PT Analysis of Mace Windu's plan to overthrow Palpatine

Yes Mace was angry, both at the death of his fellow Jedi and that Palpatine had tried to kill him.
Having someone try to kill you often don't make you very happy with that person.
Not sure that he wanted an excuse and the reason he gives makes no logical sense given that Mace knew that before he went to arrest Palpatine.
What might have worked is that Mace didn't think he could get Palpatine to a cell or that any cell could hold him. So he goes for the kill instead.

What happened in the film is Mace rushed in and was over his head. He did not know how bad things really where and only realized the Jedi were being setup once Anakin arrived. Mace knew Palps being a Sith made him dangerous, but he did not realize the full extent until the fight started, both polliltically and with the force. Most people require some sort of justification to kill since most normal people don't want to commit such a awful act. Mace was made convienced by Palps to think he was too dangerous to be kept alive as part of the setup.

When Anakin came into the room then I think that Palpatine was playing both him and Mace.
Earlier?
Not sure, I think that Palpatine did try to kill Mace in their fight and his loss of weapon was not planned.

I believe it was planned as he sense Anakin was arriving to intervene. As pointed out before, Palps was able to easily zap Mace a second after being so weak which implies he was faking it.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark[/quote]

 

Which is exactly why Palpatine chose to reveal himself as Sidious to Anakin just when he did. Dooku is dead. Grievous is dead. The Separatists are basically defeated with their military commander gone and the figure holding them together and giving them political legitimacy out of the picture. Palpatine is going to be forced to justify keeping hold of his ''emergency'' powers and there are enough sceptical and influential Senators around to make that a tricky prospect. So by instigating the ''Jedi Coup'' he can panic the corrupt Senate and yank the wool over collective eyes to force through the vote to make him permanent ruler.

With hindsight of course, Mace's actions were therefore exactly what Palpatine had hoped they would be, but Mace couldn't have known that going in.

 

It's a shame those two Jedi that were with Mace died .00078 seconds into the arrest attempt.

 

Except this explanation doesn't work either.
If Mace thinks that Palpatine's associates would sever their contacts with him once he was arrested then that applies equally to when he went to Palpatine's office as when he had disarmed him.
Mace learns nothing new in that regard during the fight. Oh Palpatine says he is the senate but that would be seen by Mace as a boast. Mace would not know how others would react to Palpatine's arrest, either before or after he went to his office.

What he does learn is just how powerful Palpatine is, that is what is new.

And just going over there and asking him to hand over his extra powers might have been the best plan.
Esp if they ask a few senators to come along. They say "We have good news for the chancellor, Griev is dead, the war is over, now things can go back to normal."
So they tell him this and ask, in accordance with his very public promise, that he would give up these extra powers once the war was over. If he flat out refuses, in the presence of many witnesses, that could weaken his position. Then Mace could withdraw and plan the next movie.

Mace learns nothing new about the political situation during his fight with Palpatine.
Unless you want to argue that Mace is so dumb that he totally forgot that Palpatine has a lot of political power when he went off to his office to arrest him and only now remembers.

What he does learn that is new is just how powerful Palpatine is. Anakin warned him and he brushed it off. And he learned that Palpatine will not come quietly, he is resisting arrest.

[/quote][/QUOTE]

As I've said, once Anakin arrives, Palpatine is playing weak and is manipulating both him and Mace.
Before? Palpatine took out his saber and attacked Mace and the other Jedi and I think he was trying to kill all of them. He killed three but Mace was able to knock him back. But the arrival of Anakin allowed him an out.
If Anakin had not arrived then Palpatine would have tried harder to kill Mace, if that would have worked or not is unclear.

@The_Phantom_Calamari

Your argument sounds not unlike Ra's al Ghul in Batman Begins when he says that Gotham is beyond saving and must be destroyed.

It also sounds very defeatist, that the problems are too big to solve so we should just do nothing.
An approach that assures that the problems won't be solved.

And in the case of the Jedi, doing nothing will be as bad or worse. With the power Palpatine has and how the senate accept what he says, he can do order 66 at anytime and make up whatever lie he wants to.
So inaction won't save the Jedi, it will surely doom them.

What they might have been able to do is to evacuate the temple and hide their members in the far reaches of the galaxy. At least that way some Jedi would survive.

In Babylon 5, the heroes learn that warships are on their way to arrest them and take over the station on orders from the President. They can submit, be arrested and loose all hope or they can fight.
If they fight they will be branded as traitors and if they loose, they will get executed. But fighting was their only hope of saving the situation. Had they did what you suggest, they would have lost.

Sometimes you have no easy answers, no simple way to solve the problem, just a variety of bad options. But doing nothing when you know that this will be as bad or worse than doing something, that is not a solution.

Another example, Dr Who, "The beast below" As the Doctor said, three options;
One let the Star-whale continue in unendurable agony for hundreds more years.
Two, kill everyone on this ship.
Three, murder a beautiful and innocent creature as painlessly as he could.

All bad options and yet he was prepared to act, knowing it would cost him.
Thankfully, he didn't have to as there was another option.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

May I ask a question?

OK, the original idea was to go to Palpatine's office and tell him, "Grevious is dead. The war is over. Step down now, or be removed." My question is, how is the war over?

Yes, Grevious is dead, but the battle was still going on. As we saw during Order 66, the war was continuing all over the galaxy. And I really don't see the Seperatists just quitting now. That's be like, during World War II, Japan surrendering when Adm. Yamamoto was killed, or the U.S. giving up when FDR died. More likely, the Seps would just appoint a new military commander and the war goes on.

So, once again, Palpatine outwitted everybody. He'd gotten the Jedi so desperate to remove him and save the Republic that they decided to move against him at the earliest possible opportunity, even though it wouldn't hold up legally. All they were left with was the allegation that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, and they only had that at the last minute, and hadn't gotten any real, court-worthy evidence yet. And there's no evidence that Palpatine was thisclose to declaring himself Emperor; that only happened after the arrest party turned into a hit squad and he knew he had to move before reinforcements arrived.

Your thoughts on this?

 

The difference between the seps and these other examples is that these real world examples are quite de-centralized. There are many people at the top and if one dies, others can take over.
The US has a VP and the joint chiefs.

The seps, as presented in the films, are very centralized. One or two people in charge.
You have Dooku, Griev and the seps leader, Nute and co.
This third group have apparently very little say in the war. Griev just ships them off to Mustafar to be kept safe. They do very little it seems.
Dooku and Griev were the ones who gave orders and made strategic and tactical plans.
With both of them dead, the seps armies are leaderless.
Also droids, which are the bulk of the seps forces, are far less independent and rely on a central command.

Yes the fighting won't stop immediately but the seps armies have now no one that gives them orders on what to do next. No one that is in charge of fleet movements or army deployment.

Several times in the film is the death of Griev connected with the end of the war. Yes Palpatine suggested it but the Jedi do know how the seps operate and the importance of Griev.
If he could be instantly replaced then their acceptance of this makes no sense.

The war wouldn't end this instant but the seps forces would be crippled and all that remains is mop up. Also, I think that Obi-wan overheard where the seps leader were sent to. So assuming he would not have order 66 to deal with. He could send a force to arrest them and this would make the war end even quicker.

Bye for now.
Mr "Insert-Name-Here."

 

Or the Seps just hire some other mercenary to take charge. And I have to figure there's some chain of command; I doubt Grevious was giving orders to each individual unit.

 

The war was essentially over already. The invasion of Coruscant and the kidnapping of the Chancellor was a Hail Mary pass by a Separatist Alliance which knew it was on the verge of being routed. You get the impression they mustered all their forces together for one last-ditch, all-out effort which could not fail, analogous to the Rebels' attack on the second Death Star. Unfortunately, whereas the Rebels succeeded by managing to take out the leader of the opposition army, the Separatists ended up failing (by design, of course), which is the one thing they couldn't do.

After that failure, the Separatist Council was reduced to fleeing with their tails behind their legs and cowering in hiding on a craphole lava planet. The only reason they were still holding on at all was because they still had one brilliant commander left after Dooku's death. Bu take Grievous out, and all those tenuously fastened threads come loose, and everything starts to fall apart. Anakin's assassination of the Separatist Council and deactivation of the droid army vastly accelerated the process, but it would have happened eventually anyway after Grievous was killed.

The primary utility in achieving Grievous's swift elimination was so that the Jedi would be able to convince the Senate that victory was indeed a foregone conclusion. And of course it would also have the benefit of making the Separatist Alliance's death throes throughout the coming months shorter, less intense, and easier to deal with.

 

[/QUOTE]

As I've said, once Anakin arrives, Palpatine is playing weak and is manipulating both him and Mace.
Before? Palpatine took out his saber and attacked Mace and the other Jedi and I think he was trying to kill all of them. He killed three but Mace was able to knock him back. But the arrival of Anakin allowed him an out.
If Anakin had not arrived then Palpatine would have tried harder to kill Mace, if that would have worked or not is unclear.

It is clear Palps was faking being weak, as soon as Anakin cut Mace hand off, Palps magically recovered and easily zapped the hell out of Mace when a mere second before he was exhausted and helpless, this implies he was faking. Also didn't Palps lose his weapon after Anakin landed, he could have sensed him arriving. Palps was holding back on Mace in order to manipulate Anakin. 8

@The_Phantom_Calamari

Your argument sounds not unlike Ra's al Ghul in Batman Begins when he says that Gotham is beyond saving and must be destroyed.

It also sounds very defeatist, that the problems are too big to solve so we should just do nothing.
An approach that assures that the problems won't be solved.

And in the case of the Jedi, doing nothing will be as bad or worse. With the power Palpatine has and how the senate accept what he says, he can do order 66 at anytime and make up whatever lie he wants to.
So inaction won't save the Jedi, it will surely doom them.

The issue is Palps setup the whole situation as a self fulfilling prophecy, by acting the Jedi helped to fulfill their own doom. Mirroring how Anakin trying to prevent Padme's death caused it.

What they might have been able to do is to evacuate the temple and hide their members in the far reaches of the galaxy. At least that way some Jedi would survive.

In Babylon 5, the heroes learn that warships are on their way to arrest them and take over the station on orders from the President. They can submit, be arrested and loose all hope or they can fight.
If they fight they will be branded as traitors and if they loose, they will get executed. But fighting was their only hope of saving the situation. Had they did what you suggest, they would have lost.

Sometimes you have no easy answers, no simple way to solve the problem, just a variety of bad options. But doing nothing when you know that this will be as bad or worse than doing something, that is not a solution.

Another example, Dr Who, "The beast below" As the Doctor said, three options;
One let the Star-whale continue in unendurable agony for hundreds more years.
Two, kill everyone on this ship.
Three, murder a beautiful and innocent creature as painlessly as he could.

All bad options and yet he was prepared to act, knowing it would cost him.
Thankfully, he didn't have to as there was another option.

Perhaps you should learn from the Doctor then as he didn't acknowledge all of the available options like you often do in your arguments. Lucky for the Doctor that Amy realized there was a 4th option he dismissed despite being the correct option. (They show Doctor Who here in the states).

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor[/quote]

 

The war definitely was over because Grievous AND Dooku were both dead (as Sidious intended.) Dooku could hold the Separatist cause together through charisma and political influence, Grievous could bully and scare them into line, but with both of them dead there's going to be a lot of contenders for the throne whilst the Alliance is still united, even if the Senate itself is still squabbling. It might take a while, it might mean a few more battles along the way, but there's only one side realistically going to win now. If Anakin had turned earlier then he might have been used as Palpatine's new proxy to drag the war out a bit longer but other than that they're in a terminal decline.

 

I think you are describing your own argument here, not mine.
Your argument is that Mace's understanding of the political situation changes drastically between entering Palpatine's office and standing over him, wanting to kill him.

My argument is that Mace doesn't learn anything new about the political situation in that time.
All you offer is Palpatine's taunt "I am the senate." Which is not very relevant.
a) as Mace would view as a boast and b) even after saying that, Mace is still in arrest mode.

Before going to Palpatine's office, Mace knew;
That Palpatine was chancellor of the Republic.
That he had been granted many extra powers by the senate.
That he had strong support from many senators as they kept giving him more and more power.
That he controls the courts. In AotC they mention that Nute went through four trials and still got off.
Nute was working with the Sith before and still is. So since Palpatine is the hidden Sith Master they have been looking for, Mace would know that Palpatine has considerable influence over the courts.

All of this he knows before going to arrest Palpatine and yet he was going to arrest him. Even after the death of three Jedi and trying to kill Mace and Palpatine saying his is the senate, Mace is STILL going for an arrest.
He only changes his mind AFTER Palpatine has unleashed his lighting on him.
So I don't think it is far fetched to say that the Force lightning is what changed Mace's mind because that is what the film SHOWS.

Also you invent quite a lot of things yourself.
You said;

Where is your evidence for this? You are just speculating here.

My response is that this speculation still doesn't make sense.
The reason is that Mace has not had any time to talk to any senators and hear what they say about the charges against Palpatine. He has not made the charges known to the senate and seen that the senate won't act.
So as a reason to go from arrest to kill, it doesn't work. Mace knows nothing more about how the senate would view Palpatine after these charges when he was looking to kill Palpatine than he did earlier.
Unless your argument is that all it takes is for Palpatine to say "I am the senate" and then Mace would instantly go "oh, I guess the senate won't listen to us, better kill him." Because as I've said, Mace still tried to arrest Palpatine after this.

Had he made these accusations known and seen that the senate didn't take them seriously, then that would give him a reason to act judge, jury and executioner. Because then he KNOWS that the senate won't act.

More speculation, you don't know that Palpatine didn't try hard to kill Mace.

That Palpatine was faking when Anakin was in the room is clear. If he did so earlier is speculation.

Except not acting would not change anything.
Palpatine could do order 66 at any time and since the senate accepts anything he tells them, he could kill the Jedi and make up any story.
The main reason why he went through this is so he could get Anakin. But Anakin wasn't required to do his plan of killing the Jedi or make himself emperor. Anakin was just a bonus.

[/QUOTE]

You seem to have missed that the Doctor was not AWARE of the fourth option.
He didn't see it, Amy Pond saw it. The Doctor isn't infallible, he has companions to help him, to sometimes see things he doesn't see or to make him reconsider his choices.
To end the Time War, the War Doctor committed genocide and even when they were three Doctors, they were prepared to do it all over again. Only after he saw his companion cry did the Doctor realize that there was another option.

In any event, you seem to also have missed that this was a comment at the idea that inaction would be better. That isn't always the case and wasn't here.

As for learning, you complain that I at times speculate or assume things and yet you do that as well. So why are you complaining?

My argument is this;
Between entering Palpatine's office and deciding to kill him, Mace didn't learn anything new about the political situation. All he knows, he knew before going over there.
What he did learn that was new was just how powerful Palpatine was.
And since Mace switched from arrest to kill after a display of Palpatine Force power, I don't think it is farfetched to think that played into Mace's choice to kill Palpatine. Plus anger.

My only other point is that I think that it might have made more sense for Mace to use Palpatine's power in the Force as the excuse to kill him, not his political power as I've said before, he already knew that.

Simple as that.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

It's nothing like that, actually. Ra's al Ghul thinks society is beyond saving and wants to destroy society. I am not advocating destruction of any sort, as I'm not a nihilistic sociopath. What I'm suggesting is that if the only way to save a society lies in violating every one of that society's core principles, then of course that society has failed. Of course it has. It has nothing to do with Mace's actions, because they won't have any impact any way at that point. So at the very least he should have done the right thing instead of the wrong thing. I don't know about you, but I don't want to live in a society whose existence depends upon illegal assassinations and usurpations of power in coups.

What you're missing is that I don't think that was necessarily the case with the Republic. I think Mace should have left Palpatine's fate up to the democratic institutions of the Republic rather than taking justice into his own hands. Maybe the rot hadn't set in so deeply and maybe it wasn't too late. But by doing what he did, Mace himself assured that it was too late. He assumed the Republic he knew was already lost and so he rationalized that its principles didn't matter anymore, and in so doing he set in motion a chain of events that made that assumption into a certainty. It's yet another example of a self-fulfilling prophecy, a recurring motif in the prequels.

Adhering to moral principles that say you shouldn't assassinate a defenseless prisoner or depose a democratically elected leader without consulting the public is absolutely not the same as saying society is broken and must be destroyed. I can't even believe you suggested that. It relies on a false premise to begin with, the premise that at certain times you must betray democracy in order to save it. I don't believe that, because I believe democracy is strong enough to withstand any such threats to its existence using its own mechanisms. If it isn't, then you're not working with a democracy anymore, and yes, it's time to start over, like the Rebels did. But the Rebels weren't destroyers, they were avengers and rebuilders.

 

On the point about Mace realising the real battle was more relative to the struggle in Anakin and regarding the balance of the force, I think the novelisation and the film imply the opposite.

Mace is so caught up in the moment, firstly he forgets the prophecy dictates only Anakin can do what he is attempting, and secondly he doesn't truly see or understand Anakin's conflict, doesn't know how far in Anakin really is.

When he is killed in the novel it tellingly states "He had been so focused on Palpatine's shatterpoint he had failed to see Anakin's." This sums up the scene pretty well; only Palpatine can read Anakin like he does.
Mace realises in the last moments that Palpatine's shatterpoint is actually Anakin (some nice foreshadowing to ROTJ), and that Palpatine trusts Anakin, and this thought bewilders him.
Mace just never realised how bound Anakin and Palpatine were until Anakin cuts off his hand. Despite his suspicions of the boy, this took him completely by surprise.

Just my reading, but to me the scene is more tragic because Mace thought Anakin was backup.

 

If Mace believed Anakin was backup, then he would have not pleaded with him to not listen to Palps, this implies they were fighting over Anakin once he walked in. However, Mace also knew the bond between Anakin and Palps was strong as he told Yoda that they are too close. Though Anakin chose Palps more because of Padme then their bond IMO. The novelizations sometimes do deviate from the films, as Lucasfilm used to say, the films themselves are the clearest windows into the GFFA, the novelizations are little fuzzy windows, and so on. In other words they are more of being different interpretation than gap fillers.

Mace may have even believed Anakin, despite being the chosen one didn't have it in him to destroy the Sith, earlier in the film he expressed his doubts about Anakin to the other council Jedi. In which case Mace in the heat of the moment may have believed Anakin had already failed the Jedi for being indecisive about who to help and killing Palps right here and now was the last desperate chance to save the order, Anakin, and the force itself.

As for betrayal, we have to remember Palps has already betrayed the Republic, he is a illegitimate leader. The Jedi aren't leading a coup as so much as a forced impeachment which wasn't right but Palps placed the Jedi between a rock and a hard place.

 

See, I don't see this so much.
Look at Mace's "stay-back" hand gesture and expression when Anakin arrives. He is shocked to see him, but not angry. Anakin is an ally, Jedi don't tend to side with Sith Lords, even the Skywalker who Mace is weary of.
Earlier - "If what you have told me is true, you will have gained my trust." I think you can safely say Anakin's claim had been confirmed for Mace.

Mace is more focused on what Palpatine is doing than putting much focus on Anakin. Think of Palpatine turning his back on Vader to kill Luke at the end of ROTJ. It's like Anakin (to Mace) and Vader (to The Emperor) isn't even there.
"Don't listen to him Anakin!" is great advice in theory, but it still portrays that there is a schism between Mace and Anakin, it just isn't enough to reach him. "He is the traitor!" falls on deaf ears, although that fact is more on Anakin and Sidious.
Think about it, would Mace's reaction - attempting to kill Palpatine after the lightning - be any different if Anakin hadn't shown up? Mace is focused on the Jedi, the Republic, Palpatine, and himself. Anakin's internal conflict ranks after this.
Then look at Palpatine - everything he is doing is what needs to be done to turn Anakin. If Anakin wasn't going to show up he probably wouldn't have lost at all, he at least wouldn't bother to feign weakness.

"The oppression of the Sith will never return. You have lost!" - all for Palpatine's ears.
"I am going to end this once and for all!" "You can't! He must stand trial!" "He has control of the Senate's and the courts! He's too dangerous to be left alive." - Mace talks law to justify his actions, Palpatine gives Anakin the personal motivation, what he really wants to hear.

Mace turns his back to Anakin to kill Palpatine, and doesn't expect what is coming.

He is sceptical about the prophecy, but my reading is he is clearly not thinking about Anakin in this scene.
Yes, Palpatine was causing the imbalance, but Mace isn't looking outward, he is looking in.

I was talking more about Anakin betraying Mace actually, he stabs Mace in the back. Mace may have been a dick to him, but he still trusted Skywalker as a fellow Jedi. This is where Vader's betrayal really begins.

 

I don't think Mace was mad at Anakin when he arrived, but his arrival did alter the dyanmics of the fight. Mace knew Anakin was confused. Mace is a Jedi and he could sense Anakin's emotions and saw Palp was manipulating him which upped the ante.

If Anakin wasn't there for Mace and Palps, then neither would be pleading with him, this means both sre focusing on him. Palps is asking Anakin for help and Mace is saying don't help him, he is tricking you. Palp setup the whole scene to force Anakin to betray Mace and the Jedi. Anakin is the focus once he walks in. Comparing it to ROTJ is a bit of Apple to Orange. In ROTJ, Palp isn't interacting with Vader at all and is entirely focused on Luke, typical Sith behavior. However, Mace is a Jedi and both him and Palps are interacting with Anakin to join their side. While in ROTJ only Luke is pleading to his Father, while Palps is boasting at Luke, very different setup than the office in ROTS. ROTS is a 3 way confrontation while ROTJ was just a 2 way confrontation until Vader intervened.

It is hard to say what anybodies action would be if Anakin did not show up, as Palps engineered the confrontation to manipulate Anakin as he knew he would interfere to save Padme. Mace seems to be looking both inward and outward in the office fight. Palp was egging Mace the whole fight to put him in a bad light when Anakin shows up.

 

Palpatine played the Jedi for fools, knowing [or correctly guessing] what they would do, when they finally found out. Never forget that the reveal that Palpatine=Sidious was given to Anakin by Palps. He had waited for the right moment and there it was. Just as he threw the Jedi into a little tizzy in AOTC by telling/allowing Dooku to let Obi-Wan know the 'truth.' It's all part of that gigantic chess game for power he has going on. He knows Mace, he knows Yoda, he knows how the Jedi act and react to things like this. He is betting on them doing exactly what they did, and he was right. When the Jedi Council finds out their Force powers are diminished in AOTC, they could alert the Republic, but Palpatine is betting on them protecting themselves. He is betting they won't report anything, and they'll keep it secret. He bets right, just as he does all throughout the PT. This leaves the Republic, most of the Jedi, and the public at large with no warning. Which is exactly what Palpatine wants.

By the time of ROTS, when Mace finds out, Anakin is right where Palpatine wants him, and Palpatine knows that he's cornered both Mace and Anakin into unwinnable situations, forcing Anakin to fight Mace for Palpatine's life, to save Padme. Although of course I disagree with the notion of the Jedi taking control of the Senate/Republic, by the time of ROTS, I almost want to say it's too late for a lot of other practical alternatives. And that's the point. Palpatine knows that full well -- that's why he pushed them into this circumstance and did everything how he did it. He knows he has trapped them into doing horrible things just to escape their situation. At that point all the pieces are in place and you can bet Palpatine has backup plans even if he is killed (Order 66 comes to mind). The time for the Jedi to act was after TPM, during AOTC, or after AOTC. Any responses they made were way too slow and/or misguided. Honestly, by the time ROTS is there, tragedy is on the horizon, and Palpatine knows full well he's forced good people into horrible situations that will fully exploit their weaknesses. And that includes, most certainly, Mace Windu.

Palpatine knew the Jedi would be pushed to take extreme action against him. He even wanted them to. That would fit with the story he is ready to tell the galaxy, of his victimization at the hands of the Jedi insurgents, which justifies the creation of the Empire. Palpatine wants to get the Jedi to the point where they betray themselves. And he succeeds. The Jedi suggestion of overthrowing Palpatine/taking control of the Republic/Senate has the aura of desperation, of a Hail Mary pass for a really bad situation. I don't want to say it was a hopeless situation for the Jedi -- nothing is truly hopeless -- but it was getting pretty darn close by the time of ROTS. It's like being one or two turns away from being checkmated in chess, or down two touchdowns with 2 minutes left in the 4th quarter. You could win but the chances are running out fast. You've been getting beat the whole game, and the opponent knows your playbook. By the point of ROTS, the trap was in place, just waiting to be sprung.

 

@The_Phantom_Calamari

It is possible that I misread your argument and if so, I am sorry.
But from what you wrote I got the impression that you were advocating inaction as the best course.

Your line;

Suggested to me that you argued that the Jedi should not act at all against Palpatine.
They should just do nothing. Not try to arrest him or kill him, just sit there, arms folded.

That is what I didn't agree with. Inaction in this case would not have saved them or the republic.

And if we ponder the possibility that Mace HAD killed Palpatine, what then?

Suppose that Mace had killed Palpatine during their lightsaber fight.
Would that have violated the republic's principles?
Mace came to arrest Palpatine and Palpatine violently resisted arrest and got killed.

No doubt the situation would have been quite ugly and the Jedi would face many hard questions.
But would it be as bad or worse than what actually happened?
Twenty years of Sith tyranny and planetary genocide of Alderaan?

Yes trying to kill Palpatine, while possibly understandable, was not the right thing to do.
As I've said, going there with some senators and telling Palpatine that Griev was dead and now he should honor his promises and hand over his extra powers.
If Palpatine agrees, then he looses some of those powers and possibly has to resign as chancellor later. After which they can arrest him.
If he refuses, then those senators will see this and this could shake some of his hold over the senate.
Then Jedi can then see what the whole senate says about this. If Palpatine's hold remains strong and his power unchanged then they know that the senate won't act against him nor is it likely that they will accept his arrest.
So they might have to be more drastic.

If a conflict does break out in the senate and his hold over it weakens, then it shows that some senators are not in his pockets and they could inform them of this and debate what to do next. An arrest, in the presence of many witnesses, might work.

Well as RotS showed, Palpatine wasn't defenseless, he was just pretending.
And I have said that Mace's reason for going from arrest to kill makes little sense. He knew about Palpatine's political power before he went. And nothing there had changed.
Had he said, we can't take him in, he'll kill us or no prison can hold him, that might have made more sense.

Mace going for the kill makes some sense from an anger perspective or that Mace doesn't think that he can get Palpatine to a cell as he'll just keep trying to kill him.
Legally it is very questionable. Morally as well.

In closing, I don't blame the Jedi for acting, had they done nothing it would not have saved them, Palpatine could do order 66 anyway and tell any lie. The exact course of action leaves a lot of room for improvement.
Warning the rest of the Jedi for one, telling some senators they trust is another, like Bail or Padme, is another.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

The_Phantom_Calamari, as much as I may strongly disagree with you on other things, I agree with every word you’ve said about the necessity of maintaining democratic principles no matter what.

 

I also agree with The_Phantom_Calamari
I think that Mace's decisions are representative of the decisions of the entire Jedi Order throughout the prequels. I think that they lost sight of what they were really fighting for.

"My allegiance is to the republic, to democracy!" - Obi-wan Kenobi... and yet, Mace's actions were more aligned with Brutus when he decided to kill Julius Caesar. Did that work out for Brutus? No, the Roman Republic became the Roman Empire anyway.

 

Mace Windu was the tougher, meaner side of the Jedi Council, and maybe of the entire Order. Palpatine had caused so much destruction for so many years (killing many Jedi in the process) that I think Windu was prepared to destroyed Palpatine no matter what. As for taking only three Jedi, well, they were Jedi Masters. I thought it was ridiculous they were killed so fast, but they needed to get out of Anakin's way.

I kind of feel sorry for Windu because he though making Anakin stay would help. If Anakin had actually stayed, it would have worked. They should have tied him down before leaving, lol!

 

If Palpatine was able to hide his identity from all the masters on Coruscant, Mace definitely should have been prepared for a while new level of power from him. Three masters would be more ban enough for someone like Dooku, but not Palpatine, whose powers are beyond that of an ordinary Sith. The fate of the galaxy depended on the mission, and Mace just didn't prepare enough.

 

Thank you, I think that's a very good point.

 

I agree, Mace was overconfident here.

He was already suspicious of Palpatine, hence the fact the "posse" was on their way to Palpatine's office the instant they heard of Grievous's defeat (to see if Palpatine would keep his word). They originally didn't even know he was a Sith, yet on hearing this news from Skywalker, he doesn't inform the Jedi Council or gather more Jedi for backup. Just straight to arrest mode and off to stop Palpatine with little real plan or knowledge of what exactly they were up against.

And when he finally decides Palpatine is too dangerous to leave to the courts, it is pretty impulsive. It seems intentional that he might have decided different from attempted execution in front of a conflicted chosen one if he had allowed himself to cool off a little first.

 

In the novelization he takes the time to inform Yoda before leaving the Temple.