Challenge Angstmongers Anonymous | Angst Challenge & Discussion Thread | NEW! First/Last Lines Challenge!

It's okay, Mira, I live in Phoenix. Here we say, "at least we had Larry Fitzgerald"

You'd better believe it! That's an angst subcategory, and it's a glorious one

Mira, the tenth anniversary concert at the Royal Albert Hall! The finale with all the Valjeans! SO AMAZING

SECONDED

lolololololol accurate

Yeah, honestly, my tolerance is a lot less for the pro stuff. I can still handle some real heartbreakers when it's done well (The Book Thief omgomgomg), but the stakes are so much lower with fanfic. I really loved that Rebels laid the foundation for a SW multiverse, but we fanficcers have been doing that for decades. Between my own stories and wips and the ones I read, I have hundreds of different canons in my head at any given time. I find it gives you the emotional space to absorb and process the angst with less lasting actual angst. Best case scenario, really

 

Omg I didn't know how much I needed an angsty Obi-Wan / Satine fic to "The Elephant Love Medley" till right this second? But the movie version, not the Broadway one

(I have more thoughts, that was just the most urgent one)

 

New thought: "Come What May," though.

I like that. Because yeah - sometimes things suck. And it's easy to get caught up in that, especially if you're a fantasy writer trying to accurately portray medieval fantasy or something (cough GRRM) but there are bright spots, too. People have small triumphs and bright spots even in bleak times, and ignoring those is inherently dishonest.

Yes! I think a lot of the ones that came after took the bones (dystopian future society, proletariat vs. ruling class, love triangle) without really examining what made them good. Collins did a great job portraying the trauma and PTSD that the Hunger Games would have on the people who competed in it, and how viscerally awful and tragic a competition like that would be. I thought they did a pretty good job with the movies showing this, too, but I ... don't think I saw the last one. Hmm.

Maybe one of these days. Waiting on him and Patrick Rothfuss to release their next books. And Pierce Brown, who also does different flavor of grimdark but it's sci-fi and has a spoonful of hope.

One of my favorite authors who I think does grimdark well is Joe Abercrombie. His world is dark but his prose is hilarious and you find yourself snorting at the most inappropriate times. But the two trilogies he's released so far both end on a very very bleak note.

I write a great and terrible Vader. All shall love him and despair. Probably not love him, he's awful. Understand him?

Speaking of which - just posted my Gothic literature roulette challenge response. It's about my angry psychic hate wizard and ... it's pretty bleak!

 

I'll be back to comment on some of the more serious angst-related topics, but for now, here's the lighter stuff.

You killed Ben, Gabri. Itty bitty precious baby Ben!!! Considering your reaction to the vivisection and general emotional trauma of minors, I'm not exactly sure how you managed to write PoL because yikes doesn't begin to cover it.

YAAAAAASSS, DO THE THING.

I'm going to echo Elli here, absolutely both. What could be more fun than combining such seeming opposites? We definitely picked the right fandom for both.

Aw, thank you! I'm feeling much better today, and I've enjoyed reading everyone's comments here and over on Elli's angst bomb fic. I've even done a bit of writing today on my drabbles and hope to do some more, and I plan to inflict all the pain indeed...

My gosh, I sound so sadistic.

You gotta admire his ability to rock a cape, if nothing else.

Our first official challenge response, yay!!! It's now linked in the index and everything.

I'm grabbing this quote because there are too many of you. It's been added to the list, and I'm sure I'll be relying on you ladies for your expertise, as my own Broadway knowledge is rather limited. (*gasp*)

It isn't 24/7 angst in our world, but when there's angst to be had, run for cover.

 

I have a thing for romantic angst, Edward Scissorhands, Ten and Rose, the list goes on!

Oh, and A****aka and San!

 

I did not! I picked up the story after he was killed! The NJO was bleak like that! Moon also wrote a bleak post-NJO vig - oh, wait, Luke and Mara and Ben were all still alive in hers, never mind

 

I am working on my story right now, nothing better than starting off your story with "Norwegian Wood".

 

@Nehru_Amidala , someone else who enjoys being emotionally destroyed by Studio Ghibli films. *high five*

 

That and Tim Burton!

 

And I picked up EtF after Luke and Leia and Mara and Han and Jaina and Jag and Wedge and... and...

Okay, I'll cede this point.

Yes. That.

(Also, this week will likely be a certain other young trash lord...)

I foresee a PM full of angsty theatrical goodness in my future.

 

Shocker

The Trash Lord Guild is a great foundation for angst, there's no denying that

*hums "A Little Fall of Rain"*

 

I present my entry:

Mononoke

It's a Thrawn/Leia fic with all sorts of Gothic vibes. I am pleased how it turned out!

 

Okay, told myself I wouldn't but I'll have unlucky number 11.

I also enjoy angst that is mixed in with other moods/genres, though a quick browse of all the things I've liked in the last week would be enough to show that I will also absolutely drink that stuff straight from the carton in its purest form. As far as writing goes, angst tends not to be the main thing that I'm going for (with some exceptions!) but if something a tad angsty seems to me like it belongs then I'll add it even if the overall mood of the story is more on the fluffy side.

 

Got it in the index! Great to see the positive reception to this challenge so far.

Aw, thank you! I'm feeling much better after a restful weekend. And we're so glad to have you here with us!

Post-deadline entries are always welcome! The challenges in this thread are currently non-voting, so right now the due date is more a guideline than a hard and fast rule. It's fun to have us all working toward the same goal at once, but anyone is welcome to join in at any time and go at their own pace.

With that said, here is your quote!

10. “I am the chief of sinners, I am the chief of sufferers also.” (Robert Louis Stevenson, The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde)​

You're certainly not alone in this! And I definitely agree that a hopeful or comforting ending can make all the difference at the end of a particularly sad story. SW is all about that sense of hope, which I'm sure is part of what drew a lot of us to it in the first place.

Yes! I know I personally get a weird sort of enjoyment out of stories that toe that line. As you already know, I absolutely love characters like HK-47 (such a gloriously irreverent murder droid) for their ability to bridge that divide.

Aw, I'm honored by this mention! I do enjoy playing with the juxtaposition of humor and darkness with the twins, it's true. And if we're talking about stories that combine angst with heartwarming and/or happy moments, I have to submit @Gabri_Jade's fic Renewal and @Mira_Jade's Song!verse version of Darth Maul as great examples of how to handle that duality.

Welcome! For your quote, you have received:

11. “Love is like a tree: it shoots of itself; it strikes its roots deeply into our whole being, and frequently continues to put forth green leaves over a heart in ruins.” (Victor Hugo, The Hunchback of Notre Dame)​

I think that's true for a lot of us here!

Exactly. That's the thing about angst, it doesn't have to be all or nothing! As with so many things in life, it's finding the right balance. Sometimes a story doesn't call for angst, or maybe just a tad, and that's fine! Other times the angst has to be free to angst, and that's fine, too.

 

Awesome to see another response come in! I have you in the index!



Now that we’ve all gotten to know each other a little better (at least as far as our collective angstmonger status is concerned), there’s another topic I’d like to explore a little (read: see everyone write sprawling essays about), which has already been touched on a bit in some of your posts, particularly this one by @devilinthedetails:

Discussion #2

Okay, so… depictions of violence, particularly the different ways that writers approach violence in their stories. What are some ways that they differ, where do we draw the line, and what does that mean for our own writing? Like devilinthedetails said, The Hunger Games is in many ways a critique of the glorification of violence in media, while some of the books that followed in its footsteps either missed that message or didn’t know how to convey it in an effective way. I'm curious to know how you guys feel about how this contrast has played out in your own reading and writing choices.

Discuss!

 

Good topic, I need to marinate in my answer

 

I have basically no tolerance for violence. I am the sort of person who covers her eyes if there's a realistic fistfight in a movie. SW and MCU-typical violence is pretty much as far as I will ever go with visual media. (Maybe The Hunger Games movies were worse? But also, I covered my eyes at points in those movies too, so...) Vi has been very kindly teaching me the ways of X-Men movies (everyone's got a blind spot in their geekery ) and I like them so far, but I went into that endeavor saying straight out "I will never ever watch Logan, I don't care how great a story it is, I'll read the wiki entry." It's too much for me. I have a slightly higher tolerance for violence in the written word, but I still won't go very far with it. GoT? Hahahaha no never not a chance. I know I'm an outlier, and I'm not telling anyone else what to watch or read. This is just where I am with it.

That does mean that I personally will include minimal violence in my writing, and never graphic. But whether I'm reading or writing, I'm not going to handwave violence away in a situation where it's realistic - not justified, I'd like to clarify. A good story can contain unjustified violence. Alderaan, for example. What interests me more from a storytelling perspective is what that violence tells us about the characters in question, how it affects them, what the repercussions are.

And for me, just as important as the level of violence is whether it's a well-handled, necessary point of the story, or gratuitous. Personally, I think that Stover is excellent at facing up to the reality of the violence in the GFFA and how that plays out and how it affects everyone it touches. On the other side of that ledger, I think that Denning was always gratuitous about it. There were a lot of scenes in his books that I cringed through because it felt very much like he was just including a gory play-by-play because he could. It added nothing to the story, it told us nothing about the characters, it didn't affect the direction of the narrative. He just put a zoom lens on the actual physical process of violence and lingered there for no narrative reason. I hate that.

Stover shows violence on occasion and doesn't shy away from it - to the extent that I hesitate to read his original SFF even though I love his writing, because I suspect that without the constraints of what SW considers acceptable, it would be too much for me even done the way he handles it - but he shows that violence because it's an intrinsic part of the story he's telling. He doesn't stay focused on the violence itself. And he shows the aftereffects. One of my favorite examples of that is the final chapter of Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, where Luke resigns his commission over an act of violence he committed. Within the context of the story, it was a necessary act of violence. Luke took it seriously, tried to find other options, only did it when it was a last resort. It was nothing the NR was going to punish him for. But it was enough for Luke to end his military career on his own, because he'd had enough, because he was haunted by the things he'd had to do, and he didn't want to be in that position any longer.

So, yeah, that's my SW example of a good way to handle violence contrasted with a bad way to handle violence.

This is just me, but I prefer that basically none of my stories, either reading or writing, are purely black and white. I honestly loved that moment in the last episode of season one of The Mandalorian where the shuttle pilot tells Cara Dume that he had friends on the Death Star. And then Cara, the good guy, winds up shooting the man dead. Yes, he was an Imperial, the bad guy, and we'd just seen him kill the other pilot and he was holding the doctor hostage - but was killing the only option? Cara's gun didn't have a stun setting?

That's an example of handling the gray areas well in a story, if you ask me. The bad guy was very bad, and still made a valid point. The good guy had fought on the righteous side of that war and was on a rescue mission, but still killed someone unnecessarily - it could be argued, just because he'd taunted her about her own losses during that war. The episode doesn't tell us who to sympathize with, it simply presents that complex, nuanced situation, plays it out in the way that makes the most sense for the narrative and the characters, and moves on. The viewer is left to decide how they feel about it.

One of my own vigs addresses Luke's destruction of the Death Star, and was directly inspired by that last chapter of Mindor where Luke was so haunted by the violence he'd been a part of. I set up a scenario where Luke and Mara wind up discussing the violence they'd both committed, Luke for the Rebels and Mara for the Empire. They were both completely convinced at the time that they were doing the right thing. Luke, at least, still looks back and doesn't see how he could have done anything else. But the effects of that violence will never leave either of them, and years later they're still dealing with that.

On a very broad scale, yes, the Empire was bad and the Rebellion was good. But let's look a little closer, get into the details. There were over a million people on the Death Star. How many of them were conscripts? How many were people who'd signed up voluntarily but might have defected later? Leia and Bail and Mon Mothma were Imperial senators. Han, Wedge, Tycho, Hobbie, Madine, and a whole heck of a lot of other Rebels defected from the Empire. Even Agent Kallus from Rebels, who was with the freaking ISB, eventually defected. Look at Reva in the Obi-Wan show. Look at Mara. Look at the division of Anakin himself, how he started out, what he became, how he ended. Meanwhile, in Rogue One Cassian cold-bloodedly shoots his informant after he gets the information he needs, so that the Empire can't get it too. There are a lot of messy examples like that on both sides. The black and white morality play of SW has many, many complications and contradictions and shades of gray once you start scaling down. From a narrative standpoint, that's what's interesting to me.

And as far as writing, I guess that's where I tend to land. I'm not going to write violent acts themselves if I can avoid it, but I love writing character studies, and since all of the SW characters have been touched by violence in some way, I want to explore that aspect. Not the violence, but how it affects the characters, the regrets they live with, or don't, or try to convince themselves they don't have; whether they heal and to what extent and how, or whether they try to deny there ever was an effect and keep plowing ahead because to admit they were ever wrong would demand too great a psychological expenditure.

But then, everything with me is a character study, so obviously that's where I'd go with it

 

I literally just wrote a gory and violent death scene a few hours ago. I called it *checks* um, "a furiously realized catharsis," and in terms of the narrative, I think it makes sense there to show the headspace this character is in, and as a culmination of a series of events that lead to it. I don't think it's gratuitous? But now I kinda want to read it again and check.

I went through a massive grimdark fantasy phase a few years ago, maybe when GoT first started airing. Mark Lawrence's Prince of Thorns, Joe Abercrombie's The First Law, Robin Hobbs' Farseer Trilogy ... they're all fantastic, and maybe my reading habits have somewhat informed my writing choices. I think I have a stronger stomach for violence and for grimdark than others do, at least from the responses here. I do really enjoy a gray narrative, and the choices of the protagonists when there's no right or easy answer.

I think I saw a tag on AO3 recently that was something like "bad guys doing bad things" and - like, yeah, valid. Part of writing is showing rather than telling, and one of the things I really enjoy about Rebels in particular is how it shows how the Empire was Bad. Like not just to Rebels and perceived traitors, but to average people who just want to live normal lives. Writing the bad thing shouldn't be taken as endorsement of the bad thing, and can definitely be read as a critique and judgement of the person or society doing it.

Oh yeah, don't watch Logan, it's wonderful, but it's a lot.

Yes, that. And like, my first SW example of this is going to be Vader, because of course it is: TPM establishes slavery on Tatooine as absolutely awful and traumatizing, and slavery should inherently be read as violent. The creatively terrible sci-fi concept of exploding slave chips embedded in a person's body to prevent escape? I don't know if I have an overactive imagination (yes, probably) or George didn't fully think out the implications here (arguably) but that's, like, yikes on several horrific bikes. That's absolute nightmare fuel, and that's going to have massive repercussions on Anakin's and later Vader's psyche.

I LOVE Stover's non-SW books, and yes, they have creatively over-the-top grimdark violence - and yes it's definitely an intrinsic part of the story he's telling.

Oh, I have a PT example: the Tusken camp massacre vs. Order 66.

The Tusken massacre from the PT comes from a weird colonialist standpoint where these Backwards Native People kidnap and torture a random woman (from their perspective) to further Anakin's character development and the narrative - but why, George, why? It's absolute overkill: it tries to foreshadow Anakin's descent into Vader but shows him doing something way worse than anything Vader did onscreen in the OT, and THEN somehow it immediately after forgets about the wholesale slaughter of the women and children too to reset Anakin back to his previous level of morality in a way that completely undermines the eventual culmination of his arc with the slaughter of younglings in Order 66.

*deep breath* I love the PT, but it takes a lot of legwork to love it. And we spend so much time on Tatooine, but I have so many issues with the way George handles violence there, as embodied in the half-finished slavery storyline and the Tusken massacre.

Anyway, in contrast, Order 66 gets revisited so much in recent SW media, but it's important, and I understand why they do it; it's an important part of the story in transitioning from Anakin to Vader, from PT to OT, and it never seems gratuitous because it shows us something new every time, about one character or another

(unless you just write a drabble set about a clan of younglings dying, that might be gratuitous, Elli)

(stop it, Elli, you can't just insert self-referential italicized parentheticals into a meta post)

I think the official SW Twitter (?) recently tweeted something about it being impossible to stay out of politics, because 'Wars' is in the name; it's on the label, it's automatically going to be violent and political, and ... yeah. It touches every corner of the GFFA in some way, and for so many of the characters I like to read/write about, the way that violence touched them is just a core part of their identity that makes them who they are.

I was trying to write a happy AU story a while ago and just hit a brick wall because I was just ... flummoxed, because I don't know what some of these characters would be like without their angst and trauma. What's an intrinsic character trait, and what character traits would this character not have if they weren't a slave / taken by the Jedi or Sith at an early age / lost their parents / been a victim of imperialist oppression? Who knows?