ST Andy Serkis (Supreme Leader Snoke) in Episode VII

Everyone has to start somewhere. Anakin was defeated by Dooku in AOTC and had his arm cut off. He lost several more times in TCW. Then by ROTS, he held his own against Dooku and killed him.

Whether Vader was at full power or not, he dominated Luke in ESB and toyed with him. Luke had abandoned his training to save Han and Leia and did not return to Dagobah until it was too late. But even so, his powers had manifested such that he could defeat Vader with relative ease. In ESB, Palpatine sends Vader to turn Luke. In ROTJ, Palpatine states that Lukes has grown strong and that only together can he and Vader turn Luke.

Unless Rey was a student of Luke's and she just doesn't remember, then she's had no training. And even if she is Luke's former student, her training was clearly stopped at a very young age and her training was not completed. Yet power has manifested itself in her such that she can defeat a descendant of Anakin's.

Really, none of the main heroes have ever completed their training.

-They built Anakin up as having the potential to surpass Yoda and Palpatine, but he abandoned his training with the Jedi in favor of the Sith, but then was injured and never reached that potential, remaining weaker than Palpatine.
-Luke abandoned his training with Yoda to rescue Han and Leia
-Rey hasn't been trained at all, or had her training interrupted.

So, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Kylo's powers could grow by leaps and bounds, reaching their peak in Episode IX where he could go toe-to-toe with Luke, perhaps.

I don't think that matters. Palpatine had foreseen Luke's ability to destroy him. If he had the potential to destroy the Emperor, then he surely could have destroyed Vader. Regardless of whether Vader was pulling his punches. But it's not only Vader refusing to kill Luke, it's also a complete failure on Vader's part to defend himself. Even before Luke is provoked to anger, Luke is effortlessly dodging Vader and kicks him down the stairs. And then once Luke is provoked to anger, Vader gets destroyed.

From the script:

 

I view Kylo as the dark side version of Luke. We see Luke grow throughout the OT to become a Jedi and I think we will see Kylo grow to become a Sith or something similar. Using the dark side seems like it allows people to cut corners and grow quickly, plus he's a Skywalker so he has the potential.

 

Don"t know if that was ever discussed before at least here and think it would make a fine topic of discussion: As Sheev pointed out that only he and Vader together were strong enough to turn Luke, how important is abbility and force power in turning someone to the darkside?

Could there be an emanation of force energy around an force user that helps turning someone? It reminds me of the atmospheric descriptions of Luke's emotions in the throne room as his despair and darkness grows, in the original novelization of ROTJ.

Maybe being physically present around Palpy played a bigger role in Anakins Fall than just his words.

Wonder how powerful Snoke is in this regard, could he be dangerous enough to turn an powerful and cautious Jedi Master?

 

I'm so glad the whole Plagueis=Snoke stuff was debunked.

 

Perhaps Plagueis wasn't the first dark side user to try to cheat death. Maybe Snoke is even more ancient than he is.

 

In Legends, he wasn't. Vitiate ruled for at least 1000 years, and there was Exar Kun, who managed to keep his spirit intact, even if not his physical body.

 

The novel Aftermath had established that the ancient Sith knew rituals to extend their lives by "centuries." Plagueis could "save others from death, but not himself." Maul saved himself from death when he was cut in half.

I don't get the impression that what Plagueis achieved was really THAT special. It was special only insofar as it was exactly the power that Anakin wanted to save his wife from death. Plagueis couldn't stop himself from being killed though.

On top of this, particularly with behind the scenes interviews and commentary from Dave Filoni (in working on TCW and Rebels), he said that one of the ideas is that the Sith - all Sith - are obsessed with the pursuit of immortality. Unlike the Jedi, they do not believe in becoming one with the Force. They think there's nothing for them after death and so cling to life as much as possible. They are afraid of losing their power, and death is considered the ultimate failure, since they believe they will cease to be and so lose everything.

Plagueis and Bane are like the only two pre-TPM Sith that have been named in canon that I am aware of currently. But they seem to be establishing that there were ancient Sith that could put Palpatine and Plagueis to shame.

Palpatine ruled for a whopping 23 years as Emperor, and his reign saw the extinction of the Sith. The ancient Sith had raised several Sith Empires (Palpatine refers to Sith Empires in the plural as having been "built upon the backs of slaves" in TCW), they had built super weapons, and some knew how to live unnaturally long times. That some of the Sith could extend their lives by centuries implies that some could be living to be 200, 300, 400, etc. years old. Not only staving off death by natural causes, but surviving their enemies. Palpatine meanwhile died in his 70s or 80s.

Really, I don't think we were meant to believe that anything was particularly special about Plagueis. He was Palpatine's master, so that's his claim to fame. But he couldn't cheat death, he could save people he cared about (which is something of a weakness in Palpatine's eyes, probably), and he "unfortunately" taught Palpatine everything he knew.

And how much of a monster would Palpatine turn out to be if he was one of those cared for individuals that Plagueis saved from death only to be betrayed and murdered?

Point being, when compared to the ancient Sith, I think Plagueis was just scratching the surface, since when it comes to extending one's life span (Talzin, ancient Sith) or cheating death (Maul), other Sith have done it.

 

Obi-Wan should have mentioned to Luke that Palpatine could shoot lightning from his hands...and he could have also mentioned that a lightsaber is a handy way to block that lightning.

It would be cool to see Palpatine shooting lightning at Luke who's blocking it with the saber (barely) and pleading with Vader like Windu did...only this time, Vader (assuming he didn't lose his saber down the shaft moments before) cuts off Palpatine's hands. A second later, a dumbfounded Palpatine is force pushed into the shaft by Luke. Of course, the lightning hits Vader when he chops off Palpatine's hands...and it causes his suit to fail and he dies just like he did.

 

So Snoke is probably powerful, but he's obviously not so powerful he can avoid injury, despite his description of "uber." We probably shouldn't think of him as God-like then, but simply different in some ways from the Sith. The most obvious difference may be that he allows Kylo a group of apprentices that he is "master" of. Of course, we still don't know if the KOR are Force sensitive. I hope they are.

But then again, that would perhaps be a dumb decision for Snoke, to allow Kylo this group of Force sensitives who are not loyal to him (Snoke).

What is Snoke's ultimate goal? Looking at him, one would think he might want to heal himself and become more powerful.

 

It seemed to me that Kylo was not interested in the superweapon, not the destruction of the Republic. He seemed more of an observer than participant. He seemed more obsessed with Skywalker and then Rey. It's personal. Snoke seems to have one hand on the material structure of power and order, whilst keeping the other in the metaphysical world. I suppose his goal is to end the Skywalker bloodline because it's evil, from a certain point of view. Oh, and to end that scourge of humanity....sentimentality.

 

Yeah, would have been useful to know. Yoda even faced Palpatine and knew exactly what he was capable of. Should have given Luke some sort of hint during his training. In fact, what were Obi-Wan or Yoda thinking, sending Luke in like that? They had both given up on Vader being turned back, or so they claimed, so they probably didn't know Anakin would suddenly pop up and save the day. Without that intervention, Luke never really stood a chance, which Obi-Wan and Yoda should both have known.

At any rate, regarding Snoke: During my latest re-watching of TFA, I noticed just how much Hux and Kylo appear to revere and fear him. It's somewhat similar to the effect the Emperor had in TFA, but there appears to be more.. respect? Loyalty? It almost feels that way, which was certainly not the case for the Emperor. He may have had the loyalty of his followers in the PT, but in the OT he's established himself as someone who rules through fear, more than Snoke it seems. Not sure what all that means. Perhaps Snoke is more charismatic than he seems, or perhaps he's achieved certain things that made people loyal. I guess we'll find out in time.

 

Snoke seems a little more inclusive that Sidious did. Snoke is still is the Supreme Leader, but he seems to take advice or suggestions from Hux and Kylo and will at least hear them out. He seems to have gotten his officers to buy into his vision and makes them feel a part of it, which I think makes the First Order seem more zealous compared to the Empire.

 

Yes! Far more so, in fact. I particularly noticed how angry Kylo seems when he's referring to the resistance as "traitors". It appears to me that he truly feels that way.

 

For sure. I think Kylo is a true believer, but I sense he has something else on his mind. Hux is totally a zealot.

 

Yes, I think Hux will be First Order to the death. Kylo seems to not be totally on board with the FO, and may be using them for the time being, at least to a certain extent (even though he himself is being used by Snoke).

 

So are you saying that the Resistance is a Snoke-free environment?

 

The Resistance wishes to turn the galaxy into a no Snoking section.

 

Regardless of the character's origins or motivations, I just sincerely hope we get to see Serkis flex more of his formidable acting muscles in Episode VIII and presumably IX.

 

As I had foreseen! (cackles)

 

I do think that Snoke was a complete waste of Serkis' talent. Her hardly does anything but sit. Compared to his work in King Kong, Planet of the Apes, and Lord of the Rings, Serkis was terribly restrained in this role. Hopefully Snoke does more going forward. Unless Andy Serkis is just such a Star Wars fan that he wanted the role no matter how simple it would be, it seems like a very forgettable performance for him, not one that really required motion capture.

 

Yeah, I'm inclined to think there are bigger plans for utilizing Snoke in the next two episodes. My guess is it will be very similar to the increasing prominence of Palpatine in both the OT and PT, in which he went from being a minor supporting character to the big player at the end of each trilogy.

 

ha was acting. that's not wasting his talent.

 

Sorry, dude. I need to hear it from JJ's or Kathleen Kennedy's mouth.

 

it's over.

 

I disagree. His role was bigger than Palpatine in ANH and ESB. He will do more than sit in VIII. Serkis was great.