And here we see the Greek policeman in his natural state ...

[image=http://i.imgur.com/HOOwO.jpg]

... on fire!

In 2012, London burning is out, Athens burning is in.

[image=http://turkishcentralnews.com/http://turkishcentralnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Ba%C5%9Fl%C4%B1ks%C4%B1z-1.png/2012/02/ATHENS.jpg]

 

Eh, "Athens Burning" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

 

Would the world economy just get on with it and ****ing collapse already? It's been over four years since all this started and I'm getting impatient. How much austerity does Greece have left in it? For the next bailout is the IMF/Eurozone gonna want the Parthenon and the recipe for that **** they used to burn boats in the middle ages?

 

They're better at it tho'. I mean, London's tough, but not this tough.

 

Yea, I actually saw people suggesting this for real. I can't help but shudder at the thought of "The Acropolis, brought to you by CitiBank".

 

I'm already stocking on gasoline.

 

I would too, but we Belgians are notoriously passive people. When the French had a revolution for freedom, equality and brotherhood, we had one to restore the rights of the Catholic Church ... You know, that's how it goes over here.

 

Its tragic to see whats happening in Greece. Uneployment at 20%. Youth unemployment at 40%. No country can sustain this level of austerity and public anger indefinately. What really needs to happen is Greece needs to default on its debt. Pull out of the euro, launch its own currency which it can then devalue and at least start the process of rebuilding its shattered economy.

Of course this would probabaly lead to another banking collapse and a run on the euro (and probabaly weak euro countries like Italy, Portugal and Spain) so its not desirable for the global economy at all, but in the end I can't see how it can be avoided because the kind of austerity being inflicted on Greece isn't managable in the long term.

Ultimately this whole euro zone crisis is down to the arrognace of the euro elite. They were warned not to include Med countries in the euro project. That it would not be possible to have the same interest rates in Germany and Greece for instance. But their arrogance and desire to see their "vision" implemented threw reason and economics out of the window.

 

Alternately, Greece (and every other country being bailed out) becomes a colony of one of the countries footing the bill.
All debts are paid by the parent country.
The Parent country rebuilds the colony, including training and replacing all the government institutions with ones that have been proven to work (you know, collecting taxes from the rich, not having people retire at 40 with full pensions...)
10 years later, when proper and functional institutions of government have been set up, the parent country returns the colony(ies) to full independence. The only people who lose their jobs are the politicians and bureaucrats who broke the economy in the first place. They (esp the politicians) are blacklisted for life from any involvement in any government or government-related employment.

Why does Greece need a bailout? Corrupt politicians, refusal to collect taxes from the richer residents, and totally impractical retirement. How did they get into the EU? By lieing about their financial status. What penalty to they pay for that lie? none.

 

Koohii, you're crazy.

 

YES! It's all the Grecians fault!

Because it's not as if the accounting tricks they used to meet standards were well known and winked at by those that approved their membership. And it's not like banks, following the dictates of the free market, knowingly offered a bunch of loans to this bad customer in hopes they would make huge returns (much as was done with "liar loans" etc among mortgages for individual US households). And it's certainly not like this punitive desire to "punish" the offending country instead of just fixing the economic problem led to the logic of austerity in the first place, and further wounded the Greek economy.

Something something GOLD STANDARD! Ron Paul is always right! Good policy argument Koohii!!

 

[image=http://i.imgur.com/HOOwO.jpg]


Greek policeman doing his best Johnny Storm impersonation.

(The Human Torch?)

 

Of course a lot of Greece's problems stem from their crazy tax and spend policies, but the central issue that makes Greece's position in the eurozone untennable (and this is true of many of the club med nations) is that its economic performance is so much weaker compared to Germany.

These are inherant structural problems and were forseen at the time the Euro was launched. The only way to resolve this and keep the eurozone together is to effectively turn the Greek (or Italian, or Portuguese) economy into a version of the German economy. That means coming towards German levels of productivity. German levels of tax and spend. That can only happen if you create full intergration and a United States Of Europe and even then would take decades to achieve - Decades of austerity, poverty, unemployment and reducing living standards. Thats never going to happen and it certainly can't happen by being imposed by outside bureauracy.

The Euro must and will inevitably break up from its present form. The Club Med countries will eventually have to break away and devalue whatever currencies they launch.

 

Yes. What's your point?

Was my sarcasm not obvious enough?

 

No, was mine not?

 

I hope all of those who call for the removal of taxation will see Greece and what years of not paying your tax gets you and your country.

 

Lowering tax isn't a problem if you lower spending accordingly. Greece's problem is that whilst nobody has been paying tax they have been spending on a vast scale.

You either have to have high taxes to pay for high spending. Or have low taxes and low spending. But low taxes and high spending can only end one way - Greece 2012.

 

I'm not saying lowering taxes is bad, I'm saying having none is bad. There are many who call for the abolition of taxation (removing "government force" and so on) without realising that it was lack of paying taxes that crippled the economy of Greece. Governments use tax money to spend on things, without it they borrow and then get debt they can't pay because they have no income.

 

I remember reading a nice cute story way back when I was in college.
Aliens make first contact. Humanity rejoices and is invited to join the federation of aligned worlds.
All is fine.
Earth, under the UN, is authorized to purchase whatever scientific advances it wishes. But the internal politics go nuts. One nation buys the cure for cancer, USSR bought Energy shields after USA bought energy weapons... There was no consensus,and each country refused to stop spending, or share what they had purchased, or work on limiting anyone else's spending.
After a couple years, the bankers (who looked like dragons) showed up to collect. They worked out that in order to cover the debt incurred, the bank would have to own all of Earth, and sell off 2/3 of humanity into slavery.
And all the nations went into bickering and finger-pointing, blaming each other.

Wish I could remember the name of the story and author.
Not that there are any parallels with the current situation...
_________________

I don't care what the tax system is, so long as it is easy to understand, logical, and enforced EQUALLY to all. If my taxes are 55% and my neighbor is 5%, and some company that earns revenue in the billions is 2% that's a problem.
Also, taxes are about generating revenue for the government. There shouldn't be any social engineering in them. Get rid of "sin taxes". Stop supplementing one industry and putting higher taxes on others.

George Carlin was right about churches: TAX THEM.

 

Yes, Greece's piss poor qualifications were an open secret. Just like our collapse, theirs was thanks to a confederacy of dunces.
Reckless banks, idiot politicians and selfish, short sighted consumers.

 

In short, utterly and completely inevitable. But don't worry, folks. The rest of the western nations are much smarter than those silly Greeks so that kind of thing will never happen here.

 

almost as if there are contradictions inherent in the capitalist system... contradictions that must be resolved with some sort of crisis...

 

First of all, Club Med, I know it's used, but I still think it's a damn offensive way to describe entire countries, and it was invented to keep the "lazy Greek/Southern Europeans" narrative going, which is rather bloody racist in the end count. Furthermore, Greece's problems were not caused by their crazy "tax and spend" (look, you're using another one of those highly effective propaganda phrases of the right) but by the set-up of the economy and at this point, by the stubborn way the Troika keeps insisting on failed policies (austerity) which aren't solving jack. If they wanted to save something, they'd have started with the eurobonds years ago, but they're all bloody hypnotized by "rating agencies" & all. Hey, it'll be fun if Greece fails though, I do like some fire and mayhem, and I always hope it gets worse.

Oh, and the average Greek retirement age is about the same as in any other Western country, not "far lower" nor do they work less hours. Stop with the whole morality of capitalism game, it's a ploy. What we really need is Hollande to win the French presidential elections and Merkel's government to fall at the same time. That's the only way we're going to get out of this spiral of Hooverian Doom.

 

Greece's problems is three fold, one is an inherent structural problem, second is incompetent European leaders with their lets-destroy-the-economy conservative party ideology and third problem is Germany.
They're only trying to fix the first problem, the great masses of the people keep on (re-)electing the second problem and the mass media (e.g. Anglo-Saxon media) keeps on praising the third problem (do they even know what wage suppression means? Probably not.)
So yeah, this won't be solved any time soon.