asking this in the middle of an official meeting. It is as though despite having been Obi-Wan's Padawan for ten years, surely having accompanied him on numerous missions and surely also having lesons in diplomacy at the Jedi Temple, Anakin still has not grasped that certain statements are not supposed to be made over the table and should be mentioned in private. How is this the case for a boy who did not lead a sheltered life and, as we have seen in Menace and later see three years down the road in Sith, where he has matured greatly, is a fast learner?
• (From this meeting with Padmé until the end of the speeder chase, Obi-Wan refers to Anakin's youth four times: "We will not exceed out mandate, my young Padawan learner", "And you will learn your place, young one" (both during the meeting with Padmé), "Besides, your senses aren't that attuned, my young apprentice" (when Obi-Wan realises that Padmé is being a bait) and "Only in your mind, my very young apprentice" (when Anakin jokes that he thought he already rivalled Yoda as a swordsman). I've always inferred, based on the phrase "We will not go through this exercise again, Anakin", that there was an understanding between Obi-Wan and Anakin that Obi-Wan would emphasise the word "young" to Anakin if the latter did something that called for Obi-Wan to remind him that he still had much to learn - no one uses the description "young X" to refer to a person several times a day on a daily basis unless it's part of a set phrase (which it isn't in this case).)
• Later, chatting with Padmé while she is packing, Anakin comments on Obi-Wan as follows: "In some ways - a lot of ways - I'm really ahead of him. ... He's overly critical. He never listens. He doesn't understand. It's not fair!" "He's overly critical" and "He doesn't understand" may be true, but not "He never listens" and certainly not "It's not fair!" How did the sunlit boy from Menace who was generally well behaved, relatively mature for his age and selfless transform into a moody, whiny and slightly egotistic nineteen/twenty-year-old? One would think that the Jedi Temple is not an institution where one should have to worry that youths might emerge with behaviour worse than when they entered! The viewer knows that Anakin is going through adolescence, has been unable to sleep well because of his dreams of his mother, which might contribute to his moodiness, and Palpatine has been feeding Anakin's ego. It's also possible that Anakin's mood just happened to be particularly good on the day he met Qui-Gon, and meeting a Jedi and the events that came with it were surely enough to keep one excited. Nevertheless, this is an enormous change in Anakin's personality. It is understandable, given that ten years is a long time, but these points do not seem that much to go on to explain that great an attitudinal difference, and the films do not help us much in imagining what else went on in those ten years. I am wondering if fellow JCers have other observations or suggestions (whether from EU or real life experience) that could explain such a change.

 

I guess you've never interacted with 19-year-olds before.

 

I interact with them as part of my daily job, actually. I would compare being a Jedi Padawan to being a truly outstanding youth, and my experience with truly outstanding youths is that their path tends not to be super volatile.

 

For me personally he went from being a kid to being a teenager who really sucks at flirting and likes dictatorships to much.

 

[QUOTE = "Count Yubnub, Beitrag: 56477826, Mitglied: 1374362"] Ich denke, Sie haben noch nie zuvor mit 19-Jährigen interagiert. [/ QUOYes

 

Ja, ich denke schon

 

Oh right! As a Jedi it's especially important, no, let's say mandatory, to be good at "flirting". Sure!!

No, he dared HINT at the fact that sometimes a dictatorship that works might be preferable to a bloated bureaucratic "democracy" where politicians "debate endlessly" (see TPM opening scrawl) instead of actually getting anything done.

 

To be honest, most teens are edgy like that. They think the world would be a better place if some all-powerful dictator was in charge and forced others to bend to his/her will. Hell, when I was that age, my role model was friggin’ Napoleon Bonaparte for crying out loud. I remember my teacher jokingly telling me that he’d keep an eye on me once he learnt that fact.

His comment about dictatorships betray nothing other than the implication that he doesn’t know the basic facts of the government he’s defending — indeed, Padmé had to explain that to him.

Anakin: *basically describes how a democracy works*
Padmé: “That’s exactly what we do, the problem is that not everyone agrees.”

And to be fair, he does kind of have a point. If you want a government where decisions get made quickly and time isn’t wasted on bloated debates and political corruption, a dictatorship is the way to go. However, the vast majority of people have a problem with that due to, y’know, dictatorships often violating basic human rights.

 

Teens can be truly outstanding in intelligence, athletics, science/technology etc but that doesn't mean that all of them are not going to ever have problems at home or school. Smart people are tempted all the time to do questionable, and yes even volatile things when you consider things like societal influence and limited finances.

You're talking about a kid who grew up as a slave. He was very defensive with Padme when they first met and insisted that he was "a person and my name is Anakin." I consider him to have led a very sheltered life until he left Tatooine with Qui Gon. Same kid who naively said "No one can kill a Jedi"

I'd be pretty frustrated myself if after ten years of having Jedi Masters talk about you and at you with these Chosen One expectations while at the same time mistrusting you and being afraid of your power. I'd definitely feel held back.

 

The bolded is something we need to keep in mind when discussing Anakin. He grew up a slave on a backward desert hellhole planet in the ass-end of the galaxy. Where he was under the complete mercy of Watto, who could do to him and his mother whatever the hell he wanted. The fact he was reasonable with them to an extent matters little. Kid was a slave. Watto could blow up his mom for giggles and there was not a damn thing Anakin could do about it. Oh, and did I mention he had a friggin' bomb somewhere in his body that would turn him into a pile of gore if he ran away? And Watto likely had the transmitter on hand at all times?

Then he gets freed by the Jedi whom he thinks are these super awesome space warriors who go around righting wrongs. Only to find out after a decade of working with them that the Republic (1) is bloated and corrupted and (2) honestly doesn't really give a damn about the Outer Rim planets. Oh, and the super awesome space warriors with laser swords and who can move things with their minds aren't exactly what he thought they were. They bend to the Senate which, as we've discovered, waste time with bickering and political shenanigans rather than getting things done.

So yeah, I can see why he might entertain the notion of a dictatorship. At least they get things done. A dictatorship with the right man could potentially do a lot better than a democracy of self-serving politicians.

Not to mention, of course, the tug-of-war the Jedi pull on him by going, "OMG YOU'RE THE CHOSEN ONE DESTINED TO SAVE US ALL!!!" yet seemingly hold him at arm's length.

EDIT: And let's be honest here, he spent his first nine years under what amounted to a dictatorship where Watto's word was law. Being subjected to the whims of a single entity who controls all the power is familiar to him.

 

You answered your own question but I would include a few more important elements:

He's not only been forbidden to have any contact with his mother, but also required to let go of his attachments to her. Something he obviously was unable to do. These bottled emotions and anxieties are going to come out in other ways. i.e. moodiness to say the least. Yes, the troubling dreams play a big part in that.

He's intoxicated by being around Padme again, and is bent on eliminating any threats to her. These drives are overriding his manners and protocol.

I'd also say over the last decade he's come to see that the Jedi tend to play things too safe and by the book. As we see in TPM, Anakin is always eager to go the extra mile. He likes to get things done effectively, even if he has to exceed his mandate. The decisions of the Council often leave him feeling hemmed in. (Aspects thoroughly explored in TCW). This is a great strength of his, but it's also his weakness when combined with his emotionality & impulsiveness.

Immediately after he says Obi-Wan never listens and it's not fair, his face conveys an expression of remorse and acknowledgment that he's gone too far. There seems to be an understanding in the air that he just got too worked up in the heat of the moment, and Padme continues by sympathizing with him. I'd also add that this is probably the first time he's had a chance to air his greviences to anyone outside the Jedi Order so he's got a lot of pressure built up. Sure, he's probably expressed these things to Palpatine before, but as we all know...

But to echo others here, yes, Anakin has not lived a normal childhood or adolescence by any means. Now consider just how contrasted each of the first two decades of his life were. That's a lot to process.

It's also interesting to note that even though Obi-Wan said they are only there to protect Amidala and not investigate the assassins, it is he who in a moment of excitement jumped out the window to apprehend the droid, hanging on to it in hopes of being escorted to said assassin. Did he perhaps deep inside feel Anakin actually kind of had a good point? Either way, it all ended up leading to an official investigation, which led Kenobi to Kamino et. al.

Interesting what you said about outstanding youth, I tend to see that they are the ones who are the most volatile. With all that pressure, for one. Especially when they spend years suppressing sides of themselves that don't fit into the mold of who they're expected to be. Look at child stars for example.

 

Why is everyone assuming Anakin should act like a "typical teen?"

We're dealing with a person so naturally capable, he can't take authority figures seriously. He is an unmatched prodigy and has heard authoritative adults arguing about whether he should even be trusted even as they acknowledge his uncanny level of power. His original surrogate father, Qui-Gon, publicly called him "The Chosen One." Besides the burden of stress, and the oddness of having taken up an extremely disciplined way of life unlike his childhood, he's had every reason in the world to develop arrogance and vanity in light of his rare individual power. And by rare I mean unique, even among the amazing Jedi surrounding him who are themselves an elite community of exceptional talent hand-picked from the entire galaxy.

And he's been carefully nurtured in that vanity by the political leader of the whole republic, someone essentially everyone trusts. Obi-Wan bit off more than he could chew when he stepped into Qui-Gon's shoes, and it's made worse by the fact that nobody yet suspects Palpatine of being thoroughly and unbelievably evil.

 

I'm sure puberty was a factor as well.

 

This raises another issue, because the Jedi presumably have serious training for students to manage their sexual feelings when these emerge. But I suppose the issue has to do with Anakin forming a powerful attachment to Padme before he even enrolled, so that emotional connection sent his attraction off in a direction most Jedi didn't have to handle. This is part of why Kenobi training him is problematic, because not only is he getting a Padawan directly after completing his own Jedi Knight training (and his trials were apparently waived in light of defeating an Dark Lord of the Sith) but Anakin is known to be a special case--not only because of his unusual power level but because of the fact that he has emotional and social development already that is out of line with ordinary Jedi experience. Consider how lightly he tries to calm Anakin about his nightmares in Attack of the Clones. Obi-Wan has no personal experience about separation or concern for this level of attachment, since to the best of our knowledge he doesn't even remember knowing his mother.

 

Anakin was also quite a bit older than usual when he was accepted for training, as was made clear in TPM. If he'd met Padme as an infant or very young child there probably wouldn't have been an issue.

 

I wonder if a factor in training Anakin despite the red flags was so the Sith would not get a hold of him. They did eventually of course.

 

@Jedi Knight Fett
Anakin never said he likes dictatorships. We know he doesnt believe the system works (he ain't wrong) and we know he believes that a powerful and wise leader should be the one to make decisions about "doing the right thing" if the Senate won't. Yes, Anakin does have authoritarian views, but since he grew up as a slave where even Padme was surprised that slavery would be allowed at all, and Anakin hanging out with Palpatine, was it expected that Anakin would say "Man, I hope one day a Rebel Alliance will break out to fight the evils of imperialism." I hope that wasnt an expectation people had for the young Darth Vader.

Also, notice the slight smirk Anakin gives Padme when he says, "Well if it works." And when she becomes serious, he breaks. At this point, Anakin is definitely jesting around with Padme about it. Anakin obviously doesnt think about dictators that can rule the Republic. "I don't know" is his response when Padme asks "Who will make them?" Obviously, the audience can infer Palpatine, but Anakin isnt thinking that deep about political discourse.

 

I always thought he passed it off as a joke when he realized she was offended.

 

That can be interepted, but he didnt look too serious when he said "Well, if it works" because if he was, he would be pretty stupid to think she would agree

 

I should have said I always thought "maybe" but the thing is, he is joking about it, which means he is thinking about it, and he does think a strong leader is a good idea. The whole galaxy has been hornswaggled into buying some level of "strong leadership" since the Trade Federation had the audacity to invade a highly developed planet.

 

For me, the biggest change is while Anakin grew up in years, his maturity never came with his age. Yes, he was exceptionally gifted, and in the real world, arrogance to some degree would be expected, and accepted. In this case, the arrogance is not accepted, and is born of someone who is not following his teachings. Anakin has become entitled and as a result, has become greedy, as well as petulant in that he has tantrums whenever he doesn't get his way. Again, failing to follow his teachings.

 

Thank you to everyone who contributed their insights!

This is one of the things that puzzles me about Anakin's learning - he seems truly clueless about some basic notions that should be easy to understand once one has encountered them for the first time, despite having been a Jedi Padawan for ten years.

You make an interesting point that Anakin's life as a slave may also have been sheltered in its own way (perhaps different from the usual usage).

From Clones and Sith, I actually had the impression that the Jedi tried not to discuss the Chosen One prophecy publicly (it's never mentioned in Anakin's presence in Clones and Sith, until Obi-Wan reflects at the end of his battle with Anakin how differently things seem to have turned out from what he had thought would be the case, and when it's mentioned in Clones and Sith it's always between Obi-Wan and Council members). Though, I imagine that Qui-Gon having mentioned it in Anakin's presence was enough to do the damage. I don't think that the Jedi still mistrusted Anakin and were afraid of his power after Anakin had been a Jedi for ten years - I think as time went on their concern for him was primarily the same type of concern that would extend to any Jedi Padawan.

Very interesting observation!

My experience with truly outstanding youth is that they tend to be able to seize up their situation fairly accurately and quickly, and take action before a situation has deteriorated too greatly. Of course, this is a general description, and there are always exceptions.

I like this!

That's true. One can see when Obi-Wan turns his head aside temporarily that he's searching for suitable words to calm Anakin, and no good suggestion comes to mind.

Both yours and Deliveranze's interpretations have seemed plausible to me, though I probably side more with yours. I even wonder whether a plausible interpretation is that Anakin was floating the idea of "Well, if it works" (although I don't believe that he was sold on it), and had already prepared a backup plan to pass it off as a joke if Padmé was offended (notice how the viewer is unable to see Anakin's first reaction to Padmé's words that it sounds like a dictatorship to her because his face is turned away from the viewer).

Exactly! For me, the biggest surprise in Clones is the enormity of the gap between Anakin's current progress and how far he should be capable of reaching given his raw talent (although another perspective could be that this foreshadows his eventual fall to the dark side), even given the impact of his childhood as a slave - I'd say that he is only halfway to what he ideally could be at that age. Skills-wise, he may really be ahead of Obi-Wan, but he is lacking in other qualities needed to become an outstanding Jedi Knight, and I doubt most of it is his Master's fault - the viewer knows how hard Obi-Wan has been trying to iron out Anakin's flaws. I wonder if it took killing the Tusken Raiders, losing an arm or the awareness that he had broken the prohibition against marriage for Anakin to realise that he needed to mature, which he then rapidly does in three years, as one sees in Sith. Contrast this with Obi-Wan, who always pushed himself to achieve all of his potential.

 

The thing is, he never truly matured. At least not for his age and life experiences. In ROTS, while Anakin has matured from AOTC, he still carries a sense of entitlement, still has the same greedy nature, and his petulance hasn't subsided. Case in point when he has a fit for not understanding the council's position of not making him a master simply because Palps wants him on the council. Then after, and only after does he realize his error.

 

Yes, he's matured a lot from Clones to Sith, but indeed insufficiently for the situations that he will be thrown into, unfortunately. He's lost up some of that sense of entitlement, greed and petulance, but what remains of it still surfaces when it concerns matters he holds very close to heart, and it's exactly that which Palpatine is able to play upon.

 

Exactly!!!