PT AOTC without bad dialogue and romance scenes. How good is AOTC for you now?

If being simplistic is the way to go... then what about Han in ESB being an egoistic, chauvinistic jerk who wants to let his friends down (and perhaps die) just when they need him the most and grabs women without their consent, even ignoring their voiced discomfort? And we're supposed to believe Leia loves this guy just a moments later?

 

Nah, he is not.

1.In the whole arena part and robot factory he didn't whine even once.
2.When Dooku cut off his hand he didn't scream like a whiney kid similar to the way that Luke did in TESB.
3.In the chase scenes he didn't whine at all. (Only Obi-Wan whined at those scenes.)
4.When he realized that his mother was kidnapped, did he even whined or complained? No, he just went on to search for her.

Guess you have forgotten the movie.

 

Han in Episode 5 is creepy. I mean on the ship. He surrounds Leia practically giving her no choice but to accept his "brightest personality" and kiss him. Yuck. Anakin is just clumsy. If you consider his " I'm sorry" afte the kiss and the agreement to step back for creepiness you should redefine the meaning of this word because last time when I checked creepy meant someone who aggressively and constantly enters in another person intimate world and Anakin does the opposite. This for the creepiness is something that ironically is stated mostly by men, when, as woman I see Han as annoying womanizer to the point of being aggressive and creepy and the same (fortunately not all ) men consider his behavior as something cool. Believe me, he is not cool but insolent. That's why I still cannot understand why on Earth Leia who is smart and have high moral compass falls for such cheap tricks of ''I'm DA irresistible scruffy looking cowboy, you should be mine". Maybe because she is young and naïve? Han changes completely in Ep . 6 but in Ep.5 is cringe (for me with strong elements of creepiness )in his macho attempts. What I like in Padme is that she is far from all this, no matter how socially inexperienced she still is, she doesn't need "scoundrels" who don't have the courage to say "I love you". And yes, Han never does it, the joke in front of the bunker doesn't count. Anakin never fears to open his heart and to confess how he cannot breathe without Padme and how the love hurts (it does).
Yes, I'm not Han Solo fan in general, I like Luke but Luke is closer to his father in his attitude to women (I mean, in his case, in general). He is odd (especially when he becomes more and more Jedi like), clumsy but with open heart and mind and being vulnerable is something that paradoxically gives him strength. Much like Anakin. And as Anakin he is the Knight (is Luke who saves 2 times: in Episode.4 and in Episode.6). And the same with Anakin is obvious in AOTC : he is assigned as Padme's protector. That's why their love story is so tragic: they cared for each other, Anakin would rather die, leave the order and so on to protect her (the conversation in the clone ship in AOTC proves it) but we know how it ends. This sharp contrast between the beginning of the love story and its end in ROTS is deliberate . This is Tristan and Isolde story, not Cinderella. They won't live happily ever after, this was known since episode 1 but that doesn't make they love (before Vader I mean) less beautiful.

 

There are three main pillars to the PT story: how Anakin falls to the dark side, how the Republic becomes the Empire and how the Jedi are destroyed. (And how each are intertwined).

Should the PT romance scenes be cut? Han & Leia's romance isn't quite so central to their trilogy. It's important for their individual arcs, but it's kind of a b-plot. For Anakin & Padme it is central. They are the focal points and it gives us crucial exposition into their characters, how & why they fall in love, and how they get to where they do at the end of the trilogy. Which also feeds into the OT. I would certainly say it's more important than the action, 'splosion scenes. And as Lucas says, there's more to Star Wars than just space ships.


Why does it have to be "bad dialogue", can't it just be "Star Wars dialogue"? As Alec Guinness said about the ANH script, "the dialogue seemed a bit ropey, but it held my interest from page to page." Say what you will about Lucas & co.'s SW dialogue, but it's catchy, and it accomplishes exactly what it sets out to and in the way it needs to.
It's a space fantasy, not a modern day Earth documentary.

Same with the acting. Lucas uses stylized acting, not modern method acting.

As far as Natalie Portman's acting/Padme's demeanor in the love story, to echo what others have said, her feelings for Anakin are not supposed to be outwardly obvious. But what is more obvious, through the subtle signs, is that she's holding her cards very close to her chest. (Much like Leia).

As a serious politician in a classic period, she keeps a prim, proper, professional demeanor. And officially, the dynamic between her and her young Jedi protector is to remain strictly professional for a number of reasons.
What's noteworthy however, as stated by others, is how she feels comfortable enough around Anakin to drop the facade (bestowing Jar Jar's responsibilities) and act more informal and casual around him ("I do not like this idea of hiding!"). Even moreso than with Dorme, Panaka, Obi-Wan etc.
Notice Dorme's emotional restraint during Padme's departure as an example of the cultural expectations in their circles. Anakin by contrast wears his emotions on his sleeve.

What are the subtle signs? Well, it's best when you discover them for yourself, but a few examples:
-Her ear-to-ear grin upon seeing him again and to how handsome he's grown. To which Jar Jar mentions has been the happiest he's seen her in a longo time. Also notice she has this same beaming grin again later when she says "Well, then my Jedi protector will have to prove how good he is." And when she laughs like a school girl at Anakin's unfunny joke about not worrying because they have R2 with them, which helped relieve their tension.
(These tell me her initial attraction was high, now Anakin needs to earn her affection).

-On the transport to Naboo; coyly asking if he's allowed to love, being impressed by the blossoming maturity in his response but playing it down, and her conflicted reaction to his confession of dreaming of her.

-Her conflicted look when Anakin wants to kiss her, and then her not-so-subtle sign of reciprocating the kiss with him.

-And to reiterate what Tonyg said about the "I'll go with you" scene, pay attention to her body language, facial expressions, looks in her eyes etc. and just as importantly, listen to the music, in all their scenes together. Even her wardrobe speaks volumes.

And through all of their moments, keep in mind how she later says she's been slowly dying since he came back into her life. In other words, all the feelings she's developed for him but has forced herself to keep hidden and buried.


As to asking when she fell in love with him, it happened slowly over time, but the clues are there. Much like Anakin's fall and Leia's love story, it was a gradual process with a sudden, split-second moment in dire circumstances that brought it to the fore.

As to why, to add to what others have said about making her laugh and feel free, natural etc., he also proved how dedicated a protector he is to those he loves as evidenced by seeking and finding his mother. Also in not being afraid to stand up for what he believes is right time after time.


Creepy? Anakin was forward, honest and natural, albeit awkward, in initiating the direction he wanted things to go, rather than hiding it, modifying it or putting on an act. The point is, when she asked him to refrain from that behavior he did, he respected her boundaries. He gave her her freedom and spac - probably unlike a lot of her previous suitors. Then later tried once again but in a more gentle, less hungry way. Two steps forward, one step back. She now felt more safe and comfortable with him.
(Again, notice the difference in tone of voice from when she says "Please don't look at me like that" and when she says "Because it makes me feel uncomfortable." I think Portman played those subtleties masterfully).

All of the above mentioned things are ways in which I'd say Anakin earned Padme's love and affection.
(My #1 most unpopular SW opinion is that Anakin had great game. Awkward at times, but a natural).

Whiney? He vented to her in his 19 year-old petulant way, sure, he finally had someone to vent to, but immediately afterwards he has a look of recognition that he's gone too far. And most importantly, it didn't bother Padme. In fact, she sympathized with him and gave him some wisdom to help him grow.
(His whining in the packing scene also gives us a lot of exposition into how much Palpatine was feeding his ego and stoking his arrogance and entitlement, when combined with the one-on-one office scene).

A murderer? Fair enough. Just keep in mind Padme had no intentions of running off and marrying him at that point. Consoling him in the moment, why not? It was only when she thought they were moments away from death that it was important to express her love for him. Regardless of everything else.
And this is where one of the elements the marriage being secret comes in. After surviving Geonosis, she couldn't just renege on her pledge - on her true feelings, no matter what else has happened. As Tonyg said, they are all or nothing kinds of people. A tawdry affair wouldn't be good enough either, they wanted to celebrate their love with marriage. Though again, look at Padme during the wedding, there seems to be a bit of conflict in her. Either way, they wouldn't let rules stop them, that's how strong their love was. Even if their secrets would destroy them, love trumps all. This is intended to be a dark, Greekspearian, love vs. society tragedy. Full of as much dilemma as the rest of the situations in the PT.
As far as the slaughter, that was Anakin's responsibility to seek council for.

 

The Anakin and Padme romance is integral to the film AotC and later on RotS and is it vital to both their characters, esp Anakin.

So you can't really remove it or else this film and the next will suffer greatly.

The Han and Leia romance in ESB is character stuff not really much about plot and story.

However, because the Anakin and Padme romance is so key to the film and to them as characters, the risk is that if it does not work, then the film as a whole is affected much more than if the Han-Leia romance does not work.

I was 11 when I first saw ESB and I did not care for any romance so that part did not interest me. But there were enough other things going on in those scenes that I was still invested.

This was not the case with AotC. The romance, for various reasons, fell flat, it came across as forced and contrived and I did not buy any of it.
And since there are several scenes devoted to this and this aspect is so important to the characters, both they and the film suffered. To me it felt like the film ground to a halt every time it cut over to them and their romance.
I was engaged with Obi-Wan and his detective story but the Naboo stuff was just a grind to get through and the film lost me every time it cut over to those scenes.

The biggest issue, to me, is that neither actor could say the romance lines and sound like they meant them. I think they needed more help from their director. Hayden did quite well in other scenes when he is angry or hurt so those scenes he knew how to play. But not with the romance scenes.
I get that he was supposed to be awkward but there is a difference between playing and awkward character and awkwardly playing a character. And Hayden, to me, did the latter.
The style matters less than if the actors are able to say the lines with conviction. Some actors are able to take very cheesy or stilted dialogue and say it well. Others can not and then the dialogue becomes more of an issue.

It didn't help that having Anakin dream and fantasize for ten years about a girl he met for a few days. I am sorry but that isn't love or romantic as much is it an infatuation or even an obsession.
And he did come across as creepy at times. Padme turned off the cameras in her room, that were there for her safety, because she didn't like Anakin looking at her. So she prefer to risk her own life rather than having Anakin look at her when she is undressing.

And while Han does not respect Leia's boundaries and does cross the line at times. I can't help but think that mass murder cross way more lines. And I can not go along with the excuses I keep hearing about how killing all the Sand People would be no big deal or nothing wrong. He killed men, women and children. I think the film makes it clear that it was very wrong.
And that Padme barely reacted to it and never once suggested that Anakin talk to Obi-Wan or get help, that is iffy to me.

Lastly, the romance feels rushed to me. That was inevitable since TPM had a kid Anakin so the romance could nto starts there. Han and Leia spent three years around each other so it did not move as fast. And they did not marry each other at the end of ESB.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Great post.
Indeed Han-Leia relationship while with happy ending and really more traditional is more like side story to the main arcs (if you cut it from the movie, none of the main events would change, including Han saving from Jabba's palace, after all he is saved by his friends). Leia-Luke relationship is central to the story exactly because they are Anakin's children.
While the tragic love of Anakin and Padme is really one of pillars of the PT story. That's why Lucas said that AOTC is the first real romance in SW . Is not smooth, is never intended to be. Is raw and strong and tragic. All the secrets and let's say it circumstances around it destroy Anakin and Padme's lives (as I said, kind of Tristan and Isolde tragic story) but still they accepted this love in their all or nothing way. They both died at the same time because indeed they became one and cannot live without the other (Anakin died and Vader came to this world while Padme dying gave hope through the twins). In the end their love triumphed in Luke's feat in Episode.6 but still is tragic love story.

 

Another thing working in AOTC’s favor: Natalie Portman is an absolute smokeshow throughout.

 

Lucas main problems like a director and writer are dialogues and directing actors, both things are very important to AOTC bc of romance, so became evident that he had least ability in this area, A New Hope have a same problems, but for our lucky don't have a romance that need of good direction and script. Outside of romance not well constructed, AOTC it's good, the anothers arc of plot: show Anakin like a complex young man, Obi-Wan's mission, Palpatine starting the war and we realize that the Republic and the Jedi are falling in a trap, was well made. The end let me nervous, it's just feel like everything would end up badly, and Master Yoda feel the same.

 

Indeed. She looks so sexy and hot in that movie. Beeing a 15 year old when the movie was released I was very attracted to her. The white battle outfit from the movies finale favors her body very much!

@Subtext Mining amazing post!

 

So, I was only about a year older than Anakin in the film when AOTC came out. And I could barely contain myself, seeing Padme in that episode. So I do NOT blame Anakin, hormonal teenager as he was, for being all awkward creepy and desperate in front of her. I mean, remember-it's not like Anakin had much experience with girls LOL! And many (not all, but many) teenage boys very much DO get whiny and act immature when things don't go their way. IMO he had to have this awkward, wavering, unstable personality in order to make his ultimate turn to the Darkside believable. I've said it before and I'll say it again: if GL gave us an honorable Anakin that was the strong hero-type character (like Luke), then his turn would've been hard to swallow.

I'll be the first to acknowledge the overly-basic dialogue wasn't that great in AOTC. But it wasn't all bad-there were some good moments as well. Combine that with all the other great moments in the film, and I'm willing to forgive any clunkiness in dialogue.

 

This brings up an interesting question, since the majority of Jedi were taken on as apprentices from a very early age, whether this system would have rendered them permanently in a situation where they felt inadequate or awkward with the other gender(s) or if they Jedi training academy did anything to prevent that.

 

I think AOTC Anakin is the boldest and most unique protagonist in all of the SW films. For anyone who says "Kylo Ren/Ben Solo should have been the main character in the ST because he is more interesting," which I don't particularly agree with, but I'm like, "Hey, we got that 17 years ago." And AOTC Anakin is a far more interesting character than Kylo could ever hope to be.

 

Yeah Natalie is a bombshell in Clones. Combine that and her outfits with her naturally beautiful face and smile and you got a teenage boys dream. I really had a teenage crush on Padme and Natalie back in 2002/2003. And I agree: I was very awkward and desperate in front of girls I liked as a teen. I could relate to Anakin very much and I can to this day!

BTW: I think that Episode II has the best theatrical Poster of the entire movie saga, maybe equalled by the Ep V poster. Drew Struzan outdid himself. I LOVE the way Anakin and Padme are portrayed together, how Obi-Wan is kind of the guardian of them, the Clones rising from inside the poster...just a masterpiece. I wished they had used Drew for the ST too!

 

@KyleKartan, I agree that poster is amazing. Like a poster you'd see for a film in the '40s or something. It really exemplifies the romantic feel that the film represents. It's reminiscient of the OT posters. I also agree that the ST posters seemed a little too...overly-stylish. The TFA poster isn't bad though...

 

TFA is honestly the worst from all of the Saga. I'd rank the ST Posters TLJ, TROS, TFA. TFA is just so very full.

Nothing compares to the Struzan work though. I mean he also did the Potter movies 1 and 2 ans they look amazing and then the posters just got more generic with 3 to 8 (6 and 8 had some great ones though). Iam glad that Lucas hired him for the SE and PT!

 

His dialogues were always technical, and, moreover, since the beginning of TPM you can find screenwriting tips in them. For example, there is a technique "use an outsider for exposition". When Qui-Gon answers to Obi-Wan, he doesn't say "I think the negotiations will be short." He says: "These Federation types are cowards. The negotiations will be short." Later he uses the other screenwriting dialogue technique - callback. "You were right about one thing, Master. The negotiations were short." It combines with Obi-Wan's unique voice "humour".

His directing is also very technical.

 

The poster is clear allusion to this of Dr.Zhivago, I think exactly from there came the idea of calling the Naboo lake settlement Varykino. I love the poster, it clearly emphasize on the "romance" part of the movie which would become crucial for protagonist life (and tragedy).
I like also that Anakin and Padme are "behind" as their love could never be announced in public and practically on the frontline is Jango and Obi Wan is behind, trying to gain an advantage in his investigation but as always happens he is one step behind.
I like also how bright is the image: AOTC has so much light in it. There are already glimpses of darkness in the end of the movie but also it contains one of the brightest scenes in the Saga (a difference from ROTS where deliberately most of the scenes are dark and the bright ones are exceptions).
P.S. Anakin is awkward as a teenager with low social experience should be. But a difference from many 'hormonal' teens he gives Padme the space to breathe and he actually listen to her. This is very rare in real world and I would say, is a rare gem. This makes his personal tragedy even bigger: Vader is socially skilled and sophisticated but already had lost this strong empathy and ability to actually listen and respect the other personal space.

 

A movie that would now be far lesser than the other Lucas ones though still miles above anything else since.

 

"AOTC without bad dialogue and romance scenes. How good is AOTC for you now?"

As good as it´s always been since it never had bad dialoque and romance scenes in the first place.

 

Nope. It never did.

 

Attack of the Clones is easily my least favorite out of all the films in the Skywalker Saga, and yes, some of the bad dialogue and romance scenes are... rough, to say the least, but I still don’t know that I’d cut them out. As others have pointed out, they make the film what it is. Anakin and Padmé’s relationship never would’ve worked or been convincing at all if it completely mirrored Han and Leia’s, and I don’t have a problem with that. Their romance in the film was absolutely necessary.

The only thing I would really change is some of the creepiness/awkwardness between Anakin and Padmé. For the most part, I think a lot of their relationship works, but some of the stuff Anakin says to Padmé isn’t representative of the type of awkwardness a lovesick nineteen-year-old experiences. It was a bit disturbing and I think some of that should be cut and/or rewritten. I just rewatched Attack of the Clones not too long ago and I cannot believe how bad the scene is where he’s staring at her and Padmé has to tell him to stop because it’s making her uncomfortable. As an audience member, I felt like saying, “Me too!”

But like I said, MOST of it works. I would definitely alter some of the dialogue between them because it’s just bad. For the most part, though, the Anakin/Padmé relationship is exactly what it needs to be in Attack of the Clones. The way I see it, in spite of the fact that I enjoy it FAR more than Attack of the Clones, I really think The Phantom Menace is very much to blame for a lot of the issues with the prequels because it feels like it could’ve been condensed (or eliminated entirely) to make way for more breathing room in the overall narrative. That’s largely why The Clone Wars was received so well — it allowed for more character development that was minimized in Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith for the sake of telling the story at a faster pace than it should’ve been told, if that makes sense. So, considering Attack of the Clones had to build upon what was offered in The Phantom Menace to get the story to where it needed to be for Revenge of the Sith and the Original Trilogy, it largely (though not entirely) succeeds in how it tackles the Anakin/Padmé relationship, and I think it should be commended for that.

 

Her arena outfit is the hottest from any SW film.

 

A very great love story in classic Italian style "Dante & Beatrice".

 

Well thought out and well put! I agree with everything you said 100%

 

The scene itself where Anakin admits he murdered sand people has the Emperor's theme played over it. Lucas obviously wants the audience to see this as a terrible thing. The fact that Padme basically doesn't react at all to it except to tell Anakin, "To be angry is to be human" seems weird. And it doesn't do the trilogy any favors that she finds out Anakin killed more kids in the next movie and acts like there's no way that could possibly happen.