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Lit Another TIE Variant: Concerning the Silent Badass, Raith Sienar – and that Ryder Windham Fellow

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Barriss_Coffee, Oct 13, 2019.

  1. Darth Zack

    Darth Zack Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    The Star Wars Sourcebook 2e says "1 or 2 flights (in a fighter squadron) are TIE/fc. They are often detached to assist bombers and/or ground forces." This is under Three Flights in Each Squadron. Rereading it, I suppose "in a fighter squadron" could mean a single squadron.

    TIE/fcs could make good targets for an rpg adventure or wargame scenario.
     
  2. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    Very true. That's characterised as very much an Imperial Army tatic, though - their standard garrison wing has a full squadron of a dozen TIE/gt attack planes and a four-plane "recon squadron" of TIE/fc scouts, plus two squadrons of straight-wing TIE Fighters... I deliberately didn't mention that to avoid the confusion. :p

    I don't think any of the key sources for the non-movie TIE Fighter variants in the old continuity - the Star Wars Sourcebook, The Imperial Sourcebook and Star Wars Adventure Journal #10 - explicitly mention Imperial Navy using the TIE/gt and TIE/fc combination in the same way... but anyone who picks up a line I've missed is welcome to correct me! :D

    But speaking of that...

    You may have answered my question for me! Do you have a page reference for this? Like I said in my long reply above, I couldn't find this reference...

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
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  3. Darth Zack

    Darth Zack Jedi Knight star 1

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    Nov 1, 2012
    The page number is 29.
     
  4. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Master star 4

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    May 21, 2014
    Kind of disappointed with the Imperial Army Air Corp (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Army_Air_Corps). They made it Navy personnel on detached duty to the Army...I would have preferrd it been Army personnel who are pilots like in the real world.
     
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  5. Daneira

    Daneira Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2016
    The article doesn’t say that they’re Navy personnel, just that the TIEs themselves are from the Navy. The one non-FFG source for the article, Last Call at Zero Angle, says:

    “The Nashtahs were ground-hogs -— TIE fighter pilots who flew in planetary atmospheres on missions for the Imperial Army. Maneuvering a TIE through goo was more difficult than flying through the emptiness of space -— that was the domain of the vac-heads who flew for the Imperial Navy.”

    So they’re Army.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  6. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    @Chris0013 and @Daneira - without having looked at the reboot material on TIEs in the Imperial Army too deeply, I wonder if this can be taken either way. In the pre-reboot material the pilots were all Imperial Navy, which I personally had no problem with at all, but fans who prefer the Army to have their own pilots can read a retcon in the reboot...? [face_peace] [face_thinking]

    Of course, the reboot can ignore the old continuity if they decide that's better, and I have no particular problem with that either... :p

    I have you now. Further down the page I was looking at. :oops: [face_blush]

    Thanks for that. :D

    And I seem to have written a very long reply. My excuse is that Rogue One's on TV and I'm multitasking...

    That's downright weird, especially as the top of the same page states that the wing musters "48 TIE fighters (including 2-4 TIE/fc models)", plus the 12-plane squadrons of Interceptors and TIE Bombers. Wildly contradictory statements as part of what's essentially the same diagram. Several options here...

    1.) ... do we read that as meaning that just one squadron has 4-8 TIE/fc, as you suggest?

    2.) ... do we read that as a typo for "1-2 fighters" in each squadron?

    Both of those at least overlap with the statement of 2-4 of them overall?

    Or...

    3.) ... do we see this as representing a completely different interpretation in which at least 12 and possibly up to 32 fighters in each wing are actually this type (depending on whether there are one or two flights of them in each squadron and whether the recon squadron carries TIE Fire Control variants as well)...?

    The idea of a TIE wing consisting predominantly of slow (80 MGLT), weakly armed (one laser cannon), but highly manoeuvrable (almost equal to a TIE Interceptor or an A-wing) sensor pickets is quite paradigm-breaking - there'd potentially be just twelve standard TIE Fighters and twelve TIE Interceptors as proper "combat" planes with a superiority role, with a very strong emphasis on providing the ISD with a forward sensor line...

    On the other hand, the armament and performance of the TIE/fc only seems to have been established in the TIE Fighter piece in Star Wars Adventure Journal #10, nine years after The Star Wars Sourcebook - while I suspect that this was primarily "cut content" from the earlier sourcebooks, the TIE/fc might have originally been envisaged as a TIE with armament and speed performance equal to the standard fighter, and extra sensor and comm systems...

    [face_thinking]

    And then there's another option...

    4.) Because the Star Wars Sourcebook is framed an in-universe Rebel narrative, the anomalous reference could be simply erroneous - perhaps the idea of a squadron formation with a preponderance of TIE Fire Control variants is a misunderstanding of the "deployment squadron" described in SWAJ #10, which seems more likely to represent something like a combat patrol formation or a single detached squadron without the sensor backup of a large capital ship... or perhaps the TIE/fc was given a greater role in the early period when the standard superiority fighter was the TIE Starfighter, which had an 80 MGLT top speed and weaker blasters that together didn't provide much more firepower than the single uprated one on the Fire Control variant...

    That's probably the sort of explanation I'd go for, but that's really just a fanboy theory, and I suspect most people would find that one too complicated. :p

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
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  7. Daneira

    Daneira Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 30, 2016
    The Imperial Handbook mentions something the Army has called a Ground Support Wing: “Support fighter craft, such as garrison-based TIE fighters not operated by the Imperial Navy.” What is the source for all TIE pilots being Navy?



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  8. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Master star 4

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    May 21, 2014
    Looking back it could be read either way...but the line..."The AAC was primarily concerned in ground attack and air support missions to support Army operations"...implies (to me) that they are Navy supporting Army operations...if they were Army they would be part of the Army operation.

    But again...maybe we are reading it differently.
     
  9. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    Good question. Just for that, you get another long reply which doesn't reach a real conclusion beyond what you said already. :p

    A quick glance at the old pre-reboot material suggests that explicit references to where the Army obtains TIE Pilots are hard to find - harder than I'd imagined...

    According to the Star Wars Sourcebook, "[m]ost ground-based TIE fighters belong to the Imperial Navy, though their crews report to the garrison commander". The fact that the passage doesn't simply say that the pilots are Army personnel suggests they're loaned by the Navy with the TIEs, and the reference to other ground-baed TIEs may simply anticipate the reference to militia ones that follows - "A few planetary and local forces also operate early model TIEs". However, the phrasing leaves open the possibility that the pilots are Army personnel, and similarly allows for of other TIEs that are actually Army property.

    The Imperial Sourcebook
    adds the doctrinal principle that "permanent garrisons or units expecting surface campaigns of significant duration would have significant Naval assets, such as TIE fighers, attached to the Army units for the whole of their mission". Again, this suggests that TIEs used by the Army are seconded from the Navy, and we'd expect the pilots to come with them. A later passage does refer to them as the Army's "own starfighters", which seems contradictory, but this refers primarily to the Navy losing the fight to "retain control" in terms of practical command of the units involved, as ground-based TIEs are under the command of Army generals so they can be prioritised for ground support duty.

    Star Wars Adventure Journal #10 speaks of the "Imperial Army wing", the "Army fighter squadron" and "Army recon squadron", and speaks of the Navy "transferring" old TIE/gt attack variants to the Army as they replace them with TIE Bombers on front-line ships, but being left with more than they'd like on their inventory, due to "Army resistance (and legitimate lack of demand)". This confirms that the Army is getting Navy TIEs, but again says nothing about the pilots...

    There may be other references I've skipped here - as @Darth Zack showed just above, I don't always catch the relevant quotes, so everyone feel free to contribute!! :D

    The Ground Support Wing is the same unit I referred to above as the "garrison wing" - the standard ground-support TIE fomation assigned to each Imperial Army garrison, which can also be attached to other large Army formations requiring fighter support, usually on a more temporary basis. This is normally described as two squadrons of TIE Fighters, one TIE/gt squadron, and a flight of four TIE/fc spotters classed as a recon squadron - but in looking out the information I just summarised, I realised that the earliest enumeration in The Star Wars Sourcebook actually gives different totals.

    This source says that although the hangar in the standard garrison complex can carry forty "standard-sized TIEs", the actual organization is different - the main text mentions three squadrons, variously equipped, plus two TIE Bombers, while an attached diagram refers instead to five bombers and just thirty other fighters, and makes explicit that each TIE Bomber requires a double slot in the hangar. The only way to make sense of this is to infer that the Empire was modifying the roster as the TIE Bomber became available, and that the in-universe Rebel "author" was struggling to keep up. Just to be even more confusing, the diagram implies that there's actually space for 42 fighters in the racks. :p

    Another interesting little continuity detail in the Imperial Sourcebook is that the support personnel of the Groud Support Wing include twenty-five "controllers", sixty ground crew, and twenty-five "sensor techs", who as they're neither controlers nor ground crew, presumably man and/or maintain sensor equipment in the base. This is the only source I know of to provide a canonical figure for what was needed to keep TIEs flying and fighting.

    The Star Wars Adventure Journal #10 calculates that there are "approximately 4.6 million slots" for TIEs on Imperial capital ships and bases, combining both Army and Navy totals. Not sure if this has been picked up subsequently...

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
  10. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    But beyond TIEs do they mention any other army air assets??

    TIE Strikers for the Army...which is why we do not see them in the OT as that was Navy fleets in Death Squadron and at Endor??
    TIE Reapers and Sentinels for troop transport?
    Gozantis and AT-AT Barges for walker transport??
     
  11. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    TIE Strikers would have presumably been at Hoth by that logic.

    Perhaps TIE Strikers are defensive assets?
     
  12. Daneira

    Daneira Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 30, 2016
    Of course early 90s publications aren't going to have things that hadn't been invented yet.

    I think TIE strikers are designed to be used in-atmosphere, so we wouldn't see them at Endor.
    Gozantis delivering AT-ATs are canonically at Hoth via Battlefront: Twilight Company.
     
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  13. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Master star 4

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    May 21, 2014
    Yes..the Strikers were not invented yet...but this is a work around for (in universe) why we do not see them in the OT.

    and my comment about the Gozantis is that the Army would have their own for transporting their walkers.


    No...Vader's squadron was Navy...and the Navy could have said they will use Naval aerospace assets and not army.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2019
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  14. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Oooooh. Yes, of course.
     
  15. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 4, 1998
    Armies and navies don't necessarily play well together. Having army personnel and equipment stationed aboard a naval vessel might be problematic. Vader could probably force them to work together, but he's got better things to do with his time than to referee interservice squabbles.
     
  16. Daneira

    Daneira Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 30, 2016
    The Battle of Hoth was very much interserivce cooperation. General Veers and his AT-ATs weren't part of the Navy, they were Army. The Stormtrooper Corps is its own thing. All serving under Supreme Commander Vader.
     
  17. AV-6R7

    AV-6R7 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 9, 2014
    Per the Databank on StarWars.com, "the TIE striker is designed for atmospheric patrols over important Imperial ground-based installations", so you're probably on to something. This would explain why we saw them at Scarif and Jakku and not Hoth. The dense tree cover on Endor would've probably made Strikers in inefficient at best unless the Rebels scrambled starfighters to target the shield generator.
     
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  18. seeker_two

    seeker_two Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Maybe Veers and his command are more like Imperial Marines than Army.....

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  19. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Armies in the GFFA basically operate just like marines don't they? Planets are the equivalent of islands, and ground forces need ships to get them wherever they need to go.
     
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  20. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    @Chris0013 and @Daneira and @Sarge and @seeker_two and @Alpha-Red (and Sinre, who probably gets enough notifications and doesn't need tagged)...

    For whatever this is worth... the pre-reboot canon gave the impression that the Navy claimed a monopoly on the role of moving the Army between planets. The nearest thing to the Army having their own hyperdrive vehicles that I can think of in that continuity was the Evakmar-KDY transport mentioned in the Imperial Sourcebook, a huge troopship designed to carry an entire Army Corps (around 50,000-75,000 men).

    This normally seems to serve as a deep-space logistical depot for a Corps whose component Army units are deployed in various systems and aboard other Navy vessels, but is also implied to be capable of directly supporting a full-scale ground campaign against well-equipped opposition (as the Army feels that the Navy is too prone to place the safety of the ships ahead of the success of the mission in these contexts). Smaller shuttles are obviously required in both roles, but what these are is not specified, except that we might speculate that the transport can rack the wing of forty TIEs allocated to the Corps. Presumably the transports and all the smaller vessels that they deploy are crewed by the Navy, but this is never stated in an absolutely explicit way.

    The only specific dropship pilots I can think of any direct reference to are Navy (also in The Imperial Sourcebook), but they're part of an anomalous unit embedded in an élite TIE Bomber wing, designed to allow a battalion or two of infantry to be brought in for immediate follow-on.

    The Evakmar-KDY transports are certainly embedded in larger Navy formations. The standard deployment is described as an "assault line", consisting of two Evakmar-KDY transports and two frigates or cruisers as escorts - interestingly, these are usually Strike Cruisers, and perhaps it's no coincidence that these can act as a heavy landing ships, deploying a small armoured assault formation comprisng one AT-AT and two AT-STs, plus an infantry company (presumably carried aboard the AT-AT). The Imperial Sourcebook says that the Army regards a single Corps to be adequate for most planetary assaults, so the fact that the Navy insists on putting two Corps transports together is puzzling, and seems deliberately contrary - speculatively, the second ship will be acting as the depot for a Corps whose component units are deployed elsewhere, and even more speculatively, accompanies the first into the target system to simplify logistical and escort arrangements, and to provide a cache of duplicate parts, supplies and personnel for backup. :p

    The two major generals in command of the soldiers aboard each transport both outrank the senior Navy captain in command of the assault line's ships, but these Navy captains are the officers who annoy the Army by prioritising the safety of their ships over the success of the assault, which implies that they are not in the direct line of command of the associated Army generals.

    For a really big show, you throw in a full campaign Army under a full general - 200,000-300,000 troops, carried by a Navy "troop squadron" pairing two assault lines with four Evakmar-KDY transports and four escorts, and adding additional Navy forces, with between three and six more cruisers and frigates as a dedicated naval combat formation, plus a skirmish line of 10-20 corvettes and other pickets for screening purposes. This is described as an alternative to sending in a Star Destroyer and supporting battle squadron to suppress a system, presumably in situations where a lot more ground personnel are needed.

    There were some obscure pre-reboot sources - mostly or entirely the CCG, I think - which added a couple of Z-95s backing up the Rebel strike team on Endor... [face_thinking]

    EDIT: And I just realised that this is the TIE thread rather than the Fleet Junk thread. Wildly off-topic even by my standards... :oops: :p [face_blush]

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
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  21. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Master star 4

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    May 21, 2014
    I am not talking moving planet to planet....mostly. Yes the Navy will operate the huge troop carriers. I am talking strictly about the Army's integral air assets for moving walkers and troops on the planet..or from orbit t the planet. So basically ships I listed above. TIEs and airspeeders for CAP, shuttles for troop movement and Gozantis, Y-85 Titans, and Theta class AT-AT barges. Needing to move your troops, armor and support from one side of a planet to another would (IMHO) be an internal Army responsibility. And the Navy might not like chauffeuring them around on planet.
     
  22. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    We either got a TIE Variant or showed a hidden thing TIE's could do but I think the TIE shown in the climax of Mandalorian episode 7 is classified as a Outlander TIE or something. You'd figure the Imps would trick out their TIE's post Jakku as they keep modding stuff.
     
  23. Coalition for Progress

    Coalition for Progress Jedi Youngling

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    Nov 19, 2019
    Our wonderful TIE strikers, though adequate for most tasks unfortunately can not pass through shields which the terrorists at Hoth were using. To pass through the shields the ties would have had to slow down to walking speed and turn off repulsors, gliding through the shield perimeter making them extremely vulnerable to anti air fire.

    As such our brave infantry led by General Veers and Lord Vader himself had to go in and disable the shields themselves on foot.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
  24. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Do these shields extend all the way down to the ground surface, or is it more like an umbrella?
     
  25. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Master star 4

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    May 21, 2014
    I think like an umbrella otherwise the AT-ATs would not have gotten to them.