CT And if the TESB had not been a success.

What you mean? New Hope is my favorite, but I love TESB.

 

cxcfffxx

[/quote]
What you mean? New Hope is my favorite, but I love TESB.[/quote]

 

Oh my...
I just meant that you're saying "the the empire strikes back."
Just like when people say MLB baseball.
cxcfffxx

 

Please, could you please delete all of my messages?

 

Exactly. The correct title is:

The Star Wars : The Episode V : The Empire Strikes Back

 

If ESB had failed then it most likely would have meant no Skywalker Ranch.
And since Lucas had spent a lot of money expanding Lucasfilm, that might also have been damaged.
It is unlikely to have made Lucas a pauper but it could very well have destroyed the empire he was trying to build.

IF ESB failed and Fox took over as producers.
I think there would have been a lot of changes compared with what we have.

1) Kasdan, would FOX be eager to bring him back after the flop of ESB?

2) Lucas wanted Spielberg to direct and one of the reasons that didn't happen is that Lucas quit the DGA. If FOX is in control that might not be a factor, so Spielberg might have directed the film.
But if it would come over the objections of Lucas and what his visions was, then perhaps not.

3) Lucas was tired of SW and wanted to end it so he put in things that were meant for later films. Ex Leia being the other.
If FOX took over and they wanted a long running series, they might not have have done that and instead gone with the original idea, that Luke's sister is out there and being trained as a Jedi.
And if their "RotJ" did ok at the BO then we might have gotten a ST before a PT.

4) Would FOX go with redeeming Vader or just have him die as bad guy?
Would they even go with the father idea? They could ret-con it as a lie.

5) Would Harrison Ford come back? He was not under contract and if ESB flopped, he might want to distance himself from SW.

In short, a RotJ, made by FOX after a flop ESB, the odds are good that it would have been quite different from what the film now is.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

^ I have difficulty imagining what Fox would decide was the best way to go forward after ESB if it had not been a success. Maybe go backward.

Maybe they would have decided that the best thing about the first mega-hit Star Wars was that crazy desert planet and all weirdo creatures that hung out in the bar there. They might have insisted that the film end with a big space battle around a death star and insisted that the series return to those things. Maybe they would have had another duel on board that death star at some point.

 

I like the "The Star Wars" bit.

 

The only thing I do not like THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, it's Obi Wan, he should have appeared more during training in Dagobah. I do not know if Alec Guinness would, but that's what I think.

 

Of course ROTJ still would have been made, even if TESB was not a success (that itself would be very unlikely).

Episode II was no blockbuster, but Lucas still went ahead and finished his vision of a prequel trilogy. He's never been one to stop what he is doing because of complaints from fans or poor reception. The worst that would probably have happened was that Lucas, perhaps blaming Kershner for the film's failure, would have directed Return of the Jedi himself, or made it a low-budget film due to the lack of income from its predecessor.

Lucasfilm would probably fizzle out after 1983, however, and Star Wars may have ended after ROTJ.

 

My posts on this topic page.

 

I agree that it is very unlikely that ESB would have failed so badly at the BO.
But Lucas was worried, the sequel to American Graffiti did about 15 M at the BO while the original had made 115 M.
It was made cheap so it was no bomb but it did far less than the original.

Lucas had gotten A LOT of money from the first film and he was already quite rich.
But he had chosen to invest much of that money in his businesses, expanding Lucasfilm, building Skywalker ranch etc. Those were very expensive.
So to make ESB he had to take bank loans and when the budget ran over, FOX had to come in and help him.

From what I've read, ESB had to make 50-60 M to be in the black.
Had it done less than that then it would have been consequences.
Lucas had taken loans to make the film, to pay them back maybe that would meant the end of Skywalker ranch. It would not ruin him but it would hurt.

Making RotJ cheap? It's budget is listed as 32 M but I've heard that there were a lot of other cost over runs so that this film had to make 115 M at the BO, which is twice as much as what ESB had to make. Not sure about these figures so take them with a grain of salt.

But doing RotJ for say 5 M?
The first film had a budget of 11 M and while not super high, it wasn't really low budget either.
Could it be done? Yes but would Lucas do that?

I think it would be more likely that he got FOX to come onboard and finance the film and he stay on a executive producer or something.

That he would direct? I don't see that as likely either.
He had worked so hard on ANH that he wound up in hospital. And when making ESB, he had spent much time building up Lucasfilm, ILM and Skywalker ranch. So much so that the relationship with Marcia was getting strained.
Directing the film, with a low budget and under the added pressure of the previous film flopping?
I am not sure he would have done that if he had other options.

Again from what I've heard, Lucas wanted Spielberg for the third film because they had made Raiders together and this had been great for Lucas. He didn't have to direct and could leave that in the capable hands of his friend. So for RotJ he wanted Spielberg to direct and Kasdan to write and he could take it a bit easier and patch things up with Marcia.

Lastly, AotC made over 300 M domestic, which is quite a lot and was a blockbuster to be sure.
It was a bit lower than what many expected, hence why there was talk of AotC "Underperforming".
From what I remember, Lucas said that over 280 M was the home free territory for AotC and under 205 M meant that they would have to rethink things.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

You're right, and you make very good points. I just thought that if TESB hadn't been a hit, Lucas would have thought that it was because he'd trusted it to another director. ANH was already a cultural icon and he'd directed it himself, so he may have assumed that his films were better if he directed them himself.
It would have made his relationship with Marcia even worse, and put him under even more pressure, but if I-III and the Clone Wars movie taught us anything, it's that he will not cancel any future installments based on mediocre reception.

 

I don't think Fox would have interfered with Lucas' vision of the third film unless he went over budget as he did with Star Wars (for which they had originally earmarked $8 million). A single box-office failure would not have burned up their trust in his ability to deliver the goods, so they would have let him tell his story (though I expect they would have drawn the line at spending $40+ million). We would have gotten Jedi with fewer FX.

 

Well it is not like Lucas had nothing t do with ESB. he was very much involved.
If he felt the film was ungodly terrible, he could have taken it away from Kershner.
And I've read that Lucas tried to make his own edit of ESB but that didn't really work due to the way that Kershner had filmed it. Hence why he told Marquand to film it in such a way that he would have lots of options in editing.

If it failed badly, Lucas might blame Kershner but more likely he would blame Kurtz for the film going over budget. And he could blame himself.
But he might also think that SW was just a fad, that it worked once but now people had moved on.
I brought up the sequel to American Graffiti, that did not do well.
And the Holiday special had become a laughing stock.
So a failed TV special and a bomb of a sequel. That might cause people to loose confidence.

Lucas won't stop due to mixed reception yes, but all three PT films were big hits.
If TPM had made 70 M at the BO in 1999, I think it would have had a greater impact than mediocre reviews.

Lucas had put a lot of the money he got from ANH to build his own empire and make him independent of Hollywood and the studios. Whom he didn't have a high regard for.
Had ESB failed, not only would that likely doom his empire but he would also not be able to make another film by himself.
He would have to go to a studio and ask them for money.
And would Lucas, who didn't like studios and had invested heavily to make himself independent, him going back to the same studios, cap in hand. That would sting.

If the choice was between, NO film after or him directing it with money from FOX. That I can see him doing. Remember, making ANH was grueling for Lucas and he had not enjoyed it.
That is why he was so against directing ESB and RotJ.
So I could also see him selling the film rights to FOX along with his notes and let them make whatever films they wanted.
He could use the money to salvage what he could and step down and spend time with Marcia.

And even if Lucas did make the third film, the failure of ESB could and very likely would make him doubt things.
Was it a good idea to make Vader Luke's father, was that why audiences had rejected it?
So RotJ might ret-con that by having Vader simply lie about it.
Would Leia be the "other"? If FOX wanted more films then they could stop that and reserve that for future films.
Plus, from what I recall, Alan Ladd was no longer at FOX and he was one person whom Lucas trusted.

And as I've said would Ford come back? Would Kasdan?

Lastly, if Lucas did direct RotJ, I think he would feel rather miserable.
His big gamble to become independent had failed, he was back doing something something he did not enjoy and working under a studio. Plus he might feel that this will doom his marriage.
In all, making a film under those conditions would be far from ideal.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Star Wars was already the biggest film of all time.

The success that it and its sequel enjoyed was unprecedented but the idea that it could have been a box office flop is rather far fetched.

The limited re-releases in '78 and '79 made over $50m in the US alone. So appetite for Star Wars was as big as it had been during the hysteria of the initial explosion by the time its sequel came out.

The likely worst case scenario was probably a box office cut in half and even that would have ensured mega profits and continued independence when developing and shooting the third Star Wars.

TESB made almost four times as much as ANH in its opening weekend. ROTJ did an even better opening weekend. The success of each Star Wars sequel has been defined by the constant anticipation for a new film.

Interestingly. TESB had made more money domestically at the end of its initial three months of release than ANH had by the same point. But ANH just kept going and going even after TESB had been released. £15 million in a 1982 limited release alone.

 

Even Lucas wasn't certain as to how much money TESB and ROTJ would make. He stated in the 1980 Rolling Stone interview, that if the two films didn't make enough, he would never finish the Ranch. And that he would spend the rest of his career trying to make a big film like ANH, in order to do it. Just because the re-releases made $50 million wasn't a guarantee in his view.

 

Nothing is guaranteed.

But the sequel to the biggest film of all time, by a considerable margin, is likely to make more money still than the first one was expected to.

The biggest threat to Skywalker ranch was that TESB would be an unfinished, incoherent and terrible, terrible movie that actually drove people out of the cinema in its first week or two.

 

Hah, glad you mention this. I was 5 when this came out and I distinctly remember being so disappointed by the ending because I'd have to wait forever to see how the story ended. It was probably my introduction to the concept of a cliffhanger!

 

That's interesting. I was about the same age, and didn't think anything of it. I don't remember expecting another movie to show a conclusion until seeing it printed in a magazine over two years later (whenever it was still called Revenge of the Jedi.) Maybe I was just so distracted by the toys and imagination.