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AOTC is slowly becoming my favorite film. Is it for anyone else?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by DarkLordoftheSith14, Sep 13, 2007.

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  1. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    Perhaps I should have chosen my wording more carefully; if she did not 'witness' her people's murders first-hand, she was certainly aware via Sio Bibble's messages that 'the death toll' on Naboo was 'catastrophic' during the TF occupation.

    In either case, my point that she might have empathized with Anakin's loss remains valid.
     
  2. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon

    Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2000
    Just a side note, but the catastrophic death toll never really worked for me either. I mean, before the Jedi show up at the palace the first time, it pretty much looks like Naboo has surrendered peacefully. The palace even looks pretty unscarred when everyone comes back to regain control. The only violence we ever see the Trade Federation carry out as part of their occupation is knocking down a few trees and chasing some forest creatures away. But we never see them open fire without provocation on Naboo.

    Maybe if we'd seen some Nabooians gunned down in cold blood or perhaps some resistance fighters outside the small group in the palace led by the Jedi, it'd be easier to buy the whole 'my people are dying' bit. I don't even think we see the regular Naboo citizenry until the end celebration.
     
  3. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    I think those are all valid criticisms of TPM. But with regard to the events of AOTC, it's only important as a sidebar that Padme once experienced the immolation of her people. This element of the story remains true whether we witnessed the atrocity on screen in the previous episode, or were simply told about it.
     
  4. DarthMatter

    DarthMatter Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 12, 2004
    "It sounds like bait, to establish a connection trace."
    - Qui-Gon
     
  5. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    Again, we're into TPM territory here, but are you (Darth Matter) contending that Sio Bibble's message was an outright deception? That the TF made him lie to the Queen just so she would reply and establish a connection? Hmmm. Perhaps that's the case; the film is unclear on that point. It would certainly cast Bibble in an unappealing light vis-a-vis his cowardly inability to refuse his captors' request.

    Even so, however -- that is, assuming you are correct and Bibble was a cowardly liar -- Padme would still have experienced the death of at least some of the people under her command, including, particularly with regard to AOTC, her decoy who died at the beginning of the film. Thus she could still have empathized with, or at least understood, Anakin's thirst for revenge against the Tuskens.
     
  6. DarthMatter

    DarthMatter Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 12, 2004
    What? I'm saying he had been captured and was definitely at the point of a blaster while making that transmission. I'm not saying he was a liar, but that he was coerced, and likely didn't resist. If that little bit of offscreen mystery is a problem, then no wonder Padme's actions are hard for some to comprehend (not by you, just in general).

    She saw or heard of death in both films, and in TPM explicitly went back to Naboo for revenge ("we will take back what's ours"), among other reasons (to return to her "arena" of democracy and honesty, for one). Of course she obviously could empathize with Anakin.
     
  7. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    In that case, DarthMatter, I see now that we agree where Padme's empathy with Anakin is concerned, and that your point about Bibble's transmission being a possible deception was merely a sidebar to the discussion.

    That said, I'll continue with the sidebar for a moment to point out that, if you are correct in your opinion about Bibble lying at gunpoint, that act would make of the governor a despicable coward -- or at the very least, a decidely unheroic personage. To lie to one's queen in order to further the aims of the enemy (and thereby possibly to enable the capture and/or death of said queen) is a deed of unparalleled cowardice. That he was under coercion and in mortal danger should be no mitigator of his infraction, since a heroic (read: righteous) person would simply allow him or herself to be slain, and so perish defending one's people, one's leader and indeed, democracy itself. Had anyone known that Bibble had sold out Queen Amidala and the denizens of Naboo, one would expect charges to be accrued against the man, in pursuit of his immediate removal from office, if not imprisonment for treason or worse.
     
  8. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    AMIDALA, EIRTAE, RABE, and OBI-WAN watch a very bad transmission of a SIO
    BIBBLE hologram.

    BIBBLE : ...cut off all food supplies until you return...the death toll is
    catastrophic...we must bow to their wishes, Your Highness...Please tell us
    what to do! If you can hear us, Your Highness, you must contact me...


    AMIDALA looks upset...almost nervous.

    OBI-WAN : It's a trick. Send no reply... Send no transmission of any kind.


    I always took that to mean the transmission was possibly faked, but it's not clear.
     
  9. DarkLordoftheSith14

    DarkLordoftheSith14 Jedi Master star 1

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    Nov 26, 2004
    I thought Sio Bibble's line "the death toll is catastrophic" was a lie that the TF made him say to get Padme to contact Naboo so that the TF could trace them.
     
  10. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Yes because they gives us an insight in what motives the director had for the movie and how he envisioned it. In this case, Lucas quotes, the trailers, the opening crawl as well as other elements of the movie itself, all indicate clearly to me, that the film was intended to be in part a mystery film. If there was never any intention of making Dooku mysterious or ambigious why even call him "mysterious" in the crawl? Why did Lucas remove Jango from the separatists meeting? The characters in the film do not read the crawl so it could not have been for them. The crawl is ONLY for us, the audience, and so if a character is called "mysterious" there should be something mysterious about him. But according to you the only mystery about him is why the jedi can't figure out that he is a bad guy which leaves the audience with the conclusion that the jedi are buffons.


    But this, to me, is selling your movie short, why not have the audience involved in the mystery?
    There are lots of other films where the mysteries of the plot are totally clear to the audience but not to the characters but personally I tend to find those films less interesting than films where you, as a viewer, do not know everything and that you are along for the ride and learn with the characters. With AotC there was a potential to make Dooku something other than an obvious bad guy and from what Lucas himself has said as well as the movie itself, I can see that an effort was made here. But, to me, that effort was not good enough and a potentially interesting character was reduced to a throw away villain.



    Ability to use the Force is not the issue here but rather the ability to use your brain.
    Anyone that knew what the jedi knew at the end of AotC and has half a brain would see that several things does not add up. The jedi that supposedly ordered the army died before the order was made, the template for the clones works for the very people the army is designed to fight. Only an idiot would not be able to smell a rat here but since the jedi does not they come across as clueless dimwits. And this weaken the drama of the story to me. Palpatine did not beat a mostly competent advesary, he outwitted a bunch of buffons
     
  11. DarthMatter

    DarthMatter Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 12, 2004
    In general, this discussion is strange, coming from group of people who tend to read things into these films. [face_batting]

    Real life is not black and white (if you get out there and live it by risking something). Life is complex, sometimes confusing, and often riddled with emotional and ethical land mines. AOTC captures the wonderful and sometimes disturbing complexity of that reality. Black and white points of view are what guide us, and this is what we see breaking down for Padme, which ultimately leads to her losing the will to live - her entire world-view had been inverted and shattered by the end.

    AOTC is critical, and Padme's story is critical (in the opposite direction of the breakdown), because it illustrates to us how we get from the dithering and complexity which came before, the shades of grey, to the simplistic, totalitarian, black and white, good and evil polarity we see later. Her story is the galaxy's story, in a way. It's also poignantly encapsulated in the japor snippet - a selfless, simple gift of good fortune in TPM becomes a dagger-like symbol of perversion (resembling the star destroyer) in ROTS. In AOTC, we see that complex and mysterious transformation.

    Duh :rolleyes: [face_mischief] :cool:
     
  12. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    I don't think it resembles a Star Destroyer.
     
  13. DarthMatter

    DarthMatter Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 12, 2004
    "It's the funny little cuts on the side that give it away."
    - Dex
     
  14. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 17, 2006
    But that's the toxic dart, which resembles the exterior of the Jedi Temple war room.[face_dancing]
     
  15. WookieeWarrior9

    WookieeWarrior9 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 2007
    I must admit, this was my least favorite of the Saga, but I re-watched it with and open mind the other night and I was really impressed. I used to hate the dialogue between Anakin and Padme until I realized how awkward and nervous he acts around her. Even Obi-Wan tells him to take a deep breath in the elevator scene. I still don't like Geonosis, but when I look at it as a Mars like planet over a termite mound in space, it's a bit cooler.
     
  16. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    Granted that the film is meant to be in part a mystery. Granted that Dooku is not as mysterious to the audience as Lucas seems to have intended. Granted that this could be considered a flaw in the film, which makes it less than perfect. I've never contended that AOTC is to be counted among the finest films of all time. My own personal enjoyment of the movie, however, does not hinge on the obviousness of Dooku's villainy. I also do not perceive the Jedi as incompetent buffoons, merely prone to error as are all human beings, which is what in part the Saga is about.


    I wouldn't call him a "throwaway villain" exactly, given that his role in the Saga is multifold: He demonstrates, for one, the nature of the Sith dynamic and further that once-benevolent Jedi can fall from grace. He is also, in the end, an excellent example of the masterful manipulative powers of Sidious, who ultimately has merely used Dooku to further his own ends without revealing to Dooku his precise role. And, back onto the main track of the discussion, AOTC is still a mystery without the audience guessing at Dooku's ambiguity; we have the question as to who ordered the clones to wrap our minds around.



    The timeline is ambiguous; once Obi-Wan says "before that" [ten years ago] and at another point Sifo-Dyas is mentioned as having died "almost ten years ago." It is unclear to the audience -- and so, presumably, to the Jedi -- if S-D died before or after the clones were ordered. So you see it is not so cut and dried as you would like it.

    By this you must mean that Jango works for the TF, but in this capacity he is merely a bounty hunter whom Nute (via Dooku) has hired to assassinate Padme. From the Jedi's POV, that's where the connection ends, since it might be a simple coincidence that someone (they don't know who) contracted Jango to also serve as a model for the clone army. And to nigglingly correct your assertion, the clone army was not "designed to fight" anyone in particular.

    If you are going to use your imaginative powers to i
     
  17. RamRed

    RamRed Jedi Master star 4

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    May 16, 2002

    I always thought that Obi-Wan had believed that the transmission was a fake and wanted to take no chances in Queen Amidala being tracked by the Trade Federation. Unfortunately, Sidious and Maul had tracked Bibble's transmission to Tatooine.


    Real life is not black and white (if you get out there and live it by risking something). Life is complex, sometimes confusing, and often riddled with emotional and ethical land mines. AOTC captures the wonderful and sometimes disturbing complexity of that reality. Black and white points of view are what guide us, and this is what we see breaking down for Padme, which ultimately leads to her losing the will to live - her entire world-view had been inverted and shattered by the end.

    I agree. In fact, I would add that the black-and-white points of view were also breaking down for the other characters as well . . . especially Anakin and the Jedi.
     
  18. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    It definitely is for Anakin, but the Jedi seem to still be seeing things as black and white. I'd say their view in the middle or so of RotS basically is



    Good
    The Jedi Order
    Loyalists to the Republic

    Evil
    The Sith
    Those loyal to the Chancellor
    The remaining Sepratists
     
  19. RamRed

    RamRed Jedi Master star 4

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    May 16, 2002

    It's interesting that the Jedi viewed the Separatists as evil, considering that Queen Jamillia ended up developing sympathy for the Separatist movement (at least according to the EU). Even more ironic is that eventually Padme would develop similar feelings before her death.
     
  20. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    I'm not sure they were wrong about the Confederacy given that it was bascially a Council made up of corporations who planned to govern the galaxy. Padme was right that the Republic wasn't the government she was fighting for, but she makes the mistake of assuming that the corruption of the Republic means that the Sepratists are right.
     
  21. RamRed

    RamRed Jedi Master star 4

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    May 16, 2002
    I'm not sure they were wrong about the Confederacy given that it was bascially a Council made up of corporations who planned to govern the galaxy.


    I believe that your view of those systems that had joined the Separatists is rather limited. Considering the number of systems that had rebelled against the Republic, I suspect that not all or even most of them were corporations who planned to govern the galaxy. In the minds of many in the Republic - including the Jedi - they saw the presence of corporations and other groups the Trade Federation and the Banking Clans as signs that the Separatists were all corrupt and evil. Which is ironic, considering that the Republic had its own corruption to deal with.
     
  22. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    My view may be, and I'm not saying there were no Sepratists who were good and fighting simply for independance from the Republic rather than to futher corporate interests, but the Confederacy as a whole seems to be dominated by groups like the Trade Federation, the Banking Clans, the Techno Union Army, and the Commerce Guild.

    You're right of course that the Republic had it's own issues, but at least some influential people in the Republic such as Padme, Mon Mothma, and Bail Organa weren't corrupt.
     
  23. RamRed

    RamRed Jedi Master star 4

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    May 16, 2002

    And NOT ALL of those who had joined the Separatists were corrupt, either. Even Padme began harboring sympathies toward the Separatists by ROTS. At least those who were not corrupt. So, what's the point of labeling the Separatists as evil and the Republic as good, when both sides had supporters of good and evil?
     
  24. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    We never see any Seperatists who aren't evil though. The only living beings we see serving the Sepratists are generic aliens, corporatists, and the Sith.
     
  25. The_Immotated_One

    The_Immotated_One Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 11, 2006
    what is a generic alien?
     
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