PT Analysis of Mace Windu's plan to overthrow Palpatine

That novel is great. Works great as the middle chapter of the DARK LORD trilogy too.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Dark_Lord_Trilogy
I would also suggest reading STAR WARS ON TRIAL.
https://starwarsfans.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars_on_Trial

 

I disagree. The book makes it look more like Ani is mentally ill (like the ending part where Ani and "Vader" have a conversation) than that he had exploitable character weaknesses and was conned, which goes against a lot of the OT reasoning. And the idea that Kenobi had to quickly flee Mustafar because Palpatine's ship was arriving is pretty ludicrous.

 

Despite my first post here some four years ago, I actually think Mace was justified even if he was aiming to kill the Chancellor.


Regarding the book vs film, I agree that the book went into detail about Anakin's turn, but that was mainly because it had more room to explore Anakin's internal thoughts compared to the film (often using the dragon motif).
In the book, Anakin's character weaknesses are still heavily prominent (Obi-Wan: "Because he knows I would do the same for him"), I don't necessarily think it took away the film's interpretation of his fall.

 

I thought the novel was ludicrous in its way. I never needed it to understand why Anakin had turned. I thought the movie made it pretty clear. And the idea of painting Anakin as "mentally ill" was cheap and easy to me.

 

@Samuel Vimes
Good thoughts there! About Mace: Well, I imagine the second greatest swordsman in the galaxy would be able to cut off Palpatine's hands even if he doesn't hold them out
Or maybe not. Anakin, who's also extremely skilled, managed it with Dooku because he got close enough to grab his arms. Either way, as you say, he could probably injure the man in some way.

About the rebels fighting the system: I don't think they're wrong. The Empire is a totalitarian regime and must be opposed. (In the end, though, I believe that reconciliation should be the goal, not just crushing the enemy, as surviving enemies are likely to strike back some day. This is a discussion best suited for a different thread, but I feel that the third trilogy should've gone for a peaceful resolution to the galactic conflict, to make it more final and actually add something valuable to the Saga.)

It can be argued that in the scene with Mace, the Republic had already become an empire and if Palpatine had been arrested, he would likely have wormed his way out of it and still turned the people against the Jedi (and then become Emperor). Mace and the Jedi Order were in a no-win situation at that point.
I guess I'm talking more about the moral dilemma; the spiritual side of things. If we lose faith in what we stand for and want to believe in, then it will be truly lost.
Maybe killing the Chancellor would have solved a lot of problems, but at what cost? We can only guess, but we do know that the Jedi were changing due to the influence of the dark side. They grew arrogant and, as this scene proves, aggressive. If they'd won through aggression, what would that have meant for the Order in the future?
Even with the Sith gone, they might have destroyed the Jedi in the long run.

As for Luke: Yes, he acted in the moment, motivated by his refusal to follow in his father's footsteps, but in so doing, he walked the true Jedi path. He may or may not have been conscious of this as he was doing it, but it was in his subconscious... and he most definitely learned what it means to be a Jedi through that experience.

Most importantly, these events show us in the audience the difference between the dark side and the light. And give us tons of stuff to debate

 

It was still risky for Luke. I mean, how did he know Vader would even turn? For all he knew, Vader was too deep in the Dark Side to push through that fog.

 

He didn't know. He had hope, because he knew there was still good in him, but no one knew if he would actually turn back.

 

The Sith used to rule the galaxy and based on what Mace said and what we see in the OT, it was not pleasant. Mace used the word "oppression".
So it would be a matter of known history what the Sith rule used to be like.
So if history has the Sith rule as a Tyranny then the rest of the galaxy would see their return as not good.

Also, the Sith were involved with the TF and their actions with Naboo. True Nute got off but people would know that the TF worked with the Sith in the invasion of Naboo and the crimes they did there.
The same TF are part of the seps, so known Sith goons are working with the seps and a fallen Jedi, now a Sith, Dooku. So to the public, at least those in the republic that are opposed to the seps, the sith are the bad guys.
Palpatine in RotS called Dooku as Sith Lord, so his identity as a Sith seemed to be known.

So the seps are lead by a Sith Lord. So if Palpatine can be proven to be a Sith Lord, one could ask how since the Jedi only have Anakin's word, that would paint Palpatine as an enemy. The Sith always work in pairs so Dooku and Palpatine were working together. So all the crimes that could be laid at Dooku's feet would also fall on Palpatine. Again, if he could be proven to be a Sith.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Yoda is one of the oldest characters and he wasn’t even alive….in fact he was born over 200 years later when the Sith became extinct.

All of it has become Legends. No one was even alive when this “supposed Sith had an empire”. I mean even people today are denying that the Holocaust ever happened and that wasn’t even 100 years ago. Han Solo who was like 10 years removed from ROTS didn’t even believe in the Jedi and the Force in Episode 4.

So most likely that Sith Evil Empire are nothing but legends over a 1000 years later.

And TF knows of the Sith but they don’t the whole machinations of them …most of them weren’t alive…nevertheless that is why they were wiped out after dealing with them. The Sith word wasn’t even used post PT. It’s just plain Empire. Only by a few who were Force Sensitives like Luke and Maz Kanata on the ST.

They were up against Dooku who was a well known Jedi….who apparently is a “Sith” now, says the Jedi.

Mentioning the Sith is like saying in modern Earth times that yeah we are under attack by the Clan of Osiris …remember them??? The old Clan in the Egyptian Empire who worshiped Osiris?? Oh and our President Biden is the leader of them!! We can’t be ruled by the evil Egyptian empire ever again!! We must convict him!!

Nah…all they care about is the present danger which is the Separatists lead by a SUPPOSEDLY FORMER Jedi named Dooku. The only Force Users they know their whole lives were the Jedi.

 

The Roman Empire has not been around for over 1500 years and yet quite a few today knows about it and not as a "myth" or "legend" but as historical fact
Julius Ceasar was killed over 2000 years ago and yet there are people that know about him.
And there was that guy from Nazareth who started a religion about 2000 years ago and that is quite well known today.

Attila the Hun, Djingis Khan, Alexander the Great, Archimedes, Socrates and so on. Alla lived quite a long while ago and yet they are known. Not as myths like King Arthur but as historical figures.

Nothing in the PT establishes that people don't know about the Sith or view them as a myth.
Sidious mentions "Not for a Sith" to the TF people and they don't go "Who?". Or act like the Sith are some fable.
Palpatine calls Dooku a Sith Lord in front of two Jedi and neither of them react to that. Like, "How do you know about the Sith?"

Again, the TF don't treat the Sith as some kind of myth come to life. They didn't know what the Sith were planning true but during the four trials that Nute went through, the involvement of the Sith would have come up. So the general public would be aware that the TF worked with the Sith.

Again, Palpatine calls Dooku a Sith Lord in front of Anakin and Obi-Wan, establishing that Dooku is a known Sith. If that was not common knowledge, why would Palpatine tip his hand like that?

So the films don't establish that the general public view the Jedi with distrust, that they think that the Jedi are working with Dooku. The Jedi are out on the front, fighting Dooku's forces.
The films also don't establish that the general public don't know about the Sith or view them as a myth as the word is used in front of or by non-Jedi.

The Old Republic has been around for about 20-25 000 years so in it's history, 1000 years ago is not that far back. And since there are species that can live centuries, like Yoda's species, then there could be people that knew and talked to people that were alive when the Sith ruled last time.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

To add to the Roman Empire example, the Byzantine Empire (the Eastern half of the Roman empire) fell in 1453. 568 years ago. In the wider span of human history, the end of the Roman Empire in its entirety (as in, not when it was united, not its eastern version) is actually very close to us. To put it simply, 39 years after the fall of Byzantium, Columbus would sail across the ocean to what is now the Bahamas. This man was born two years before the fall. His parents would've known the existence of Byzantium/Eastern Roman Empire. They might have even met citizens of that empire back when it was still a thing. The same applies to Leonardo da Vinci, who was born just a year before its fall.

So yes, I wouldn't doubt that there'd still be people alive during the Prequels who were aware of a time the Sith once ruled. Sure, the vast majority might not be learnt scholars. But then, most of us aren't learnt scholars of Roman history yet we are aware through schooling that there was once a time when the Roman Empire was a thing. Even if all we know of it is from Shakespeare's play and 'Et Tu, Brute?'

The only reason for any shock/surprise would be if we somehow discovered that the Byzantine/Eastern Roman Empire was still alive to this day on some remote island far away from human contact. It'd be less 'we thought the Roman Empire was a myth' and more 'We thought they were destroyed centuries ago!'

 

My opinion was that it was poorly conceived and written.

Sent from my SM-T720 using Tapatalk

 

You can’t really compare the Roman Empire because almost everything we use like Catholicism, Calendars all the way on how to govern today is from the Roman Empire. The word Sith was never even mentioned except during by the Jedi and the Sith themselves.

The whole Jedi Council looked at Qui-Gonn with disbelief when he first mentioned the Sith. And that’s the Jedi…imagine saying that to Joe Public.

Palpatine knows the Sith because the Jedi told him. As a Chancellor, The Jedi has to tell him who can be behind this.

The TF knows they are Sith because Sidious told them who they are dealing with. They were even like …oh no!! Now there’s 2 of them!! So it’s not common knowledge that they travel in 2.

The Republic Senate never once mentioned we must stop the resurgence of the Sith. All they mentioned was that the Separatists must be stopped.

Like I said before, Han Solo was alive during the PT….yet he thinks the Jedi and the Force are just tricks and nonsense. Laughs at Luke trying to be a Jedi Knight. Han has been telling them that he’s been around the universe and he has seen no evidence of the Force. And that was ONLY 18 years after the Jedi were protecting the galaxy.

Grand Moff Tarkin mentions that Vader is the LAST OF THIS RELIGION. Making the Jedi so passé and not even mentioning the Sith. And that was ONLY 18 years after the Jedi were protecting the galaxy.

Only the Jedi were concerned about the Sith.

Even if we use the Roman analogy, it’s basically telling Earth people today that we have to convict and stop President Biden because he is really behind Hamas along with Russia and China as members of the old Roman Emperor Caligula’s Trinity.

 

I gave other examples, like Attila the Hun, Alexander the Great and so on.
My point is that here on Earth, events that happened 1000 or more years ago are not always looked as myths or legends, they are seen as historical facts.

So no reason not to think that the Sith empire is likewise an historical fact in the Old Republic.

We don't know what history classes are like in SW. What we do know is that the Sith used to rule the galaxy, they were thought to have all been killed 1000 years ago and while the Old Republic is older than that, 1000 years ago it might have been reformed/restructured. So history would be, Sith ruled the galaxy, apparently as tyrants, they were overthrow and presumed killed and the Old Republic was reborn.
I would image that being something that people would know. Quite a few in the US knows the basics of the history of their country, and that is the case in many other countries as well. The founding of the country is often something that is celebrated and remarked.

No difference there. The Jedi and the public at large think the Sith are 1000 years dead. So someone telling them they are back would be viewed with hesitation.
You mentioned Tarkin, he scoffed at the idea that Obi-wan could be alive. Simply because he knew that the Jedi had been hunted to extinction and he figured that Obi-wan would be dead.

But the Sith being back are accepted by the Jedi as true at the end of TPM. One wonders how, they know little more than when Qui-Gon briefed them. All they know after Naboo is that Maul killed Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan killed him. They don't even have a name.

We know that Nute went through several trials so the events on Naboo would be known, as would the TF working with the Sith. Who used to rule the galaxy and were not nice people.

Where in the film is this shown? That Palpatine only knows because the Jedi told him?
Why would the Jedi not inform the senate that the people that ruled the galaxy with an iron fist are back?

The film does show Palpatine use the title Sith Lord and nothing was odd about this.
Thus your argument that the Sith are not generally known is not supported by the films.

How many today knows that Rome had a Senate and how many of them could give the number of senators in the Roman Senate?

Knowing about the Sith and knowing their specific MO are not the same thing.

And again, at no point do the PT films present the Sith as mythical creatures that the general public don't know about or only knows as fairy tales.
They are presented as historical fact.

The Senate also never mentioned that they suspect that the Jedi are in league with Dooku or that they doubt what the Jedi say about him. Yet you argue along these lines.
The Jedi are never viewed with suspicion until after Palpatine declares them traitors by the senate or the public at large.

Also, in AotC, that Dooku had turned to the Dark Side was not known until after Geonosis. So no one in the senate could say anything about that. In RotS, I think the first time we see inside the senate is when Palpatine creates his Empire.

Two Rebel characters use the phrase "May the Force be with us/you." Both in in ANH and RotJ.
Kind of like a blessing. So the Force is not forgotten.
Han's viewpoint is just his, he is also a bit of a cynic.
Even after Luke manages to block the bolts with the visor down, Han tries to shrug it off.
And later, Han uses that same phrase, "May the Force be with you."
So he does have some faith.

Also, the Jedi have been hunted to extinction and Tarkin would be aware of how long it has been since any Jedi was active. So him thinking that Vader is the last Jedi makes sense.
Plus, that the Emperor was a Sith seemed to not be known in the OT.
Does the public at large know that in RotS? Not to my knowledge.

Proof?

No, because the Old Republic is far older. Around 20-25 000 years. So in it's history, 1000 years ago is not that long.
Also, the Old Republic has had space travel and advanced tech for a really long time.
Plus the Sith have Force Powers, that makes them powerful and way more of a threat than Caligula.

So a better analogy would be a worry that the Black Death could be back.
Scientist knows that some diseases can come and go. Be gone for a long while and then come back, even more deadly.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Ok we both really don’t know how the SW Universe really teaches their history. We can only go by the movies.

We do know that even Luke didn’t know about the Force or it’s existence until Obi-Wan told him. And that was ONLY 18 years after the Jedi we’re doing their galactic defending. You can say Tatooine is a remote planet, BUT even Anakin who was a slave on Tatooine during the Jedi Era knows about the famous Jedi and their laser swords.

Luke, Han, and even Tarkin sees the Jedi are RELICS and that was only 18 years after they became EXTINCT.

All I’m saying is 1000 years are a lot of years, decades, and centuries to be gone in the public eye.

If we can think of OLD EVIL Empires on our timeline…let’s say… The Mongolian Empire is back and they are being lead secretly by President Biden who has been behind all the wars in the Middle East.

Except for the conspiracy theorists, Most people would think that’s crazy.

Well that’s what the people in the SW would also think about Palpatine and the Sith.

 

Right, but Samuel’s point is that thinking that someone from a long time ago is dead doesn’t equal ‘we think they’re a myth’.

For example, if we were to find out tomorrow that the Byzantine Empire was still around, on a remote landmass, and the great Fall of Byzantium of 1453 wasn’t really the end… of course we’d think it was crazy-talk. Why wouldn’t we? We thought Byzantium was gone for centuries.

And if we were told that Biden was the current emperor of Byzantium and he was planning to use the full might of the US army to re-take Istanbul/Constantinople, Turkey, and all former territories of Byzantium… Uh yeah, we’d be thinking the person had a few screws loose in their head.

Yet that doesn’t mean Byzantium is some mythical empire. It existed. Even if we don’t know the complicated details of that empire, we know it existed. It’s even in our vernacular when we describe something that’s stupidly complicated and requiring a lot of administrative work: “It’s so byzantine.”

Essentially: Thinking that someone or something that died long ago isn’t really back because of course they’re not — they’re dead…doesn’t mean thinking that dead someone/something is pure myth.

EDIT: As far as your examples.

Tarkin and Vader both work for the Empire, which I am sure made damn sure to purge any knowledge of the Jedi from the history books. Tarkin, in particular, isn’t going to respect the Jedi to defend their existence. This also explains why both Han and Luke never heard of the Jedi or the Force. Plus, Han’s not exactly a religious/introspective person. He’s focused on what’s right in front of him and a blaster by his hip. He really doesn’t care about the Jedi anyway. Even if he did hear of them, he probably thinks they’re just complete loons which he made very clear to both Ben and Luke.

 

Who was Luke raised by?
Owen and Beru and Owen we know was very anti Obi-Wan and he lied to Luke about what his father really did.
So no wonder Luke has not been told about the Force or the Jedi.
You say school?
The Empire is in control of the galaxy and they would be doing all they could to suppress knowledge about the Jedi. Painting them as traitors and frauds.
Han is presented as a cynic and yet, as I've said, even he says "May the Force be with you" to Luke in ANH.
And as I've also mentioned, there are rebel leaders that use that phrase.
So the knowledge of the Force is not gone.
Tarkin did not see the Jedi as figments of imagination or myths, he saw them as all dead, because the Empire had been hunting them down for years. He realized that he was wrong.

There has not been a Pharao in Egypt for over 1000 years and yet there are people that know what that is.
Alexander the Great has been dead for over 2000 years and yet some people know about him.
Siddhartha Gautama has also been dead for over 2000 years and yet there are some that know about him.

So there are plenty of examples of events, things and people that are very old and yet are known to the general public.
Thus no reason to think that Sith is unknown to the general public in SW.

Again, I ask for movie proof of this. You make the claim, you back it up.

The Sith are a matter of historical record, they used to rule the galaxy, not very nicely it seems.
They were thought to be all dead but at the end of TPM, the Jedi know this is not so.
Nute Gunray, who worked with the Sith, went to trial, so his involvement with said sith would also become known.
We have Palpatine call Dooku a Sith Lord, showing that Dooku's allegiance to the Sith to be known.

To sum up, at no point are the sith presented as fairy tales or figments of imagination. Their historical existence is never once doubted. Their current existence is doubted because they were assumed to be all dead. Tarkin assumed that Obi-Wan was dead, he was wrong. The Jedi also leran that they were wrong and the Sith are in fact back. And as Palpatine uses the title, it shows that not only the Jedi knew that the sith are back.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

When did I say they are figments??? If I did then I mis spoke. I’m saying the modern Sith could be different from the old Sith empire that practically NO ONE HAD EVER EXPERIENCED.

All I’m saying there’s A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 18 years which Jedi are extinct and 1000 years where Sith were extinct.

Yoda wasn’t even born yet. So MOST PEOPLE OR MOST LIKELY NO ONE IN THE GALAXY HAS NOT experience the Sith Empire.

And the Modern Sith is as SECRETIVE AS EVER. Oh look ….The EVIL Trade Federation says they exist and are evil….so everyone should BELIEVE THEM.

There’s no need for proof in the movie….just plain common sense….if you put the same situation in REAL WORLD…like The evil Mongolian Empire which is in HISTORICAL Record like the Sith and say that Hamas like the TF worked for them and then Hamas say their true leader is President Biden….the United Nations would react the same way as the Galactic Senate to Palpatine.

 

I haven’t read any of the novels surrounding this but I agree fully that Anakin being mentally ill isn’t working. The films made it very clear why he turned. Sure, a little more exposition is always welcome in any film with a major character and their journey but the films spell it all out and his turn shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone watching.

 

So to use my Byzantine example.

It’d be like if we found out the Byzantine Empire was still around, but operating in secret and in a different way than what it used to do and oh look, Biden is their emperor/puppet leader.

Is that what you’re trying to say?

EDIT: I’ve been listening to ‘History of Byzantium’ podcast (well worth a listen for anyone into that period, I highly recommend) lately so that’s why I’m using Byzantium. xD

 

Pretty much. But don’t really know if the Byzantine Empire has a bad rap as much as the Mongolian Empire.

Most people are more concerned about the Separatists rather than the Ancient Secret Order of the Sith.

The only Senator that mentioned the word Sith was Padme and that’s in front of a Jedi.

Palpatine also mentioned it in front of the Jedi saying that the Jedi must get help because the Sith are more powerful than the Jedi. More of a backhanded suggestion to the Jedi.

Never once Palpatine told the whole galaxy that “To Counter the Sith Resurgence…I will create a GRAND ARMY OF THE REPUBLIC” OR “Since Dooku is dead Grevious will take over the Droid Army and the Sith will never stop.”

They are going up against Dooku a known former Jedi who is allegedly a Sith leading the Separatists.

In Earth, most people are more concerned about Hamas instead of the Mongolian Empire who are secretly back and controlling them. And yup Biden is the true leader. Good luck convincing the United Nations about that.

 

You keep using Han and Luke and ignore Dodonna, who uses "May the Force be with you." Ackbar says much the same thing in RotJ. Showing that not everyone has forgotten about the Force.

You have argued that the senate/the general public think think that the Jedi are evil and are in league with the seps because Dooku is a former Jedi.
The films don't show this.
Dooku is a known Sith Lord, that is established.
Who and what the Sith are is also established.
They used to rule the galaxy, that is never presented as a myth or legend.
It was apparently not pleasant.
So no the films gives no reason why the senate or public at large would blame the Jedi for the seps. Esp since the Jedi are the ones fighting and dying to stop the seps.
They would instead think the sith are behind the seps. At least in RotS.

You have no proof that the senate or public at large dismiss the sith as myths or not being involved in this.
Yes during TPM, the Jedi and others thought the Sith were all dead. They were wrong and they know they were wrong.

The TF would not say they worked with the Sith, the Jedi would say so. The Jedi know that Maul is a Sith at the end of TPM and was working with the TF.
Again, the sith being back was not in doubt after TPM.

Take WW1, I think that all soldiers that fought in WW1 are now all dead. So does that mean that the world don't think it happened? That we now have no way of knowing what trench warfare was like?
No. We do know that.
Dinosaurs have been extinct for millions of years and yet quite a few knows about them.

We know what the Black Death was like and if some scientist could show that the plague is back, some could be worried about that.

These show that the Sith being involved was known to people other than the Jedi.

In AotC, Dooku was not a known Sith for most of the film so Palpatine could not connect the seps with the sith.
In RotS, Palpatine talks about Griev to the Jedi, who know about the sith so why would he bring it up?

Lastly, the old Republic has been around for about 20-25 000 years, 1000 years is not that long ago given it's history. Also we know that there are races that live for centuries, ex Yoda's species. So Yoda did not live when the Sith ruled but his parents likely did. So he would have experience from people that lived during the sith empire.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I never said MYTH and if I did then I corrected it. And I never said The Force was forgotten…I was saying there’s a BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 18 years AND ONE THOUSAND YEARS.

I’m saying it’s easy for Palpatine to blame the Jedi in all of this.

The Sith is a SECRET ORGANIZATION and used the Separatists as their FRONT. The Sith were NEVER in front telling everyone they will control the galaxy…..no it’s the Separatists who started the war. Yeah of course WE KNOW BETTER BECAUSE WE ARE THE AUDIENCE.

If the Vikings who has been gone for centuries is said to be backing Taliban…..everyone will see the threat Taliban while paying less attention to the return of the Vikings.

The Sith was so fore front THAT YES PALPATINE EVEN SAID WE WILL BE REORGANIZE INTO THE NEW SITH EMPIRE!!!! LOL

The Sith wasn’t even mentioned in the CT.

The Rebellion never said….oh man now we are in for the Second Sith Rule!!! We have to stop this Sith Empire!!

The Sith was so secretive THAT ONLY A FEW KNOWS THAT Palpatine was the Dark Lord himself even when he became Emperor.

Even Dooku, the ALLEGED Sith even told Obi-Wan that he has TO JOIN DOOKU so they can STOP THE SITH.

Jango Fett dealt with Tyranus separating Dooku from the Sith either secretly or unknowingly.

 

It seemed full hardy, Windu behaved like Anakin ( all I hear is Yoda's voice saying, you are wreckess). After hearing Palpatine is Darth Sidious, I would think they would try to contact all Jedi, to return to the temple. Why have a Council, if Windu is just going to make one of the biggest decisions in history, on his own. They should have had a meeting, made some sort of strategy. Windu didn't even have a plan, he barged into his office to arrest or kill the Supreme Chancellor. Even if killed Palpatine, he would be arrested and the Jedi Counsel would have been banished or hunted down by the Republic. Killing Palpatine would have scared every member of the Senate would do everything, to prevent the Jedi from executing them ( because if you can execute the Supreme Chancellor, you could execute anyone )

 

Well, some, but not all, of the Council had a brief holo-Zoom meeting, where they decided that Grevious being dead meant the war was over (not true) and that they must force Palpatine to give up his war powers or resign (not their call), and assume power themselves until they sort things out (utterly illegal). So, yes, Mace didn't exactly have much of a plan going in. And Yoda, beyond a quick word of warning, really did very little to head off such recklessness. All they really ended up doing was causing Palpatine to accelerate his own plan, somewhat.